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Zorn List Digest      Saturday, October 10 1998      Volume 02 : Number 496



In this issue:
-
       re: Jewish?
       Re: Jewish?
       Re: Ayler
       Re: Shelley Hirsch, Cecil Taylor
       Re: Ayler
       zorn in the phoenix
       re: Jewish
       context (was Re: Jewish)
       Re: Shelley Hirsch, Cecil Taylor
       Re:  context (was Re: Jewish)
       Re: context (was Re: Jewish)
       Re: Glenn Spearman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:35:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Jewish?

On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:

> > > > there's a difference between playing Jewish music (or any music specific to
> > > > one's own heritage) with your heart and playing it with your brain.
> > >
> > > And that difference is...?
> >
> > think about it.
>
> Ah, yes, the standard response to the questioning of a baseless cliche.

standard response my ass. if youve spent years thinking about it, then you
obviously know damn well what i'm talking about and i really should not have
to explain it, but if i dont, then i'm "baseless". If something is part of
one's heritage/cultural background, then the person is going to have a more
spiritual assoctiation with that thing, for example Jewish music. but
someone who learns about it from an outsider's standpoint, they can study it
and know everything about it, sure. But...there's a difference. like me being
a drummer and learning about drumming in Senegal and Brazil and Carnival and
djembes and doumbecs, etc. I didnt grow up with those things, they have
nothing to do with me other than the fact that I can access it through knowing
how to play the drums. I can be really amazed by  and really involved with
music of other cultures, but its not going to be quite the same as someone
from Senegal or Brazil. I just dont think it could ever mean as much to me
that's sort of the bottom line right there.
Being involved with Jewish music, however, is different, its something i've
known all my life, hearing that music being played for celebratory purposes,
like my own Bar Mitzvah, and many other people's, weddings, etc etc etc;
or having to go to temple when i was younger, and having to sing certain
melodies my entire life. For people who are more religious than myself, the
content of prayers, etc are extremely important to them and have alot to do
with their lifestyle, just like in any culture or religion. I'm not
going to want to hear Hebrew prayers sung to the tune of Church hymns.

i guess you could say there are exceptions. like someone who is a friend of a
family who's cultural background differs greatly from their own, and they are
constantly exposed to many elements of that culture.

i'm sure it may sound irrational to some degree. and it probably sounds like
i'm rambling.  but...that's my opinion and this is the best way i can thikn
to explain it.

> I have spent several years thinking about it. Your turn.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:42:20 +0000
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jewish?

Peter Hollo wrote:
>
> Mark Feldman would be,
David Krakauer I'm sure is,
Anthony Coleman is for
> sure; the name *can* indicate Jewishness but needn't - anyone know is
> Marc Ribot? I'm interested in this one, I really don't know. And then


all of the names you mentioned above are definitely jewish. i saw a
german documentary (done back in 1997) a few weeks ago, which featured
all of those guys.

anthony coleman said something in one of the interviews, that i found
highly amusing. it went something like this: "we try to make a very
limited down version of jewish music. (...)  some people will listen to
it, hear its jewish origins, and like it because of that. some will
dislike it because of that. other people will listen to it, wont spot
the origins, and like it anyway. others will dislike it, even though
they don't hear the jewish origin. which is okay..." after that he
pauses for a few seconds, then just bursts out laughing.

marc ribot said that he's aware of his being jewish, and that he takes
from that culture all the things that appeal to him. "just as i take &
use anything of no matter what cultural background that i feel i can
relate to. but i couldn't care to act like a traditional jew, or what a
traditional jew is supposed to act like."

both of the above are rewritten from memory - hope i didn't memorize
anything the opposite from what it was meant to say!

patRice

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 19:11:06 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ayler

DR S WILKIE wrote:
>
> Charles Gillet doubts whether anyone who listens to Ayler hasn't got
> Greenwich Village so doesn't bother recommending it.  I'll have to
> blow this one out: I listen to Ayler quite a lot, but perhaps it's
> more accurate to say I listen to the Ayler/Peacock/Murray trio and
> the quartet (with Don Cherry added).  I have a little other Ayler
> stuff: but - apart from Spirits Rejoice - this might only be because
> there's also some stuff by the trio or quartet on the same disc
> (Bells/Prophecy, and a live 1964+1966 disc).  So I haven't leapt at
> the Greenwich Village stuff, and need some bad-ass recommendation if
> I'm going to do so ...
>
> awaiting the bad-ass reco
>
> Sean Wilkie

I don't have the re-issue yet (I will soon), but I have the original
Impulse vinyl of the Greenwich Village show and it's unbelievable! A
marching band gone riot. It was the Ayler record which, for me, really
invoked some serious connections with Charles Ives. I have no reason to
believe that the extra material would not hold up to the mere 40 min.
originally released. It's truly one of the greatest Ayler recordings
ever made.

                -Tom Pratt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 19:24:25 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shelley Hirsch, Cecil Taylor

William York wrote:
>
> Here's my other question: I'm going to order one or two of the Cecil
> Taylor CDs on FMP (all I can afford right now), and I'm think of
> Looking/Feel Trio and The Tree of Life, but basically I'm looking for
> something on the relatively softer side from this late period.
> Specifically, if anyone has seen his video on Mystic Fire, the last song
> w/ him, Parker, and Oxley (+ another percussionist) is the kind of thing
> I'm looking for (in terms of small groups) and something like "After All"
> from Silent Tongues in terms of solo piano.  Thanks to anyone who can
> point me in the write direction.

I've only heard about half the FMP Taylor's but most are a very raucus
and intense Cecil. The one that sticks out as very different to the rest
is the duo with Derek Bailey, who really brings a whole other side to
Cecil out. Much softer and more "Bailey oriented" in the sense of more
abstract and less physical. I think it's an incredible disc (especially
the "acoustic guitar" half). I've also been very fascinated by the disc
he did for Leo called 'Chinampas' which is all solo poetry/percussion
without any piano.

I can HIGHLY recommend the Feel Trio discs! What an amazing group! Check
out the 'Burning Poles' video.

Also, his earlier Blue Note discs 'Unit Structures' and 'Conquistador'
are essential. I actually prefer 'Conquistador' but I think it was only
re-issued for a limited time and has since gone back out-of-print. If
you find the original vinyl, pick it up.

Does anyone have any comments on his recent quartet disc??? called Q'ua
or something...

                -Tom Pratt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:13:22 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ayler

On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:45:08 GMT0BST, DR S WILKIE wrote:
> Charles Gillet doubts whether anyone who listens to Ayler hasn't got
> Greenwich Village so doesn't bother recommending it.

   I have to say that I don't really know what I meant when I said
that.  I wasn't being serious, but it wasn't a joke, either.  On the
one hand, Ayler evokes a certain fervor in people which causes them
to buy his stuff whenever it becomes available; on the other hand,
Ayler fans might tend to be on the money-free end of the spectrum and
thus not able to drop the $25 at will.  Hmm....

> So I haven't leapt at the Greenwich Village stuff, and need some
> bad-ass recommendation if I'm going to do so ...

   I'm not sure if I can be bad-ass enough, since I caught the Ayler
bug fairly recently.  The thing that jumps out at me, before my brain
has even started perceiving the music, is that I can actually hear all
of the instruments--sound quality needn't be the first criterion for
determining a good album, but it is nice to hear the bass players
playing instead of hearing a vague rumble in the background.  Truth
be told, however, you can hardly hear the violin a fair amount of the
time.

   Jeff Schwartz's Ayler book (http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~jeffs/ayler.html
and other places) says more than I could about the music in Chapter
Four than I can.  There is a lot of heavy ornamentation of composed
material, and many of Ayler's solos are of the high and frantic type.
There's a little bit of everything as far as Ayler's pre-New Grass
style is concerned, I think.  I can't say anything more without
exposing the fact that I bought seven of my eight Ayler CDs within
the past two weeks...whoops!


- -- Charles

Now Playing: Spirits Rejoice, from _Live in Greenwich Village_.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:23:13 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn in the phoenix

there is an article on jewish musicians/composers in the new boston phoenix
for anyone in the boston area. zorn is included in this article.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:47:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Jewish

> > I agree. Anyway, Zorn's so-called Jewish music is
> > as indebted to western and non-European traditions.
>
> only the western and non-European aspects, which more or less makes Masada
> Changes of a Century (correct title?) By Ornette Coleman, when you strip
> away the "so-called" Jewish aspects.

I disagree, b/c the Masada stuff is more composed in many cases -
some of the songs have ostinatos or chord changes (actually Ornette has a
little bit of that on Change of the Century, like the 2 chord
thing on "Ramblin'").  I don't think the combination of Jewish/non-Jewish
is as seamless in Masada as Dave Douglas' Tiny Bell Trio, its easier to
separate out the influences with Masada (for me at least).  But the Masada
thing seems more like a context where certain things stay the same (w/ the
jazz quartet lineup and jewish melodies) and the other stuff changes, in
the same way that Naked City's rock band line-up was a context.  It seems
like he likes to have certain things fixed as a challenge to see what he
can do with the other stuff, if that makes any sense.

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 21:46:03 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: context (was Re: Jewish)

> I disagree, b/c the Masada stuff is more composed in many cases -
> some of the songs have ostinatos or chord changes (actually Ornette has a
> little bit of that on Change of the Century, like the 2 chord
> thing on "Ramblin'").  I don't think the combination of Jewish/non-Jewish
> is as seamless in Masada as Dave Douglas' Tiny Bell Trio, its easier to
> separate out the influences with Masada (for me at least).  But the Masada
> thing seems more like a context where certain things stay the same (w/ the
> jazz quartet lineup and jewish melodies) and the other stuff changes, in
> the same way that Naked City's rock band line-up was a context.  It seems
> like he likes to have certain things fixed as a challenge to see what he
> can do with the other stuff, if that makes any sense.
>
> WY

You make sense, William. This whole thing with context is a major
*problem* I've had with Zorn's music from the beginning. Often times, I
feel all Zorn's compositional basis is just new context for established
ideas (ie his influences).

For instance Masada=Ornette Coleman 4tet + Jewish music or Spy Vs.
Spy=hardcore+Ornette. If you like Masada's *playing* then wonderful,
they have, for you, transcended being merely new context. The music of
Naked City is really mostly context composition. "N.Y. Flat Top Box" is
a perfect example. We've all heard country music and we've all heard
thrash metal... But have we heard them together!! "Carny" as well mostly
consists of quotes from artists ranging from Stockhausen to Fats Waller
put together in the classic Carl Stalling block-structure and not much
else. I find this sort of compositional approach to have only limited
appeal.

A lot of Zorn's free improv work includes this same concept, where Zorn
will throw in some jazz lick in the middle of improvising with Derek
Bailey...

It's the same reason I found nothing groundbreaking about Jim O'Rourke's
'Happy Days' as I saw it as merely a coming-together of Fahey and Conrad
and really nothing else.

I can't wait to hear the responses... (!)

                -Tom Pratt

P.S. - does anoyone else think Ornette's "Peace" from 'The Shape Of Jazz
To Come" sounds like it could be a Masada tune?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 23:18:01 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shelley Hirsch, Cecil Taylor

William York wrote:

> I'm also wondering about where to find albums by Hirsch -maybe somethin=
g
> less conceptual than _States_ or _O Little TOwn of East New York, which
> are entertaining but not things I would listen to frequently.

If you can find "Haiku Lingo" by Hirsch and Weinstein, that's a fine one,=
 but
it took me years to track down.  Shelley's got some good stretches of imp=
rov
and glossolalia on Jim Staley's "Mumbo Jumbo" (which also features Zorn,
Frisell, Horvitz ands others in free improv trio settings) and on two FMP
collaborations, "X-Communication" (a large ensemble with the Koch / Suder=
 /
Schutz trio, Butch Morris, Jason Hwang and perhaps others I'm forgetting)=
 and
an album by the September Band (Hirsch, Hans Reichel, R=FCdiger Carl and =
Paul
Lovens).

"O Little Town of East New York" is one of my favorite records, Tzadik or
otherwise.

> Here's my other question: I'm going to order one or two of the Cecil
> Taylor CDs on FMP (all I can afford right now), and I'm think of
> Looking/Feel Trio and The Tree of Life, but basically I'm looking for
> something on the relatively softer side from this late period.

"Looking" by the Feel Trio is a fine one.  For "softer" late period stuff=
 -
there's no such record from beginning to end but all of his recent record=
s
show a bit of it - either "The Tree of Life," "Double Holy House" or "Loo=
king"
(solo version) would be good, and perhaps by getting the solo "Looking" y=
ou'd
have, in effect, two very different views of the same concept.  "Double H=
oly
House" is the only one I haven't heard and it includes overdubbed voice a=
nd
percussion at certain points.

> P.S. I have Silent Tongues, 3 Phasis, Nefertiti, and For Olim already s=
o
> if there are any other big ones I'm missing let me know.  I'm on a limi=
ted
> budget unfortunately.

As Tom Pratt mentioned, "Unit Structures" is essential, and "Conquistador=
" is
also extraordinary.  "One Too Many Salty Swift and Not Goodbye" is
exhilarating and exhausting, but it's an expensive double set and you do
already have that band covered with "3 Phasis."  "Always a Pleasure" on F=
MP
with Longineau Parsons, Harri Sj=F6str=F6m, Charles Gayle, Tristan Honsin=
ger and
Sirone is one of the more exceptional CT band albums of the later years.

And the new "Qu'a" marks the point at which CT's current band finally arr=
ives
after a year of struggling to find their way.  CT is monstrous but also s=
hows
an increasingly romanticism I find very appealing.  Dominic Duval sounds
better here than anywhere else I've heard him, Jackson Krall is starting =
to
really mesh with CT, and soprano saxophonist Harri Sj=F6str=F6m, a source=
 of
irritation for some of my friends, is actually pretty terrific here in my
opinion... like an angry hornet buzzing in a hurricane.  I think it's a
fabulous record and I'm looking forward to Volume 2.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 04:50:11 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  context (was Re: Jewish)

i have to confess that, while I love Zorn's work acros the board, Tom's points
have occured to me a well. Particularly in the case of Carny and some of Naked
City.

"N.Y. Flat Top Box" is
a perfect example. We've all heard country music and we've all heard
thrash metal... But have we heard them together!! "Carny" as well mostly
consists of quotes from artists ranging from Stockhausen to Fats Waller
put together in the classic Carl Stalling block-structure and not much
else. I find this sort of compositional approach to have only limited
appeal.

There was a British impressionist by the name of Mike Yarwood who, after his
monologues in dozens of different characters would announce "and this is me"
at the end of the show just before the  'big song' finish. I have to admit I
have often wondered if Zorn shouldn't do the same thing...

It's the same reason I found nothing groundbreaking about Jim O'Rourke's
'Happy Days' as I saw it as merely a coming-together of Fahey and Conrad
and really nothing else.

I agree with you here too. I think I've only listened to this once since I
bought it!

Scott Russell


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:16:10 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: context (was Re: Jewish)

> For instance Masada=Ornette Coleman 4tet + Jewish music or Spy Vs.
> Spy=hardcore+Ornette. If you like Masada's *playing* then wonderful,
> they have, for you, transcended being merely new context. The music of
> Naked City is really mostly context composition. "N.Y. Flat Top Box" is
> a perfect example. We've all heard country music and we've all heard
> thrash metal... But have we heard them together!!

I agree, but I do like Naked City's actual playing too... How could you not
with that lineup?

> P.S. - does anoyone else think Ornette's "Peace" from 'The Shape Of Jazz
> To Come" sounds like it could be a Masada tune?

Hmm... really? It doesn't really have that Jewishness that Masada tunes
have.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:24:35 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Glenn Spearman

This is really sad news
A.B.
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Subject: Re: Glenn Spearman
From: WLRN-FM <[e-mail]>
Date: 1998/10/09
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Glenn died at his home on Thursday morning at 6am of stomach cancer. He
was 51.

Unbelievably, I still haven't found an obit anywhere.

Bill Hery wrote:

> I just heard an announcer on  WKCR in NY (best jazz station in the
> world!) mention that Glenn Spearmann had died this week. Does anyone
> know any more about this?
>
> Bill Hery
> Bell Labs, Whippany NJ
> email to: my surname at bell-labs.com





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------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #496
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