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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #526
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, November 13 1998 Volume 02 : Number 526
In this issue:
-
George Lewis; was Re: Minafra, Actis Dato, etc.
Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Re: Gunter - Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Re: Gunter - Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Piazzolla
Re: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
Re: Gunter
RE: Melting obstacles
Re: Gunter
Ashley; was Re[2]: Gunter
Re: Gunter
Re: No Original Members
Re: Gunter
[ba-improv] Agreed.-- LONG (fwd)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 12:31:30 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: George Lewis; was Re: Minafra, Actis Dato, etc.
Dan wrote:
>Other great Italian music: Giancarlo Schiaffini has two really good
>quintet discs on Pentaflowers. One a tribute to Monk, one to Bird. They
>sure ain't bebop though. They come from the same spiritual direction, as
>far as tributes go, as does George Lewis's Homage to Charles Parker.
>(Which, just in case anyone on the list doesn't own it, should be owned
>by all.)
Yes, and yes again!! Confirmed cargo on my trip to that desert island.
If the Schiaffini is half as good as HTCP, it's well worth hearing. I
keep waiting, probably in vain, for Lewis to re-explore that
territory; when he wants to be, he's the most lyrical, soulful
trombonist I've ever heard. I only know of one other piece of his
that's very much in this vein: a trombone quartet called, as I recall,
'Atlantic' (Peter Zummo was one performer at the concert I saw in the
early 80's; I forget the others) which featured contact mikes inside
the mutes and generated a wonderful, sub-aquaeous sound. Don't think
it's ever been recorded.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:52:52 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:12:11 -0800 "Benito Vergara" wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Patrice L. Roussel [mailto:proussel@ichips.intel.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 10:20 AM
>
> > Is a Spice Girls fame what you consider not being "underrated"?
>
> Well, no... but I'm all for artists getting more money. =) Seriously,
> though, I think Waits is still relatively obscure (but certainly not for us
> Zorn-listees, for which "obscure" means... well, I can't think of anything).
> Unappreciated by the mainstream public, maybe?
Much less obscure than you believe, I think. I am always surprised at the
number of people who know him.
Based on the lack of direct appeal in his music, I think he has a fairly
high fame/accessibility ratio (TM).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:00:13 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:12:11 -0800 "Benito Vergara" wrote:
>
> There's certainly an element of -- wonder? puzzlement? what am I doing
> listening to this? -- to the album. What it's done is certainly to heighten
> my listening sensitivity; I'm beginning to detect patterns in the humming of
> my computer's disk drive, or with the refrigerator (that's the part that's
> driving me crazy). For those not familiar with Gunter's album (The Wire had
> picked it recently as one of those "100 records that set the world on fire
> while no one was listening"), it's all barely audible pops and buzzes. In
> any case the effect is somewhat disorienting -- even more "ambient" than
> "Thursday Afternoon?" -- and like Justin Bennett's "Cityscapes," the album
> encourages the listener to generally "listen" differently.
I saw him in concert and was kind of puzzled also. He apologized for just
playing his records... And that was the whole show: us sitting in front of
two speakers and him between them playing his records. For somebody like me
who believes in the "sweat" factor attached to performance, that was kind
of a let-down :-).
The thing I am sure about him is that what he does is different. The thing
I am not sure yet (but I tend to be slow), is if it is worth it. We are back
to question one for audience of non-mainstream music: is the fact that
something has never been done enough to make it worth hearing it?
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:07:26 -0800
From: David Egan <degan@excell.com>
Subject: Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:12:11 -0800 "Benito Vergara" wrote:
> >
> > There's certainly an element of -- wonder? puzzlement? what am I doing
> > listening to this? -- to the album. What it's done is certainly to heighten
> > my listening sensitivity; I'm beginning to detect patterns in the humming of
> > my computer's disk drive, or with the refrigerator (that's the part that's
> > driving me crazy). For those not familiar with Gunter's album (The Wire had
> > picked it recently as one of those "100 records that set the world on fire
> > while no one was listening"), it's all barely audible pops and buzzes. In
> > any case the effect is somewhat disorienting -- even more "ambient" than
> > "Thursday Afternoon?" -- and like Justin Bennett's "Cityscapes," the album
> > encourages the listener to generally "listen" differently.
>
> I saw him in concert and was kind of puzzled also. He apologized for just
> playing his records... And that was the whole show: us sitting in front of
> two speakers and him between them playing his records. For somebody like me
> who believes in the "sweat" factor attached to performance, that was kind
> of a let-down :-).
>
> The thing I am sure about him is that what he does is different. The thing
> I am not sure yet (but I tend to be slow), is if it is worth it. We are back
> to question one for audience of non-mainstream music: is the fact that
> something has never been done enough to make it worth hearing it?
>
> Patrice.
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:11:40 -0800
From: David Egan <degan@excell.com>
Subject: Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> The thing I am sure about him is that what he does is different. The thing
> I am not sure yet (but I tend to be slow), is if it is worth it. We are back
> to question one for audience of non-mainstream music: is the fact that
> something has never been done enough to make it worth hearing it?
Did you hear Tom Waits' track on "Stay Awake"? That's definitely worth
hearing. I think I can confidently say that The Dwarves Marching Song
has never been deconstructed to better effect.
- - Dave
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:21:43 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:11:40 -0800 David Egan wrote:
>
> "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> > The thing I am sure about him is that what he does is different. The thing
> > I am not sure yet (but I tend to be slow), is if it is worth it. We are back
> > to question one for audience of non-mainstream music: is the fact that
> > something has never been done enough to make it worth hearing it?
>
> Did you hear Tom Waits' track on "Stay Awake"? That's definitely worth
> hearing. I think I can confidently say that The Dwarves Marching Song
> has never been deconstructed to better effect.
I was talking about Gunter, not Tom Waits. Tom has been around for a long time
and it is easy to measure his impact and success. With Gunter, it is harder
because he is (kind of) new on the music map, and it might take many years
to evaluate the relevance of what he is doing. I am puzzled for the moment
(but have been puzzled already by most of my favorite artists...).
Anyway, I am curious to see where Gunter's music will go.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:31:02 -0600
From: Craig Rath <fripp@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Gunter - Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
At 10:21 AM 11/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Anyway, I am curious to see where Gunter's music will go.
>
Just curious if anyone knows what all Gunter has available. I know of one
on Table of the Elements (name escapes me at the moment), a track on the
Merzbow tribute, and a track on a recent Dorobo compilation. The Dorobo
one is probably the most interesting of them. Anything else I'm missing?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:44:05 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Gunter - Re: [still no Zorn content] RE: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:31:02 -0600 Craig Rath wrote:
>
> At 10:21 AM 11/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >Anyway, I am curious to see where Gunter's music will go.
> >
>
> Just curious if anyone knows what all Gunter has available. I know of one
> on Table of the Elements (name escapes me at the moment), a track on the
It is the reissue of UN PEU DE NEIGE SALIE.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 16:48:42 -0300
From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar
Subject: Piazzolla
Hi Zornheads!
From Terry Gilliam's film "Twelve Monkeys" I listened to for the first
time Piazzolla's Suite de Punta del Este".
Is there anybody out there who knows if Piazzolla's "Suite..." is
available on any official CD? If not, what cd?
Thanks in advance,
Hugo.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:50:45 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <xian@mbay.net>
Subject: Re: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
That "Jewish Music" thing was simply an attached thread that we may have
forgotten to clip.I don't remember anyone saying anything about Wait's and
Jewishness.
I have a JZ question. A long time ago I heard a friend's copy of "The
Grand Guignol" and was instantly converted. When I started buying JZ albums
I never bought that one because I had already heard it. Later when I
decided that it was something I wanted to get, I had a lot of trouble
finding it locally. Eventually I bought a computer and all these obstacles
melted away. However when I was at the CDNow site shopping for it, "The
Grand Guignol" was listed as only having the title track, the Scriabin,
Ives, Messiaen etc. The typically Naked City tracks-starting from Blood is
Thin- were listed on a separate album entitled "Black Box". So I bought
neither. Later when I returned it was all listed under Grand Guignol. Is
this just a CDNow mistake?
> From: Peter Hollo <raven@fourplay.com.au>
> To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: Great Jewish Music: Tom Waits
> Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 5:24 AM
>
> Erm, well, re: the subject... and all this talk... Tom Waits isn't
> actually Jewish is he? I mean, if he is, hey cool! but I wouldn't have
> expected it.
>
> Peter.
> --
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:00:10 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gunter
In a message dated 11/12/98 1:46:24 PM, proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
<<> Just curious if anyone knows what all Gunter has available. I know of one
> on Table of the Elements (name escapes me at the moment), a track on the
It is the reissue of UN PEU DE NEIGE SALIE.
>>
Gunter's other full length is Details Agrandis on Selektion, which Table Of
The Elements also had plans to reissue at some point.
for my money, Gunter's music is less rewarding than many other musicians in
the same territory. for instance, Ralf Wehosky, Thomas Koner, some of
Francisco Lopez' work. have you guys heard Robert Ashley's _Automatic
Writing_? that's my favorite single record along these lines. I've probably
played it 50 or 60 times since I first heard it a year or so ago. and RLW's 5
CD set _Tulpas_ is remarkable.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:00:42 -0600
From: "Marks, Andy" <Andy.Marks@mts.com>
Subject: RE: Melting obstacles
> I have a JZ question. A long time ago I heard a friend's
copy of "The
>Grand Guignol" and was instantly converted. When I started buying
JZ albums
> I never bought that one because I had already heard it. Later when
I
> decided that it was something I wanted to get, I had a lot of
trouble
> finding it locally. Eventually I bought a computer and all these
obstacles
> melted away.
I have also experienced a similar "melting away" of obstacles since
I became
more Internet aware. Used to be I just had to go down to the local
record shop
and see if anything new had come in that I would be interested in
(which by the way
was SchoolKids Records in Ann Arbor, which is now no more). Now I am
able to
obtain items which I would previously never had a chance of
obtaining unless a shop
near me thought someone might actually buy it. Now, I know well
ahead of time when
a certain release is due and can get it when it comes out, instead
of having to wait for
someone else to find out about it and order it. I've been able to
expose my to a huge amount
of great music by ordering over the Internet than I would have
otherwise.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:17:06 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Gunter
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:00:10 EST JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
>
> for my money, Gunter's music is less rewarding than many other musicians in
> the same territory. for instance, Ralf Wehosky, Thomas Koner, some of
> Francisco Lopez' work. have you guys heard Robert Ashley's _Automatic
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You bet!!! One of my favorite American composers (although if I had to choose
my top piece by him, that would be THE BAR (in the LP version...)).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:37:14 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Ashley; was Re[2]: Gunter
Patrice, re: Robert Ashley:
>You bet!!! One of my favorite American composers (although if I had to choose
>my top piece by him, that would be THE BAR (in the LP version...)).
I might also recommend a Lovely Music LP with one of my favorite album
titles, "Music Word Fire and I Would Do It Again (Coo-Coo)", which, as
many of his things do, features a number of musicians from the LOLO
axis. (Where IS Jill Kroesen nowadays?)
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:19:41 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: Gunter
At 03:00 PM 11/12/98 EST, JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 11/12/98 1:46:24 PM, proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
>
><<> Just curious if anyone knows what all Gunter has available. I know of
one
>> on Table of the Elements (name escapes me at the moment), a track on the
>
>It is the reissue of UN PEU DE NEIGE SALIE.
>>>
>
>Gunter's other full length is Details Agrandis on Selektion, which Table Of
>The Elements also had plans to reissue at some point.
>
>for my money, Gunter's music is less rewarding than many other musicians in
>the same territory. for instance, Ralf Wehosky, Thomas Koner, some of
>Francisco Lopez' work. have you guys heard Robert Ashley's _Automatic
>Writing_? that's my favorite single record along these lines. I've probably
>played it 50 or 60 times since I first heard it a year or so ago. and RLW's 5
>CD set _Tulpas_ is remarkable.
Gunter also has a collaboration with John Duncan called Home Unspeakable,
based on Neither (Samuel Beckett's last work, also the source for the opera
by Morton Feldman, although obviously very different treatments). He also
has a 29-minute track on one of the Ash International 2-cd sets, which is
followed by a Merzbow track. Boy! Talk about a shock. You crank up the
volume and get lulled into very careful listening, then BAM! in comes
Merzbow with his trademark squalls.
I go back and forth on this stuff. Sometimes I think it's a waste of
money, but I really do listen to things differently. Koner in particular
- -- I've got five Koner albums, and do you think I can tell the difference
between them? I find something fascinating about music so minimal it
hardly deserves to be called music.
Second the recommendation for Tulpas, although I would not put it in the
ultra-quiet category of Gunter. A wide variety of noise work, all
fascinating, all difficult.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:41:26 -0800
From: Todd Bramy <tbramy@oz.net>
Subject: Re: No Original Members
The Accused.
(Thanked on Torture Garden, you may recall.)
Todd Bramy
NP: Albert Ayler: Live In Greenwich Village, the Complete Impulse! Recordings
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:09:17 +0100 (MET)
From: FJG_Lamerikx <flamerik@best.ms.philips.com>
Subject: Re: Gunter
> >for my money, Gunter's music is less rewarding than many other musicians in
> >the same territory. for instance, Ralf Wehosky, Thomas Koner, some of
> >Francisco Lopez' work. have you guys heard Robert Ashley's _Automatic
> >Writing_? that's my favorite single record along these lines. I've probably
> >played it 50 or 60 times since I first heard it a year or so ago. and RLW's 5
> >CD set _Tulpas_ is remarkable.
> Second the recommendation for Tulpas, although I would not put it in the
> ultra-quiet category of Gunter. A wide variety of noise work, all
> fascinating, all difficult.
Guenter and Wehowsky have a 3x3" CD called "Un Ocean de Certitude" on the
V2 label (*not* the Virgin shoot-off, but the Dutch label of experimental
music). It holds a piece by both of the artists alone, and a collaboration
piece.
As far as Wehowsky is concerned, I really like his "14" CD on Table Of The
Elements. Haven't heard anything of P16.D4, though (I always wondered why
P16.D4 are in the credits list of Grand Guignol).
Since we are on the terrain of the Selektion label now, I really recommend
Runzelstirn & Gurgelstock "HO" on that label. Has nothing to do with either
Guenter or Wehowsky, but since it is one of my all-time favorites I thought
I'd mention it.
Frankco.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:59:33 -0800 (PST)
From: leon lee <llee15@ccsf.cc.ca.us>
Subject: [ba-improv] Agreed.-- LONG (fwd)
this forwarded from ba-improv (that's s.f. & bay area)... anyone care to
comment?
here's my two cents: schott's group sounded good -- some interesting
tonal shifts, textures and colors but some pieces didn't sustain my
interest as much as others engaged them tremendously. what about the
break beat rock song? is that not something right up the S.F.
- -mainstream- Jazz Fest alley? It's easy to dismiss something as
not-avant-enough but does this truly reinforce the idea of
radical/experimental/avant-garde? Doesn't it sound ridiculous? "This is
more radical than that" etc etc etc... Masada IS Masada; they play the
Masada Song book. Masada is Zorn, Cohen, Douglas and Baron. Zorn's
approach in klezmer is apparent, thus, 'Radical Jewish Culture' --
contemporary expositions of traditional forms. He's really not saying
more than that. Who cares if he doesn't 'practice' his alto anymore.
Does it hinder you from practicing yourself?
To paraphrase Schoenberg (from somewhere): there is 'the same' on
one end of the spectrum, 'the completely different' on the other.
everywhere between are variations that reference without exacting and
obscure within context. Sound familiar?
Be well
Leon Lee
_______________________________________________________________________________
"life work in-progress"
Students for Creative Music and Experimental Performance, treasurer
Gamble everything for love
if you're a true human being
Jelaluddin Rumi
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:49:04 -0800
From: Jake Rodriguez <JakeR@westside-health.org>
To: "'ba-improv@wnur.org'" <ba-improv@wnur.org>
Subject: [ba-improv] Agreed.
Here here for the local folk! I would have to agree that Schott's group
provided the much better listening experience over Zorn's. It certainly
was the more "radical" of the two. Schott and everyone involved all
sounded in top form. They deserve a good hard slap on the back. Now if
they could only bring that temple with them wherever they played...
Don't get me wrong--Masada is great--the players are great--the music is
moving. But as a flagship project for Zorn's acceptance into the
mainstream jazz world, it seems like there could be more work put into
it. We know Zorn doesn't practice alto anymore (or at least he's said
that he doesn't), so he's not pushing himself in his playing, but, okay,
he's played for so long that he deserves a break, I guess. So then, I
expect him to at least bust his ass composition-wise. But how many
really different Masada songs are there? You can take a handful of
songs from the first few albums, transpose the bass line and the melody
and boom--another few albums, and another few albums...that's a lot of
money we're paying for some guy who flashes through town now always only
playing the big money shows, and bringing with him projects that he
doesn't have to put much effort into. I think Cobra can be really neat,
but you know he doesn't have to do shit to prepare for it. I don't
think he even procures the players, but lets Willie round them up--and
no comment on how cheated I feel when spending $15 on a Zorn/Patton
thing that very, very little forethought has gone into.
Anyhow, Zorn has opened up a lot of folks' eyes over the years
(including mine) and he deserves a lot of credit for that. I just think
he's gotten lazy 'cause people will pay for a Zorn show/disc just 'cause
it has his name on it now. It'd be nice to see him push himself again,
open up some eyes that he's already opened, and maybe play a few smaller
shows when he comes to town every now and then. Otherwise, fuck
it--next time Zorn's in town on a Sunday night, I'll be at Beanbenders.
Jake Rodriguez
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #526
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