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Zorn List Digest      Wednesday, December 2 1998      Volume 02 : Number 541



In this issue:
-
       Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
       Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
       Zorn In Argentina?
       Zorn Publishing
       Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
       Re: Celluloid
       Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
       Re: Garlands
       Re: Garlands
       age: innovation
       Re: age: innovation
       Zorn in Argentina?
       Peter Garland's "Nana + Victorio"
       Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
       _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
       Re: Age/Innovation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:04:18 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?

Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

> I really have to differ with the age vs. quality graph (dunno, perhaps my
> mail reader skewed the low numbers at the end of the age bracket...).
> While I agree that innovation is found almost always found early in an
> artistic career, the later works often bring a sense of transcendance which
> takes a lifetime to acquire.

You might be right and, as I was writing that, I was thinking of some
writers to whom it doesn't seem to apply for just that reason, but I
still see it as a useful, if depressing, rule of thumb.

> I admit I'm thinking more of classical music
> than pop, but we really haven't had pop music that long, and unfortunately
> pop musicians get involved in life shortening distractions like drugs, fast
> living, etc., in addition to the financial rewards of rehashing the works
> which made them famous (look at all the middle-aged rockers doing revival
> tours).

Um....unfortunately?  ;-)

> In classical music, I'm thinking of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert,
> Wagner, Carter, even Cage (whose late works I'm only beginning to
> appreciate), in addition to many famous conductors and performers who are
> well advanced in years.  But in pop, look at Coltrane's late works for an
> example of transcendance.  Zorn hasn't reached that age bracket yet, but I
> look forward to his output, and hope I'm still around to hear it.

Hey, Zorn's 45; Coltrane was 41 when he died. I'd agree that his '64-'67
period was both extremely innovative and beautiful. I always wondered
whether, had he lived, he would've gone on to greater things or (heresy
warning) whether he would've kind of followed the path Tyner (or Wayne
Shorter!) has taken since the mid '70's, which, IMHO, is not too
awe-inspiring. You never know.

By the way, though I take your point on some of the composers you cited,
wasn't Mozart only 37 when he died?

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:55:21 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?

At 10:04 PM 12/1/98 -0500, Brian Olewnick wrote:
>
>By the way, though I take your point on some of the composers you cited,
>wasn't Mozart only 37 when he died?
>

Well, yes, but my point was that the music he wrote at the end of his life,
after his belated discovery of Bach (e.g., the Requiem and last
symphonies), was transcendant compared even to music of his mature years.
With Mozart, the time scale was just shortened a little.

- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:28:40 -0300
From: Gabriel Lichtmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn In Argentina?

Can someone on the list confirm if Mr. Z. is playing in Buenos Aire this
month, and if so, where can I buy the tickets?
ThanX

                                        Gabriel Lichtmann

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:45:06 -0500
From: Risser Family <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn Publishing

Okay, we were in the midst of a discussion about publishing stuffs on Zorn albums, when suddenly Caleb threw this curveball:

> Theoretically, you might want scores of the underlying
> works, but that is quite rare these days (and the scores are usually
> easy to find - there's even a Zorn catalogue now!).

Where is there a Zorn catalog?  I've been trying for a long time to find scores to... countless things by him.
Could someone please enlighten?

Peter

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:39:02 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne

In a message dated 12/1/98 9:48:33 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<William York wrote:

> Wouldn't Cecil Taylor be another exception to this?  I've only heard
> parts from each decade but compared with Ornette for example I think his
> later work compares very well with his earlier stuff.   Maybe not as
> shockingly innovative but refining what he does.  I like his more recent
> stuff more than a lot the 60s stuff, FWIW.

Cecil is at least _somewhat_ of an exception, in that the general
quality of his work remains consistently high, but (and of course, this
is just my opinion) his work from '66-'73, from say, 'Unit Structures'
to 'Silent Tongues', when he was about 30-38, stands a notch above even
the best of his later work. But, aside from a bit of mellowing (the same
might be said of Derek Bailey, who's another trend-bucker), has the
essential content of Taylor's work changed much since @1970? I don't
think so. I don't mean this, at all, as a criticism, it's just that the
'innovation' aspect which, again, I don't consider to be of prime
importance, is no longer very present. The astonished reaction that one
might have had upon first hearing 'Unit Structures' in 1966 isn't
likely, it seems to me, to be repeated with regards to Taylor. Which, I
stress again, is fine.>>

I like some of Cecil's more recent stuff (Olu Iwa, Always A Pleasure) as much
as anything he's ever done. two examples of artists who have moved in new,
interesting directions in their fifties are Morton Feldman whose later, longer
works are much more powerful than his earlier work to my ears, and Evan
Parker, who just over the last few years has begun to work with electronics in
various contexts, which, with the exception of Process and Reality, he had
never done before on record. what Parker is trying to do with his
electroacoustic ensemble is as innovative as his solo records were in the
early seventies, again, in my opinion.

of course there is some truth to Brian's theory. I just never thought of it as
an age factor, just that people get burnt out or run out of ideas. I just
think that every artist is different. Tom Waits made what I think is his best
record, _Bone Machine_, 25 years into his career, and hasn't put out a real
followup (I don't count _The Black Rider_) in six years. Captain Beefheart was
making some of his most interesting music when he quit music for painting in
the early eighties. Charlie Rich made easily his best record, _Pictures and
Paintings_, 35 or 40 years into his career, because he finally found a
producer who understood what he was trying to do and let him do it.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:33:11 PST
From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Celluloid

i assume john matarazzo owns the whole thing.

peace,
dave
Bill Laswell, Eraldo Bernocchi and Lori Carson Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
Mick Harris Discography coming soon...


>Anyone out there know who now owns the rights to the Celluloid
>catalog. I'm not interested in the Laswell stuff, but the
>Dance/Hip-Hop catalog. My understanding is that Jean Karakos sold it >a
few years back a

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:43:58 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?

"Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
> But in pop, look at Coltrane's late works for an
> example of transcendance.  Zorn hasn't reached that age bracket yet, but I
> look forward to his output, and hope I'm still around to hear it.

Actually, Zorn is now older than Coltrane got to be...

- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:47:15 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Garlands

Brian Olewnick wrote:

> Has David Garland, whose 'Control Songs' I just got and enjoyed,
> released any other albums under his own name?

Yes, an exceedingly rare but oddly delightful album of Brian Wilson songs
called "I Guess I Just Wasn't Made for These Times," released only in
Japan.  It used to be available from WFMU's catalog but I think they ran
out a while back.  Also, he had a cooperative trio with Ikue Mori and
Cinnie Cole called The Worlds of Love (which was actually the core of the
band on the Brian Wilson disc) that recorded one album released in 1989 on
the Review label, not available on CD to the best of my knowledge.

[ZORN CONTENT]  This won't mean anything to non-New Yorkers, but Garland's
WNYC show "Spinning on Air" is also very special.  It's only on Friday
nights now, but I remember shortly after I moved here, it was on every
night, and when Zorn celebrated his 40th birthday by playing every single
night during September 1993 at the (old) Knitting Factory, David broadcast
almost all of those shows.

> Can anyone comment on Peter Garland's Avant release? I came across his
> name again in the new Harry Partch biography (required reading, by the
> way) and wonder if his work bears any relation to HP's.

To my ear, no.  Tom Pratt's summary was very good.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:13:53 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Garlands

In a message dated 12/1/98 10:32:43 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Not in the least. Peter Garland is one of my good friend's uncles actually
so I know quite a lot about him. However, I haven't heard the Avant disc
but I was just given a copy of the one on New Albion called 'Walk Into
Beauty' which has two solo piano pieces performed by Aki Takahashi and
another piece performed by the Abel/Steinberg/Winant Trio. His music is
very influenced by Native American music and demonstrates a simplified
structure. Much of his music since the 70's could be called "a return to
radical consonance". Almost new-agey if that doesn't scare you off... sort
of like Cage's early piano works like "In A Landscape" (but of course very
different... you know what I mean) .You can find a very informative
biography and discography at the New Albion website
(http://www.newalbion.com/artists/garlandp/).>>

I have both the New Albion record and the Avant one, and I would agree with
Tom's description of his music. but the Avant record (which is less than a
half hour long) contains the 20 minute tour de force six-part Nana + Victorio.
It's a solo percussion piece for William Winant and easily the best thing on
either of the two discs.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:30:34 -0800
From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: age: innovation

When I saw the comment relating age to innovation, I immediately thought of
Matise, who said something along the lines of "Thank god I lived past the
age of 50, or nobody would've remembered me". Drawing and painting his
entire life, he spent most of the early part of his career making clumsy,
awkward work. This is actually a pretty common scenario.

Another artist who has found innovation growing along with his age is Tom
Waits.

Todd

NP: Udi Yorgo Bacanos "s/t" (Turkish ud player)



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:07:31 -0300
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: age: innovation

Todd Bramy wrote:
>
> When I saw the comment relating age to innovation, I immediately thought of
> Matise, who said something along the lines of "Thank god I lived past the
> age of 50, or nobody would've remembered me".
> Another artist who has found innovation growing along with his age is Tom
> Waits.

And Sam Beckett wrote "...Godot" and became famous after 50. Innovated
for decades after 50.

R
- --
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 98 10:49:34 -0300
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn in Argentina?

Gabriel Lichtmann wrote:

>Can someone on the list confirm if Mr. Z. is playing in Buenos Aires

Mr. Z. and Masada won't play in Argentina.
I read in a local newspaper that Zorn's reason for not coming to our
country was the distance (???).
I don't know any official information from Experimenta's organization on
this subject.
Off the record, Dave Douglas was very sorry about this, but he said it
wasn't his group, but Zorn's.

Hugo (still very dissapointed)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:10:31 -0500
From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Peter Garland's "Nana + Victorio"

>From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
>Can anyone comment on Peter Garland's Avant release?

I picked up Peter Garland's "Nana + Victorio" on Avant
when it came out in 1992.  It has six tracks for solo
percussionist (William Winant) and one track for
vibraphone and piano  (Winant and Julie Steinberg).
It's a pretty fine release and I have given the
vibraphone/piano track repeated listenings over the years.
You asked if it bore any resemblance to Harry Partch
and, to my ears, it does not.  However, it does bear
strong similitaries to "Music for a Summer Evening
(Makrokosmos III)" (for 2 pianos and 2 percussionists)
by George Crumb (1974).  I like the Crumb piece more
but both are good.

Like many of the early Avant composer-series releases,
(Hyla, Oswald, Shea...), the Garland cd is short,
clocking in at about 25 minutes.

David K.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:17:21 -0500
From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?

>At 11:39 AM 12/1/98 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>>     Obviously, this is a generalization and abstraction, but I think it
>>     largely holds true that most innovative work (in almost _all_ fields,
>>     not just art) is accomplished by folk in their 20's and 30's (spoken
>>     as a 44-year old painter). It's pretty rare that you find someone in
>>     their 50's coming up with ideas that "shake the foundations" of the
>>     area in which they work

>I really have to differ with the age vs. quality graph
>I admit I'm thinking more of classical music

And literature, and architecture, and politics, and philosophy. I find a
kind of heroism in the continued creative output of someone who's fifty or
sixty years old precisely because of the intrinsic appeal that the work of
young people has for our culture.  We tend to allow our young to eat our
old, which is perverse.  I too am looking foreward to Zorn's next sixty or
seventy records (which should take him well into his late 40's).

Marc



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:42:20 -0500 (EST)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)

> - -- whereas Naked City, for example, was more about existential issues,
> for the want of a less inadequate term -- and even the one even
> vaguely "political" (in a broad sense of the term) Naked City record,
> Radio (if I'm interpreting the bondage photo in the cover right), was
> still basically music-related, while Masada is about things like
> martyrdom and genocide and cultural memory, and if Zorn wants to [cut]

Could you explain more about this interpretation of the Radio cover b/c I
asked about this a week or so ago and I still don't see much of a
connection with the music.

Also, if anyone could tell me something about the Ganelin Trio (Russian
jazz group) that would be helpful - like about their recordings.  i've
read about them and while their is no downtown connection it seems like
they might bear some resemblence to other people talked about here.  The
Penguin guide is more confusing than anything else to say, so I'm fuzzy as
to what Kind of resemblence, but it seems interesting.  Reply off the
list if you want,

tHanks, WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:28:08 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Age/Innovation


     Let me use Jon's note to clarify some things (Hey, even if my idea has
     a few holes, at least it's generated some, IMHO, interesting
     discussion).

>I like some of Cecil's more recent stuff (Olu Iwa, Always A Pleasure) as much
>as anything he's ever done.

When I refer to "innovation", I'm being pretty strict and exclusive in my
definition. I'm talking about some quality that, at least, causes one to
exclaim, "Whoa! What the hell is that?", if not actually hurt one's neck
whipping around towards the speaker. Our man Zorn's achieved this at least
twice (sticking to recorded examples) with 'The Big Gundown' and 'Naked City'
and perhaps, more subtly, with projects spun out of Masada. Cecil might have
made his marks with 'Unit Structures' and, say, 'Indent'. I like 'Olu Iwa' a
great deal also (haven't heard the other yet), but I don't hear anything
_substantively_ different from his earlier work.

> two examples of artists who have moved in new, interesting directions in
>their fifties are Morton Feldman whose later, longer works are much more
>powerful than his earlier work to my ears,

I'm no Feldman expert, but it seems that the breakthrough in his work came
sometime in the late '60's--early '70's, the move to what I think of as a
"complex stasis", surely an innovation. I'm guessing (don't have his bio
around) that he was in his mid to late 30's at the time. He expanded on this
innovation very beautifully in later years.

>and Evan Parker, who just over the last few years has begun to work with
>electronics in various contexts, which, with the exception of Process and
>Reality, he had never done before on record. what Parker is trying to do with
>his electroacoustic ensemble is as innovative as his solo records were in the
>early seventies, again, in my opinion.

To me (and again, I don't mean this perjoratively), Parker's electro-acoustic
works seems to be his elaborations on the really innovative work done by
Richard Teitelbaum (and, I suppose, others) with interactive computer systems.
I might be being overly picky, but I'm not sure I'd credit Parker with the
real innovation in this case.

>of course there is some truth to Brian's theory. I just never thought of it
>as an age factor, just that people get burnt out or run out of ideas.

Sure, that's another way of putting it. Most great artists have "only" one,
maybe two, new, wonderful ideas. Which, I think I have to repeat, is _fine_;
we should be very happy with that!

>I just think that every artist is different. Tom Waits made what I think is
>his best record, _Bone Machine_, 25 years into his career, and hasn't put out
>a real followup (I don't count _The Black Rider_) in six years. Captain
>Beefheart was making some of his most interesting music when he quit music
>for painting in the early eighties.

I think Van Vliet's output from 'Shiny Beast' on might appear better only
after those awful mid 70's releases; ie, his creative path took a sharper than
normal drop midway through. But, IMHO, his last work doesn't really approach,
on either the innovation or quality scale, TMR and LMDOB.

In rock, Zappa is a near archetypal example of my theory. Other musicians of
talent like Van Vliet, Fripp, Eno also seem to fit the bill pretty well. In
fact, Gil Evans and jazz influence talk aside, given the collection of songs
on 'First Rays...', I'm not so sure Hendrix wouldn't have ended up
regurgitating variations on 'Crosstown Traffic' for the rest of his career.

>Charlie Rich made easily his best record, _Pictures and Paintings_, 35 or 40
>years into his career, because he finally found a producer who understood
>what he was trying to do and let him do it.

     I don't know Rich's work at all, but it kinda sounds like this work
     was brewing for a long while before he got the chance to record it.
     Often, a given artist will achieve public recognition for innovative
     work late in his/her life (someone cited Beckett), but if you look at
     the actual work, you generally find that the seeds had been sown far
     earlier.

     I just saw Marc Downing's note. Along with Caleb's critique, I
     should've explained that my (overly simplistic) graph was meant to
     describe a "great" artist, so that the relatively low range late in
     life might still be both intrinsically beautiful and far "superior"
     to, say, what Billy Joel is going to be producing at that age. In
     fact, though I suppose Mr. Joel's career might well follow a similar
     arc, I don't have a small enough typeface to accurately portray its
     level! And, as Marc points out, age does, happily, bring along
     seasoning which might ultimately have as much, or more, value as
     innovation. I too, expect fine things form Zorn in the future; I just
     don't expect to hurt my neck.

     OK, I'll shut up now.

     Brian Olewnick



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #541
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