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Zorn List Digest      Tuesday, November 24 1998      Volume 02 : Number 534



In this issue:
-
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       RE: good ol' mike patton
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #533  <good ol' Mike Patton>
       Ayler @ Slugs
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       Re: cover art, sound quality (was something about Leng Tche)
       Re: good ol' mike patton
       Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN
       Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       RE:  DiCaprio, sorry
       noise?
       dogon a.d.
       Re:  noise?
       Re: noise?
       RE: DiCaprio, sorry
       Re: dogon a.d.
       Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN
       Re: noise?
       Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:09:29 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Benjamin Pequet)
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

>about the story of Tom Verlaine and Baudelaire actually did seem to enhance

Paul Verlaine.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:39:02 -0400
From: [e-mail] (bob burnett)
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

At 5:50 PM 11/23/98, Christian Heslop wrote:
>Absinthe is a fantastic album.


BB>>>Thanks-that's just what I was hoping to hear-it was listed as a Naked
City release in an online catalog.  I had no idea it had any relation to
Verlaine (and maybe Rimbaud instead of Baudelaire?).  That makes it
essential!



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:44:06 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

Thanks.It's been awhile.I should just insist that you're wrong and start a
thread of people attempting to prove me wrong. I'll igonore and continue to
insist until I'm banned. Looking at your message I anticipate that you will
receive a stern lecture from Mr. Rizzi. I always forget to clip msgs that I
reply to. If you had replied privately I wouldn't have to write a public
acknowledgment and then lengthen it to avoid a reprimand. This is so
terribly complicated.... ; ) I really hate those things but I manage to
offend people when I don't use them
- ----------
> From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.
> Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:09 PM
>
> >about the story of Tom Verlaine and Baudelaire actually did seem to
enhance
>
> Paul Verlaine.
>
>
>
>
> -

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:48:23 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

Alright, I really may have messed this one up...When I said I knew a little
about the story I really did mean a very terribly small amount. All I did
was see an absolutely horrible film called "Total Eclipse" that covered the
affair of  "Paul or Tom" Verlaine and "Somebody I guess I don't remember".
I'm so embarassed. Don't see the movie...it has Leo DiCaprio in it, but he
does do some buggering!
- ----------
> From: bob burnett <[e-mail]>
> To: Christian Heslop <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.
> Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 5:39 PM
>
> At 5:50 PM 11/23/98, Christian Heslop wrote:
> >Absinthe is a fantastic album.
>
>
> BB>>>Thanks-that's just what I was hoping to hear-it was listed as a
Naked
> City release in an online catalog.  I had no idea it had any relation to
> Verlaine (and maybe Rimbaud instead of Baudelaire?).  That makes it
> essential!
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:48:33 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: good ol' mike patton

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ken Waxman
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 2:26 PM

> His other piece with an endless bank of amplifiers magnifying his screams
> was just irritating  and offensive. It wasn't music, per se and it wasn't
> much else either.
>
> And before someone climbs on a high horse and accuses me to being
> anti-noise music or some such, let me rely some of my background.

Not to accuse you of anything, but the folks you've cited "aren't noise
enough;" I think Patton is trying to achieve something like what Whitehouse,
Merzbow and other (mostly Japanese) noise artists do. But somehow the music
from the last two Patton concerts I've seen haven't been as, um, textured? I
don't know; it's kind of hard to describe Masami Akita's layering of
cacophony, or the density (if not relentless monotony) of Aube's
compositions. Patton's stuff just seems more random and on-the-fly somehow.
Actually, what I enjoyed most from that Zorn/Patton/Lombardo concert was
Lombardo's drumming...

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:59:28 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Benjamin Pequet)
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

Maybe in the movie with di caprio they translated the name of Verlaine. Sorry.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:06:23 -0500
From: stila <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #533  <good ol' Mike Patton>

Ummmmmm.... in regards to Patton's entourage at slim's--


I'm sure it was the guitarist from Melt Banana.
I would presume the dude on turntables to be a member of the Skratch
Piklz but..... that's just a guess...........


stila.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:15:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "David J. Strauss" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ayler @ Slugs

Concerning the various configurations of the Ayler @ Slugs material:
There's a German semi-legit single disc that contains both LPs worth of
material in order, I believe, with liner notes by Peter Brotzman. It's
called In Memory of Albert Ayler, or something similar. Picked it up in a
Prague meat shop for $3.

DS
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:54:50 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

This whole Verlaine thing has really gotten out of hand. For anyone who may
have seen my response to Benjamin's HELPFUL correction-I'm sorry, I was
being ironic. It was just a little self-mocking humour at the gaffe that I
made.I'm very sorry that anyone took me seriously. I even put one of those
silly little smiley faces on the end of the message as a safety measure. I
apparently can not express myself well through msg format. That's
understandable, I'm learning Korean right now in an immersive program and
have been told by my instructors (all natives) that I might be too
sarcastic for Koreans. Which brings me to Pansori music- I just heard some
of this today and remembered an earlier thread on Pansori. Interesting
stuff- very unique sounds. Give it a try.

- ----------
> From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.
> Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 7:29 PM
> 1. I tell you not to embarass you but because you might care to know
> 2. I would never dare now post this on the list, though I find this more
> relevant to the list than for example who some guitarist with an allergy
> mask could or might maybe possibly have been.
>
> Sincerely,  Benjamin

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:47:31 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cover art, sound quality (was something about Leng Tche)

William York wrote:

> but what would it take for someone to reissue those
> Arista/Freedom CDs properly (aside from Cecil Taylor's Nefertiti)?

Owners of master tapes who gave a damn about the product they foisted upon the
market?

You wouldn't believe what Revenant had to go through to get "Nefertiti," and to make
it as great as it is.  And then D.A. had the nerve to release half the material
domestically as "Trance" this year anyway.

Tim Berne and I have been unsuccessfully attempting to get "Dogon A.D." from D.A.
for a few years now.

The sad thing is that some of the early D.A. Freedom transfers, like Ayler's
"Vibrations" and Taylor's "Silent Tongues," are actually pretty nice.  Dont' know
where things started going south, or why.  But it's a damn sorry way to treat one of
the more important catalogs.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:21:59 +0100 (MET)
From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: good ol' mike patton

I didn't think I would ever read a comment like this on the Zorn list:

> It wasn't music, per se and it wasn't much else either.

Anyway, I think Patton is having a hard time because, obviously, he comes
from a rock background, having played in FNM for so many years (and FNM is
not to be taken seriously by avant-gardists and jazz snobs alike, right?).
However, his work with Mr. Bungle, especially on the second album (and a
third being recorded at this moment), should give him a lot of credit. Also,
remember he stood in for Eye on the Naked City European tour of '91?

To me it seems that Patton is really trying (too) hard to be part of the
whole circle around Zorn. He needs to grow a bit in his new role. However,
his previous two attempts on Tzadik both were worthwhile, in my opinion,
especially the "ADULT THEMES", which is a marvellous collection of vocal
experimentations. Also, he's proven to be a fairly good arrangeur, given his
work on the Great Jewish Music albums. I'll give him the benefit of the
doubt, and just wait and see what happens. I heard from William Winant that
the Patton/Winant/Lombardo trio was going to record a Zorn piece for Tzadik,
and that the Winant/Patton duo were recording a CD for Tzadik as well.

Frankco.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:53:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN

you spelled attribute incorrectly


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:54:31 -0300
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN

Corey Marc Fogel wrote:
>
> you spelled attribute incorrectly
>
> -

You forgot to capitalize your "Y" and put a period at the end of your
sentence.

Also, I'd be interested in hearing everyone's take on the Sonny Clark
Memorial disc. Also, does anyone have any quotes or references from
Zorn on his use of violent imagery? I "like" it, appreciate the
"edge," but wonder what his reasoning is on this.

Thanks, and watch those typing errors,
RL
- --
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD
BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:23:41 -0400
From: [e-mail] (bob burnett)
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

>I'm so embarassed. Don't see the movie...it has Leo DiCaprio in it, but he
>does do some buggering!

BB>>>>Hey-no big deal at all-you steered me right by giving me the Absinthe
review!

I have a friend who informs me leo DeCaprio's naked backside is a highly
coveted gay internet acquisition!



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:42:33 -0500
From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:  DiCaprio, sorry

Heard last night that Leo will star in the Chet Baker Movie...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:31:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: noise?

On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> <<And before someone climbs on a high horse and accuses me to being
> anti-noise music or some such, let me rely some of my background. I've
> heard and appreciated "Ascension", works by Cecil Taylor and Albert
> Ayler and Zorn. I've seen and enjoyed David S. Ware, Charles Gayle, Prima
> Materi, Archie Shepp in the 1960sa and the Little Huey Ork; I was
> impressed when I saw the Soft Machine in 1968 and with the original
> Sex Pistols tunes, "19th Nervous Breakdown", "Brainwashed", the early
> Mothers of Invention's "outside" experiments and in 1967 sat right in
> front of Eric Clapton's amp when I saw Cream in a small NY club.>>
>
> none of this is noise, though, and none of it is more than very indirectly
> related to what Patton was, albeit very poorly, trying to do.

sounds like semantics to me.  where do you think noise came from?

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:49:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: dogon a.d.

On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Steve Smith wrote:

> Tim Berne and I have been unsuccessfully attempting to get "Dogon A.D."
> from D.A. for a few years now.

i've got a copy of this on the mbari label.  i assumed that hemphill put
it out himself, so how did they get the master tapes?

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:25:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  noise?

In a message dated 11/24/98 9:34:20 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<sounds like semantics to me.  where do you think noise came from?>>

while there may be some superficial similarities with the wilder stretches of
bands like the Velvet Underground, Destroy All Monsters, and the Stooges, I
don't think that there's any sort of direct link between acts like Merzbow and
Masonna and the rock tradition. Albert Ayler and Charles Gayle can be traced
back in some ways to Charlie Parker and Lester Young, I suppose, but
appreciating one of the latter doesn't necessarily help you understand what
Ayler or Gayle is trying to do.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:05:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: noise?

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> while there may be some superficial similarities with the wilder stretches of
> bands like the Velvet Underground, Destroy All Monsters, and the Stooges, I
> don't think that there's any sort of direct link between acts like Merzbow and
> Masonna and the rock tradition. Albert Ayler and Charles Gayle can be traced
> back in some ways to Charlie Parker and Lester Young, I suppose, but
> appreciating one of the latter doesn't necessarily help you understand what
> Ayler or Gayle is trying to do.

1) if it weren't for coltrane's "ascension" and other similar sonic
experiments (like amp feedback), there wouldn't be any context for
anything like merzbow or whitehouse.  those guys learned noise from
the cacophony of free improvisation and they too traffic in free
improvisation.  merzbow's great and all, but he's not unprecedented.
actually, in a recent wire interview with merzbow, he explained how his
musical mode of operation was derived from hearing hendrix's noise-damaged
guitar solos.  merzbow wanted to isolate that singular aspect of
hendrix's music and expand on it.  i would say that that is a pretty direct
link to the rock tradition.

2) an entirely different subject, but i think that an appreciation of
jazz lineage (for example: charlie parker > ornette coleman > john
coltrane > albert ayler) helps to explicate the logic of ayler and the
post-ayler saxophonists.  ayler didn't create in a vacuum and he was
very influenced by the jazz which preceded him.  just because ayler
dispensed with many of the conventions doesn't mean that the
conventions didn't inspire him.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:15:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: DiCaprio, sorry

Sounds perfect. He can't play the trumpet or sing either. As for acting ...

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]





On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, hijk wrote:

> Heard last night that Leo will star in the Chet Baker Movie...
>
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:20:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dogon a.d.

The original tapes were sold (leased?) to Freedom in the mid-1970s
and "Dogon A.D." came out as an LP on Arista/Freedom, which I own.

Considering the length of it and "Coon Bid'Ness" (the original non-PC
name for the "Reflections" sesion), why doesn't someone (Steve?) combine
them both on a single CD with new notes etc.

One of my many suggestions

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]


On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Brent Burton wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> > Tim Berne and I have been unsuccessfully attempting to get "Dogon A.D."
> > from D.A. for a few years now.
>
> i've got a copy of this on the mbari label.  i assumed that hemphill put
> it out himself, so how did they get the master tapes?
>
> b
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:26:02 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:54:31 -0300  Rick Lopez wrote:
>
> Also, I'd be interested in hearing everyone's take on the Sonny Clark
> Memorial disc. Also, does anyone have any quotes or references from
> Zorn on his use of violent imagery? I "like" it, appreciate the
> "edge," but wonder what his reasoning is on this.

It is one of the signs that prove John's honesty. John has been pissed for
years at how misleading ads and packagings are. For example, you buy a can of
cat food with the picture of a cat on it and you would expect that it is food
made out of cats for cannibal cats. Of course, you know that it is not the
case. Because of this sad situation of misleading consummers (that we all
know are the most important thing in the USA), John decided to use for his
records graphic designs that would not mislead potential records buyers. By
seeing some S/M pictures on a record, a new-age amateur would unlikely buy the
product; with some torture scenes, it is unlikely that the record would end
up entertaining bachelor pad parties. Less confusion and a higher consummer
satisfaction, this is all what John was looking for. As you see, it is as
simple as that.

    Patrice (always happy to help).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:31:59 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: noise?

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:05:51 -0500 (EST)  Brent Burton wrote:
>
> 1) if it weren't for coltrane's "ascension" and other similar sonic
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There would be no ASCENSION without FREE JAZZ.

Also, MICROPHONY

> experiments (like amp feedback), there wouldn't be any context for
> anything like merzbow or whitehouse.  those guys learned noise from
> the cacophony of free improvisation and they too traffic in free

Not sure about that. Jazz is there definitely for the improvisation element
(that kind of disappeared from classical music), but I would expect more
from the following:

Varese's interpolations from DESERTS (1954)
Stockhausen's MICROPHONIES (1966?)

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:33:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: WHY ZORN IS ZORN

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> It is one of the signs that prove John's honesty. John has been pissed for
> years at how misleading ads and packagings are. For example, you buy a can of
> cat food with the picture of a cat on it and you would expect that it is food
> made out of cats for cannibal cats. Of course, you know that it is not the
> case. Because of this sad situation of misleading consummers (that we all
> know are the most important thing in the USA), John decided to use for his
> records graphic designs that would not mislead potential records buyers. By
> seeing some S/M pictures on a record, a new-age amateur would unlikely buy the
> product; with some torture scenes, it is unlikely that the record would end
> up entertaining bachelor pad parties. Less confusion and a higher consummer
> satisfaction, this is all what John was looking for. As you see, it is as
> simple as that.

Hmm... and "Music for Children" is truth in packaging ?-)

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #534
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