ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v02.n497

Internet Message Format | 1998-10-10 | 24KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #497
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest      Saturday, October 10 1998      Volume 02 : Number 497



In this issue:
-
       Re: context (was Re: Jewish)
       context (was Re: Jewish)
       Re: context (was Re: Jewish)
       re: Jewish
       Re: Jewish?
       Re: Cecil Taylor
       Re: Glenn Spearman
       Re: Jewish?
       Marc Ribot Interview
       Re: Jewish?
       Re: context (was Re: Jewish)
       Re: context
       Re:  Re: context (was Re: Jewish)
       context

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:09:51 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: context (was Re: Jewish)

Julian wrote:
>
> > P.S. - does anoyone else think Ornette's "Peace" from 'The Shape Of Jazz
> > To Come" sounds like it could be a Masada tune?
>
> Hmm... really? It doesn't really have that Jewishness that Masada tunes
> have.

Oh, there's a little Jewish tinge in that piece for sure...

                -Tom Pratt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:30:54 -0600
From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: context (was Re: Jewish)

A couple of quick things. Regarding the long list of Jewish musicians, I
really had no idea, and I'm wondering other than the obvious klezmer thing
(which I think we've talked to death), is there a larger issue here. I know
that the Knitting Factory guy is jewish, and so this whole "Downtown" jazz
thing seems to be permeated by this jewishness. So the question is, what are
the larger aesthetic issues that can be asked about the downtown style, and
what it's roots are? I'm not sure I have the answer, so I'll leave it up to
you more thoughtful types.

Speaking of that style and Zorn's context issue in particular what Pratt
doesn't like about Zorn is precisely why I like him so much. As a visual
artist who does more or less what Zorn does, I believe that the whole
"postmodern" question is one of context. I think that collaging elements
together does more to ask questions about "our" culture, than any "unified"
work does, and that these are the questions that need to be asked  at this
point in history.

yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:49:56 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: context (was Re: Jewish)

> Speaking of that style and Zorn's context issue in particular what Pratt
> doesn't like about Zorn is precisely why I like him so much. As a visual
> artist who does more or less what Zorn does, I believe that the whole
> "postmodern" question is one of context. I think that collaging elements
> together does more to ask questions about "our" culture, than any "unified"
> work does, and that these are the questions that need to be asked  at this
> point in history.

Now I'm no expert on post-modernism but what questions are these?

I'm all for bringing elements together but it needs to transcend being
merely an awkward heterogeneous collage of innovations from the past.
I'm all for looking at the music of Ornette Coleman and identifying its
intensity with that of hardcore. Sure, it's an astute observation but I
find nothing innovative about actually merging the two. I think Sun Ra
and George Clinton have a lot in common but I'm not interested in
hearing a funked-out version of "The Magic City". I find a lot in common
between Albert Ayler and Charles Ives but I'm not interested in hearing
Albert and Don leading separate bands at the same time marching towards
each other. I find context composition a cop-out to true innovation and
I find this often to be the case with Zorn.

I'll use another example that relates to this same issue on a different
level. On Peter Brotzmann's 'Wels Concert' disc with Hamid Drake and
Mahmoud Gania, there are many points where I felt the clash of cultures
and styles was truly awkward, forced and out-of-context. But conversely
there were some wonderful moments were they destroyed this awkwardness
and the cultural juxtaposition and really made something *work* that was
quite special. Are you interested in the awkward sections as well as
some sort of post-modernistic question raiser?

                -Tom Pratt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:33:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Jewish

>
>If something is part of one's heritage/cultural background, then the
>person is going to have a more spiritual assoctiation with that thing,
>for example Jewish music. but someone who learns about it from an
>outsider's standpoint, they can study it and know everything about it,
>sure.  But...there's a difference.
>

Ok, fine; but let me present you this example:  Frank London, the leader
of the Klezmatics, is Jewish.  He was at the New England Conservatory of
Music when he first heard any kind of Jewish music, in this case it was
klezmer.  He went through a very academic process of learning it, the same
way he had learned to play Carribean music or Balkan music or whatever.
Thus the not-too-shabby Klezmer Conservatory Band was born.

On the other hand take Matt Darriau, leader of the Paradox Trio and reed
player for the Klezmatics.  He isn't Jewish, but he's been listening to
Jewish music all of his life.  His dad played it around the house when he
was a kid and things just went from there.  And I think anybody who's
heard him play would be hard pressed to argue that he's not a total
monster.

So who's the outsider here?  I certainly might concede to your point that
sitting down and learning the scales and modes and so on could yield
different results from really having that music deep down in your gut, but
I don't think your heritage argument has any kind of particularly firm
hold on the latter option.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:33:17 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jewish?

Corey Marc Fogel wrote:

> I can be really amazed by  and really involved with
> music of other cultures, but its not going to be quite the same as someone
> from Senegal or Brazil. I just dont think it could ever mean as much to me
> that's sort of the bottom line right there.

Interesting points... but from the player's perspective, not the
listeners. Is there something that comes through differently in the
sound that depends on whether the player is from that background?

I've been involved with Jewish music all my life (trained for a
while to become a cantor, etc), but there are some areas that I still
don't do all that well. If you were to blindfold test someone on
recordings of my doing klezmer then Don Byron doing it, I suspect
that the listener would consistently pick out Byron as Jewish.

There's also the problem that "Jewish music" is an area that gets
harder to find the more you try to locate it. I did some research
in college of analysing a cross-section of Jewish music. Not only
did there not turn out to be anything consistently in common,
there weren't even any hardcore dichotomies that were
statistically interesting. It came off just like a random cross
section of any other music.

(PS: When one writes a message like the one to which I'm responding,
rather than a snide and insulting "Think about it", it improves the
flow of conversation on the list.)
- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:47:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cecil Taylor

Qu'a (Cadence Jazz) is not only a fine example of Taylor playing with a
group, but doubly valuable because it's less than a year old. Dominic
Duval is a great bass player in any circumstances and definitely someone
in the lineage of former Taylorites like William Parker and Sirone and
Henry Grimes.

BTW my comments are based on Vol. 1. There's apparently a Vol. 2 about to
come out.

The only thing I wonder about is how the regular patrons of Iridium,
usually a modern-mainstream club, reacted to Mr. T?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:08:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Glenn Spearman

I got an E-mail telling me that Spearman had died of cancer a couple of
days ago. He was only diagnosed in August, so luckily (I guess) he didn't
suffer for long.

I saw Spearman four times: once in San Francisco with the double trio,
once in NYC with Trio Hurricane, once in Victoriaville with Rova 8 and
once here in Toronto in duet with drummer/painter John Heward.

Each time he was a knock-out with strong ideas and a never-say-die
attitude (sic).

Any interested in fine tenor playing should (at the very least) pick up:

The Fields (Black Saint) with the Double Trio --Larry Ochs (of Rova) on
ts and ss, Spearman (ts); Chris Brown (p); Lisle Ellis (b); and Donald
Robinson and William Winant (d)
Let It Go (red Toucan) with a quartet (Lisle Ellis [b], Donald Robinson
[d] and James Routhier [gtr])
Raphe Malik's The Short Form (Eremite), also feature Malik (tmpt); Dennis
warren (b) and Larry Roland (d)
Trio Hurricane (Eremite) with William Perker (b) and Paul Murphy (d) and
Lisle Ellis Elevations (Victo)  -with Routhier, Ellis, Spearman, Ochs,
Robinson, Joe McPhee (ss, ts) and Chris Cauley (as)

Spearman was another of those saxophonists who fought the good fight for
avant garde music when it wasn't fashionable and didn't get 1/10th the
recognition or 1/100th the remuneration he should have.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:10:34 -0700
From: Joe Tait <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jewish?

I have questioned what was being implied by Corey's responce before and personally came
to the conclusion that while art, music etc. often arises out of a specific
cultural/ethnic context I don't think that at it's core it is that exclusive, I tend to
think it's more universal, as in the human experience being echoed in endless different
configurations, therefore accessible to all people. It seems to me, that whatever can
being said by any culture about it's specific experiences has its equivalent in most
others....experiencing love, suffering, enlightenment etc. is what defines us as human,
and seems to me to be what creates the passion to make music and art.

That being said I tend to take the position that someone who isn't Jewish can have an
equal spiritual association with Jewish music as a Jew, as well as reflect upon that by
writing klezmer compositions, or whatever. I mean when I listen to Masada, and Circle
Maker specifically, I truly believe I embrace it in its totality and am immersed in the
music to the point to where I think I can honestly say it is spiritual for me; and my
heritage is a Catholic from Ireland! I don't see too many parellels in terms of style
with Celtic Folk on Circle Maker. <-- can't wait to see the responce discrediting that
statement

thoughts? feedack?
Joe

>
>
> standard response my ass. if youve spent years thinking about it, then you
> obviously know damn well what i'm talking about and i really should not have
> to explain it, but if i dont, then i'm "baseless". If something is part of
> one's heritage/cultural background, then the person is going to have a more
> spiritual assoctiation with that thing, for example Jewish music. but
> someone who learns about it from an outsider's standpoint, they can study it
> and know everything about it, sure. But...there's a difference. like me being
> a drummer and learning about drumming in Senegal and Brazil and Carnival and
> djembes and doumbecs, etc. I didnt grow up with those things, they have
> nothing to do with me other than the fact that I can access it through knowing
> how to play the drums. I can be really amazed by  and really involved with
> music of other cultures, but its not going to be quite the same as someone
> from Senegal or Brazil. I just dont think it could ever mean as much to me
> that's sort of the bottom line right there.
> Being involved with Jewish music, however, is different, its something i've
> known all my life, hearing that music being played for celebratory purposes,
> like my own Bar Mitzvah, and many other people's, weddings, etc etc etc;
> or having to go to temple when i was younger, and having to sing certain
> melodies my entire life. For people who are more religious than myself, the
> content of prayers, etc are extremely important to them and have alot to do
> with their lifestyle, just like in any culture or religion. I'm not
> going to want to hear Hebrew prayers sung to the tune of Church hymns.
>
> i guess you could say there are exceptions. like someone who is a friend of a
> family who's cultural background differs greatly from their own, and they are
> constantly exposed to many elements of that culture.
>
> i'm sure it may sound irrational to some degree. and it probably sounds like
> i'm rambling.  but...that's my opinion and this is the best way i can thikn
> to explain it.
>
> > I have spent several years thinking about it. Your turn.
>
> -




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:29:05 -0700
From: Joe Tait <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marc Ribot Interview

Could whoever originally posted the link to the interview please re-post
it, I accidentily deleted the e-mail before I got a chance to bookmark
the link.

Thanks,
Joe


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:28:37 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jewish?

> I've been involved with Jewish music all my life (trained for a
> while to become a cantor, etc), but there are some areas that I still
> don't do all that well. If you were to blindfold test someone on
> recordings of my doing klezmer then Don Byron doing it, I suspect
> that the listener would consistently pick out Byron as Jewish.

Ah, but this is a very unbalanced example. Don Byron has obviously
practised long and hard to get to the stage he is at (in all styles that
is, not just klezmer).

For a slightly more even example... I've been playing guitar in a band that
plays a bit of klezmer here and there and I'm not Jewish. My experience in
klezmer style had only really come from Masada, Bar Kokhba, and a bit of
Ben Goldberg and David Krakauer. The violinist on the other hand is Jewish.
He has been playing music for about the same time as me, but while I have
been surrounding myself with jazz, rock and experimental music, he has
listened more to Jewish and gypsy music. So, when we solo back to back, you
really can hear a difference.

I am not so very interested in making myself sound like a "real" Jewish
musician, so my solos retain some of the jazz/experimental quality along
with the klezmer, but the violinist sounds very Jewish when he plays (and
interestingly, we are both playing pretty much by ear). I guess this is
slightly different, because Don Byron certainly made an effort to play
klezmer style, whereas I have simply added my whole musical background to
my "klezmer" playing. Nonetheless, I think it's a pretty interesting
example.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:55:06 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: context (was Re: Jewish)

> I'm all for bringing elements together but it needs to transcend being
> merely an awkward heterogeneous collage of innovations from the past.
> I'm all for looking at the music of Ornette Coleman and identifying its
> intensity with that of hardcore. Sure, it's an astute observation but I
> find nothing innovative about actually merging the two. I think Sun Ra
> and George Clinton have a lot in common but I'm not interested in
> hearing a funked-out version of "The Magic City". I find a lot in common
> between Albert Ayler and Charles Ives but I'm not interested in hearing
> Albert and Don leading separate bands at the same time marching towards
> each other. I find context composition a cop-out to true innovation and
> I find this often to be the case with Zorn.

If we're looking at Naked City, it would be unfair to pick out this context
thing and suggest it is his sole mileage for the whole project. Outside of
the Torture Garden stuff, I see only a few tracks that really use the
context thing as a compositional device. The only one that comes to mind at
the moment is "Krazy Kat". But anyway, tracks like "Krazy Kat",
"Speedfreaks" and "The Prestidigitator" have (in my opinion) pretty low
levels of composition going on there. I would say that the main reason I
listen to these tracks is just how well the musicians pull them off.

But Zorn as a composer for Naked City proves himself (again, my opinion)
time and time again, some of the standout tracks for me being "Asylum",
"Triggerfingers", "Saigon Pickup" and "Terkmani Teepee". And his
arrangement skills are great on (for example) "Contempt", "The Sicilian
Clan" and most of the classical stuff.

What I'm trying to say is, there's so much more going on in Naked City than
you seem to give credit for. And apart from what I've mentioned above,
there's always their three slightly more "out-there" discs which basically
defy classification. I know you were talking more about Zorn than just
Naked City, but you mentioned them as an example, and I am more familiar
with them than most of his other stuff, so I just thought I'd give my
bit...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:09:29 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: context

In a message dated 10/10/98 21:10:07, you wrote:

>But anyway, tracks like "Krazy Kat",
>
>"Speedfreaks" and "The Prestidigitator" have (in my opinion) pretty low
>
>levels of composition going on there.

with no disrespect intended, i have to disagree with this. once i got the lead
sheets to some of the "ten second tunes" and followed along, i became aware of
more that was going on than i thought. there are an awful lot of things going
on in those tunes in addition to the fantastic musicianship.

besides, speedfreaks is one of my favorite naked city tunes, so i kinda felt
obligated to "stick up for it." :)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:11:41 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: context (was Re: Jewish)

In a message dated 10/10/98 8:33:39, you wrote:

>
>> > P.S. - does anoyone else think Ornette's "Peace" from 'The Shape Of Jazz
>> > To Come" sounds like it could be a Masada tune?
>>
>> Hmm... really? It doesn't really have that Jewishness that Masada tunes
>> have.
>
>Oh, there's a little Jewish tinge in that piece for sure...

ok. i just whipped out the ornette box and listened to this tune. i didn't
hear anything as "jewish" per se. zorn's ornette roots become even more
apparent, but i did not get a sense of ornette's "jewishness."
$0.02

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 01:14:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: context

Tom Pratt wrote: This whole thing with context is a major
> *problem* I've had with Zorn's music from the beginning. Often times, I
> feel all Zorn's compositional basis is just new context for established
> ideas (ie his influences).

This would be true for a lot of people: Miles Davis and Ornette Coleman
for example, they continually changed the settings they played in but
the things that made them THEM were or are there, for better or worse.

>For instance Masada=Ornette Coleman 4tet + Jewish music

I think this has more to do with instrumentation though, and the fact that
Zorn's playing has been influenced greatly by Ornette's.  If he had a big
tenor sax sound this comparison might be different.  Douglas isn't much at
all like Don Cherry, plus a lot of the melodies (like the ones in the odd
meters which are more like Bacharach or something) are phrased
differently than Ornette writes.  When you listen to the Bar Kokhba
stuff, the Ornette comparisons don't really come to mind.  But in a way
I agree, the individual elements are fairly easy to separate out.
Still, they've done some great stuff - and there are lots bigger Masada
fans than me who would support this opinion.

As for Spy vs. Spy, I think while it is, as you say, "hardcore + Ornette",
there are a lot of connections that make this a logical and pretty natural
combination.  Maybe not so much Ornette, but definately a lot of jazz from
the 60s (most especially _Machine Gun_) strikes me in the same way as some
really noisy rock stuff.  I love Spy vs. Spy just because its so loud and
abrasive, just like Machine Gun is or some of the "no wave" stuff from the
late 70s or the new stuff on Skin Graft is, like the Flying Luttenbachers
or Melt Banana.  Or Last Exit.  Its just  a good rackety noise.

I also agree with what you were saying about "Carny" or some of the Naked
City stuff.  Maybe its appeal is limited, but its still fun to listen to
at times.  But, after its been done, its been done.  I've heard some other
juxtaposing things done similarly that don't have the same edge to them.
He seems to have moved on from this style of writing though recently.

But this isn't really what I was referring to in terms of context.  What
you are saying reminds me of the quote on the J.Z. radio hour, where the
Rahsaan Roland Kirk song finishes and he says,  "So what kind of music was
that??".  I remember thinking the same thing about this song before (can't
remember the title, sorry).  But in terms of coming up with something that
really makes you say, "What is this?", you're right, it doesn't always
happen with Zorn.  But, I think there are plenty of examples - the stuff
on Locus Solus w/ Peter Blegvad and Christian Marclay, a lot of the Big
Gundown, some of the soundtrack stuff.

but these types of moments are
rare.  Maybe he tries too hard.  Do you notice how he's always talking
about "unique sound worlds"?  Its really hard to achieve this, and in some
ways ties into the thread about authenticity in playing Jewish music or
any sort of ethnic music or really any sort of style.  You have to know it
inside and out and just lived with it in order for it sound like you're
not just throwing something in there (this is why so much fusion from
the 70s sucks, and now there are groups like Human Feel or something which
are jazz-freejazz-rock-whatever and it just sounds so much more natural,
just from growing up with the stuff).

So I've gotten off on a tangent and thrown in some shameless cliches, but
I guess what I'm saying is I think
people  and musicians are a product of their environment as much as
anything else and its not something you can really hide, or should try
too.

Hopefully not too vague or TOO long,

WY

p.s. I just got Napalm Death "From Enslavement to Obliteration".  This
rules.  dghdghdghdhgdhghgdghgdhgdghgdghgdghghgdghdhdhd


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #497
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]