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Zorn List Digest      Tuesday, November 24 1998      Volume 02 : Number 535



In this issue:
-
       Zorn Packaging
       Re: noise?
       Re: leng t'che etc.
       Re: Zorn Packaging
       Re: Dogon A.D. [was: sound quality (was something about Leng Tche)]
       Re: Zorn Packaging
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #534
       Absinthe
       Re:  leng t'che etc.
       truth in packaging
       lamp shea
       Re: Zorn Packaging
       patton's circle status
       Re: lamp shea
       Re: Zorn Packaging/severedlimbs/tonguedskulls/etcetera
       Re: dogon a.d.
       Jobim - No Zorn content
       Re: dogon a.d.
       Re:  RE: DiCaprio, sorry
       Re: noise?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:18:01 -0500
From: Troy Whitfield <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn Packaging

Patrice Roussel wrote:

> It [Zorn cover art] is one of the signs that prove
> John's honesty. John has been pissed for years at how
> misleading ads and packagings are.

Why not print representative sections of the score on the cover then?
That should be less ambiguous (but probably less interesting) than Man
Ray photographs etc..

I'm not being completely serious, of course.  Honesty just seems like a
less credible rationale for ones choice of cover art than say, taste.

Troy

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:18:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: noise?

hmmm, it seems like a partial retraction is in order from me.

<<actually, in a recent wire interview with merzbow, he explained how his
musical mode of operation was derived from hearing hendrix's noise-damaged
guitar solos.  merzbow wanted to isolate that singular aspect of
hendrix's music and expand on it.  i would say that that is a pretty direct
link to the rock tradition.>>

looking up this article (May '97), Mr. Akita is in fact quoted as saying "In
my mind Merzbow is my deconstruction of rock music, a mixing of the only
extreme part. I felt there were no records which solely consisted of the
guitar-destroying part of The Who or Jimi Hendrix, the ending noise coda of
"21st Century Schizoid Man", the feedback guitar music of The Stooges, the
violent knife performance of Keith Emerson." so, there you go. my initial
point remains, though, which is that Patton was attempting to perform in the
style of Merzbow and/or Masonna and needs to be judged on those terms.

<<an entirely different subject, but i think that an appreciation of
jazz lineage (for example: charlie parker > ornette coleman > john
coltrane > albert ayler) helps to explicate the logic of ayler and the
post-ayler saxophonists.  ayler didn't create in a vacuum and he was
very influenced by the jazz which preceded him.  just because ayler
dispensed with many of the conventions doesn't mean that the
conventions didn't inspire him.>>

agreed. what I said was "Albert Ayler and Charles Gayle can be traced back in
some ways to Charlie Parker and Lester Young, I suppose, but appreciating one
of the latter doesn't necessarily help you understand what Ayler or Gayle is
trying to do."

my main point here is that there's at least one level of derivation between
rock music and the wack noise piece that Patton performed at Victo, as there
is between Charlie Parker and Albert Ayler. having heard the earlier musician
doesn't necessarily give you a clear idea of what the latter is trying to do,
without knowing about the intervening layers.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:24:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: leng t'che etc.

- ---Christian Heslop <[e-mail]> wrote:
>All I did
> was see an absolutely horrible film called "Total Eclipse" that
covered the
> affair of  "Paul or Tom" Verlaine and "Somebody I guess I don't
remember".

Not trying to drag this out interminably, but for the record, Tom
Verlaine is the lead singer/guitarist in Television, who pinched the
name from the French poet, just if anybody cares.




==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:30:36 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn Packaging

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:18:01 -0500  Troy Whitfield wrote:
>
> Why not print representative sections of the score on the cover then?
> That should be less ambiguous (but probably less interesting) than Man
> Ray photographs etc..
>
> I'm not being completely serious, of course.  Honesty just seems like a
> less credible rationale for ones choice of cover art than say, taste.

Sorry for the confusion, but my answer was a joke.

    Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:55:41 -0500 (EST)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dogon A.D. [was: sound quality (was something about Leng Tche)]

> You wouldn't believe what Revenant had to go through to get "Nefertiti," and to make
> it as great as it is.  And then D.A. had the nerve to release half the material
> domestically as "Trance" this year anyway.
>
> Tim Berne and I have been unsuccessfully attempting to get "Dogon A.D." from D.A.
> for a few years now.
>
I'm just wondering what reasons they could possibly give for not letting
this out.... So they can put out a crappy version w/ a different cover,
misspelled names, no liner notes, sell 1000 copies (or how many do they
sell?), and then cut them out?  That's the best I can cpme up with.  How
much money could they be making from these?

I have "Silent Tongues" and I agree, it sounds fine.  That's being cut out
now too isn't it? If so don't miss it.

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:59:26 -0500
From: Troy Whitfield <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn Packaging

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Sorry for the confusion, but my answer was a joke.

Good.  The bit about the cat food threw me.

Troy

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:20:39 +0000
From: nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #534

[e-mail] wrote:

> I
> don't think that there's any sort of direct link between acts like Merzbow and
> Masonna and the rock tradition. Albert Ayler and Charles Gayle can be traced
> back in some ways to Charlie Parker and Lester Young, I suppose, but
> appreciating one of the latter doesn't necessarily help you understand what
> Ayler or Gayle is trying to do.

It might not help you understand, but then maybe you don't understand.  Those guys are
rooted so much in the tradition of Parker and Young, they're inseparable from it.
Seriously.

There's a couple things to bear in mind here.  First, what you hear Charles Gayle doing
on record is not all he does when he performs in person.  He just did a gig where he
played the Moonlight Sonata.  He used to play only the violin and the trumpet.  What
appears at the surface with that guy is only a trace representation of what goes on
underneath.  But anyway, look at where music was before Bird.  Look at improvisation in
particular.  The flow of group communication, the interaction between players.  Just
because Gayle doesn't play bebop doesn't mean he hasn't inherited heaps from the
tradition.

As for Merzbow, not that I particularly like that stuff, it descends directly from
rock, no doubt about it.  Listen to some stuff that Hendrix did with feedback.  Machine
Gun, or whatever.  At that point in time, electric music was just beginning to approach
noise, absorb the square wave with all its majesty.  Obviously, noise for noise's sake
is sort of a novelty, but noise in the rock context is ancient.

And lumping Ayler or Gayle with Merzbow seems pretty out of place, if you ask me.  The
main thing they have in common is that they are inaccessible music which most people
would prefer to not hear.  The jazz guys are trying to use a broader palette and
different kind of brushes to get their point across.  You can communicate more things
with split notes and overtones than without, from a certain point of view.  But then
you can also communicate with the Moonlight Sonata.  Merzbow never leaves the realm of
square waves.  The purity of that approach has some merit, but it's also really
limited.

- -Nils


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:36:19 +0100
From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Absinthe

>Can someone tell me about "Absinthe"?  I read a brief  review of it
>describing it as "dark".  As a matter of fact, I know very little about the
>Naked City/Torture Garden side of Zorn's work (I have the Elektra cd only)
>and would appreciate a tutorial.


Absinthe. Wow. Now there's a strange album. The first piece of ambient music
I've ever heard. Compares to nothing in the Elektra CD. Dark? Yes, it's
dark, gloomy, scary, has much to do with french "damned" poetry - Rimbaud,
Genet, Baudelaire, Verlaine - these last two appearing to have a more active
influence (the track "Fleurs du Mal" and the two "Verlaine" tracks near the
end). This is not, however, similar to the "Elegy" album in which Zorn also
pays homage to a french "damned" poet, Jean Genet. The playing in the CD is
very slow, sometimes agonizing, and, mostly, you are never really sure who
is playing what. Yamantaka Eye doesn't appear on this one.
I think it's a really great album, although I seldom hear it, but I'm happy
to have it and it was money well spent.

Felix
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:35:59 +0100
From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  leng t'che etc.

>Can someone tell me about "Absinthe"?  I read a brief  review of it
>describing it as "dark".  As a matter of fact, I know very little about the
>Naked City/Torture Garden side of Zorn's work (I have the Elektra cd only)
>and would appreciate a tutorial.


Absinthe. Wow. Now there's a strange album. The first piece of ambient music
I've ever heard. Compares to nothing in the Elektra CD. Dark? Yes, it's
dark, gloomy, scary, has much to do with french "damned" poetry - Rimbaud,
Genet, Baudelaire, Verlaine - these last two appearing to have a more active
influence (the track "Fleurs du Mal" and the two "Verlaine" tracks near the
end). This is not, however, similar to the "Elegy" album in which Zorn also
pays homage to a french "damned" poet, Jean Genet. The playing in the CD is
very slow, sometimes agonizing, and, mostly, you are never really sure who
is playing what. Yamantaka Eye doesn't appear on this one.
I think it's a really great album, although I seldom hear it, but I'm happy
to have it and it was money well spent.

Felix
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:29:07 -0500 (EST)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: truth in packaging

> > Memorial disc. Also, does anyone have any quotes or references from
> > Zorn on his use of violent imagery? I "like" it, appreciate the
> > "edge," but wonder what his reasoning is on this.
>
> It is one of the signs that prove John's honesty. John has been pissed for
> years at how misleading ads and packagings are. [...] Less confusion and
> a higher consummer satisfaction, this is all what John was looking for.
> As you see, it is as simple as that.
>
>     Patrice (always happy to help).

I realize there's some sarcasm here, but it is a good point, although I
don't
know about the bondage cover for _Radio_.  The inside cover listing all
the inpirations is great and very fitting, but not what you'd expect if
you just see the cover.  As for Naked City, Grand Guignol is personally my
least favorite (considering I have Torture Garden separately, and haven't
heard Absinthe), if that helps.

Radio is like the first half of the first naked city album (for anyone who
is interested), but to me has a better sound - not so thin and bright.
Some people don't like this one but I think its good and fun to lsiten
too.  Just an opinion.

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:48:32 PST
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: lamp shea

Hello.  Who knows David Shea's music?  What do you like?  Would you mind
describing it a little.  I have HSI YU CHI (Tzadik, 1995), and I'm
eyeing the TOWER OF MIRRORS.  Is MORTS AUX VACHES (sp?) still available?

BTW, thanks much to those who responded to my Piazzolla query.  TANGO
ZERO HOUR is the super bomb.

- --s

NP: Dave Douglas CHARMS OF THE NIGHT SKY (gorgeous, gorgeous record)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 15:25:02 -0000
From: Doug Tapia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn Packaging

>On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:18:01 -0500  Troy Whitfield wrote:
>>
>> Why not print representative sections of the score on the cover then?
>> That should be less ambiguous (but probably less interesting) than Man
>> Ray photographs etc..
>>
>> I'm not being completely serious, of course.  Honesty just seems like a
>> less credible rationale for ones choice of cover art than say, taste.
>

>Sorry for the confusion, but my answer was a joke.
>
>    Patrice.
>
Wow!  You avant type folks can say the most off the wall things:
sometimes it's hard to tell when you're joking  .-}  <---- (I use the
little anoying cyberculture-thingie to let people know when I'm only semi
serious. . . At times I wish I could use one when I'm talking face to
face with people.)


Oh well, back to work. . .


- -Doug


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:04:40 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: patton's circle status

<< To me it seems that Patton is really trying (too) hard to be part of the
 whole circle around Zorn. He needs to grow a bit in his new role. >>

i agree with everything you said in your post except for this comment. patton
IS a part of the circle. he has been part of many zorn shows (including a
large number of trio shows with him, zorn & mori). it seems zorn likes what
patton does. someone also mentioned that patton filled in for eye on some of
the naked city tour. so patton has been a growing member of the circle for a
while. as far as his composition skills we have to take into consideration
that patton is also fairly new (compared to many of the other members of this
crazy pool) in what he is trying.

peace
jt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:43:14 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: lamp shea

At 12:48 PM 11/24/98 PST, Scott Handley wrote:

>Hello.  Who knows David Shea's music?  What do you like?  Would you mind
>describing it a little.  I have HSI YU CHI (Tzadik, 1995), and I'm
>eyeing the TOWER OF MIRRORS.  Is MORTS AUX VACHES (sp?) still available?

I have four Shea albums.  Shock Corridor (Avant) is short (35 minutes or
so) and extremely chaotic, not much continuity.  One of the three pieces is
samples of Tom and Jerry cartoons plus piano, to give you an idea.  I like
this one the least of the four.  Prisoner (Sub Rosa) is better, including
more live musicians, more of an edge, definitely worth tracking down.
Tower of Mirrors (Sub Rosa) is very nice, more sustained, but still clearly
sample based (also including more live musicians).  And Satyricon (also Sub
Rosa) is my favorite of the bunch, almost all live, including some pretty
good piano work, with lots of variety (including some bits that wouldn't be
out of place in someone like Biosphere).  I haven't heard Hsi Yu Chi (be
interested in a brief description if you could), but it would be the next
piece of his I would target.

- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:31:33 -0300
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn Packaging/severedlimbs/tonguedskulls/etcetera

> >Sorry for the confusion, but my answer was a joke.
> >
> >       Patrice.

That's okay, I understand...

Now what do you really think, or know, about the element of
mega-violence in (on?) Zorn's discs?

C'mon all you jokesters. I'm truly curious, interested, and looking
for some skinny on this.
- -RL
- --
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD
BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:49:57 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dogon a.d.

Brent Burton wrote:

> i've got a copy of [Dogon A.D.] on the mbari label.  i assumed that
> hemphill put
> it out himself, so how did they get the master tapes?

Hemphill did put it out himself, initially.  But it was licensed by Freedom
for wider release and it seems that D.A. still owns the rights.  Whether they
know where that (or any other) mastertape is located is anyone's guess.

This wasn't the only case of Freedom licensing material.  The first Human
Arts Ensemble album was originally self-released as well.  And surely there
are others.  All of those rights seem to reside with D.A. now.

Steve


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:54:36 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: Jobim - No Zorn content

Anybody know the changes -- or have them in a fake book -- to A.T.
Jobim's "Aguas de Marco (Waters of March)"? You would be my hero
forever. e-mail or fax [phone] [e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:55:03 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dogon a.d.

Ken Waxman wrote:

> Considering the length of it and "Coon Bid'Ness" (the original non-PC
> name for the "Reflections" sesion), why doesn't someone (Steve?) combine
> them both on a single CD with new notes etc.

That's a fine idea.  But given that "Coon Bid'Ness" was already released
(albeit poorly, with even Hamiet Bluiett's name mis-spelled), Tim was mainly
just interested in getting "Dogon."  Besides, that particular album has
particular resonance for him: it's the single album that inspired him to pursue
his career.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:24:59 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  RE: DiCaprio, sorry

are we saying chet couldn't play? he may not be in the great zorn lineage, but
the man could play to his broken hearted souls content.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:38:47 -0800
From: cd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: noise?

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > Also, MICROPHONY
>
> > experiments (like amp feedback), there wouldn't be any context for
> > anything like merzbow or whitehouse.  those guys learned noise from
> > the cacophony of free improvisation and they too traffic in free
>
> Not sure about that. Jazz is there definitely for the improvisation element
> (that kind of disappeared from classical music), but I would expect more
> from the following:
>
> Varese's interpolations from DESERTS (1954)
> Stockhausen's MICROPHONIES (1966?)
>
>         Patrice.
>
> -

Yes.  Cage's CARTRIDGE MUSIC (1960) comes to (my) mind.  I think that a
distinction can be made where the "noise" comes in the context, e.g., of
Hendrix building to a climax in a live performance (not to mention the
influence of other aspects of the experience (no pun intended) such as
100,000 screaming fans or hallucinogens).  I can't think of any
instances where hendrix held his guitar up to the amp, recorded feedback
for several minutes, then stopped (and called it a finished work).  I
would argue the same for (most) Coltrane.
On the other hand, the noise in Cage, Stockhausen, and Varese was used
as a primary timbral element of entire compositions.

Merzbow very well may have been influenced by Hendrix, but the extreme
contextual differences between these almost polar uses of noise would
have me put Merzbow in the avant-garde/experimental school (not that I
like to classify..) - not as an evolution of rock or jazz.  Maybe I'm
wrong, but I see Merzbow starting a project and saying "the noise will
start, then it will modulate, then I'll change it like this, and maybe
some unexpected but very interesting changes will happen here ... then
the work will end."  I see this as very different from an improvisation
that climaxes in a state of noise (whether jazz or rock or even Leng
T'che).

2c

- -cd

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #535
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