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Zorn List Digest     Wednesday, September 30 1998     Volume 02 : Number 485



In this issue:
-
       Re: who cares?
       Re: who cares?
       Re: Messiaen
       electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
       Re: Costello/Bacharach (No Zorn content)
       Re: Costello/Bacharach (No Zorn content)
       Re: Modern comp: electroacoustic (redux redux)
       RE: Cobra Etc..
       RE: Cobra Etc..
       Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
       Re: Cobra Etc..
       PK Dick and E# (late, I know)
       Re: MASADA 10
       Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
       Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:27:37 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who cares?

Charles Jacobus wrote:

> I'm sorry. I thought the point of subscribing to the Zorn list was
> to engage in discussions with like-minded (or sometimes, not so like-minded)
> people about things like John Zorn the man; Zorn's music; the music of others
> who
> work in the same or similar tradition as Zorn; music in general; or other
> related topics of some cultural, intellectual or aesthetic interest.

While I would vehemently argue that Zorn the man is none of our fucking
business, everything else you mention has been at the heart of the Zornlist for
at the very least the three years I've been reading it in one place or another.
And in all of those years there have similarly been silly asides like the
ordering of unwieldy collections of recordings.

> Steve, I'm glad you know maybe one or two subscribers to this list.  I happen
> to know at least one too. That doesn't mean that I send him mail regarding my
> personal quips, habits and mannerisms through a public list. I do it privately

Yes, yes, but we're not talking about a single friend or even a few friends
here.  We're talking about a potential pool of (Mike, jump in and correct me if
I'm wrong) about a thousand people here, maybe more.  I've met a few Zornlisters
in person, you know at least one, and yet together we've not exhausted the
possibility of numbering our real-world contacts with these likeminded folks and
friends on the fingers of merely two hands.

It seems to me that a public mailing list of like-minded people is about the
same as a community of friends that are geographically in proximity.  Perhaps
your definition differs.  My position is that just as it's valid for me to get
recommendations of preferred Zorn, or Laswell, or drum'n'bass, or Messaien
recordings from someone in Oakland, California or in Lawrence, Kansas or in
Sydney, Australia, it's also valid for folks who've become comfortable in
regularly sharing such opinions to also exchange small talk about things like
how we arrange our recordings, our schedules, our lives.

To my mind it's a fractalization (to use a Robert Fripp term of which I've grown
increasingly fond) of what's been referred to as the "global village" for
decades -- i.e., if mass media makes a village of the entire world, a la
McLuhan, then internet mailing lists allow us to "hang out" with those with whom
we may have the most in common, whether we are in the same town or merely on the
same planet.

> I believe that it's a mistake to compare this list to a local watering hole.
> It's not
> even a question of bandwidth. It's a question of time and of consideration
> of         context.

And that, I think, is our real difference of opinion.  To me, the internet and
mailing list technology creates the very real possibility of a "local watering
hole" -- i.e., a real and comfortable community of likeminded individuals --
across the face of the entire planet.  And folks I would trust with record
buying and concert attending suggestions are also folks from whom I don't mind
idle chatter regarding the ordering of piles and piles of CDs.

Of all the lists I've ever been on, the Zornlist is the most egalitarian, the
most diverse, and definitely the most worthwhile.  I don't know if John would
give a damn, but it makes me happy to get home from work and download a pile of
chatter from these folks every night.

The end of my prattle (i.e., I've said my piece),
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 02:45:47 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: who cares?

In a message dated 9/29/98 10:39:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>     I believe that it's a mistake to compare this list to a local
>  watering hole. It's not
>      even a question of bandwidth. It's a question of time and of
>  consideration of context.

According to last weeks Guiness World Records TV show, the fastest clocked
time for someone to hit the "delete" button is .065 seconds.  My average is at
best about 1.2 seconds, and even with my hectic schedule, it doesn't really
bother me.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:50:41 +0200
From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Messiaen

On a Zorn related note, Messiaen's
CATALOGUE D'OISEAUX for solo piano compares favourably to
Zorn's birdcall antics IMHO of course. But then I remember Patrice saying
that they got him into Zorn so...

Stephane
- -----Original Message-----
From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>
To: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Dienstag, 29. September 1998 17:36
Subject: Re: Messiaen


someone could recommend some other Messiaen?
:
:CHRONOCHROMIE, COULEURS DE LA CITE CELESTE, ET EXPECTO RESURECTIONEM
:MORTUORUM are three great pieces for orchestra. They illustrate at perfection
:Messiaen's rhythmic talent and control of orchestral masses (with such a
:level of rhythmic, harmonic, and contrapunctal complexity, the pieces could
:end up a total mess; there are amazingly clear and fascinating). If I remember
:well, you can find all three on one CD with Boulez conducting.
:
:Another favorite is 3 PETITES LITURGIES DE LA PRESENCE DIVINE, which is mainly
:a vocal piece with strings and Ondes Martenot.
:



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:45:21 PDT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions

Occurred to me that I typed the last post hurriedly, making only
demands.  Nothing many of you haven't already heard here, but for those
who HAVEN'T:

1. Evan Parker Elec'coustic Ensemble: TOWARD THE MARGINS  Let me say it
again: I love this record.  A beautiful clutter of phrases and sounds
scuttling beneath waves of live electronic manipulation.  A super must
have for EP fans and others.

2. Evan Parker: LIVE AT INSTANT CHAVIRES  I've talked about this one
too, before.  Evan solo soprano w/ live manipulations plus Noel Akchote
guesting on elec. guitar.  Really otherworldly.

3. Xenakis  LA LEGENDE D'EER  A continuous 46' comp for tape, beginning
w/ a meditation on the extremes of the audible high register and moving
through....dare I say it? DARE I resort to cliches?....soundscapes of
actually very affectingly subtle change.  Includes sliced and diced
r4cordings of nonwestern percussion, etc., takes inspiration from Plato,
etc.

These are a few I've really dug.  I'd love to get switched on on to
other stuff.  I also got the Xenakis EMF and the KRAANERG w/ DJ Spooky,
but I haven't listened to those carefully yet.  Really scary though.
How about Musica Eletronnica Viva?  Or Nono?

If CDs were $5, I would never bother any of you w/ these posts.

- ---sh

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:30:30 -0700
From: Star Leigh Wall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Costello/Bacharach (No Zorn content)

>since the liner notes say "all songs composed by burt bacharach and elvis
>costello" i thought that both of them composed the music..but it sounds so
>much like bacharach that i now believe that costello did the lyrics only

I don't have the album yet (hopefully it's on its way in the mail right
now), but I've read/heard quite a bit about Costello and Bacharach's
collaboration over the past couple years.  The two of them work on the
music together, rather than Elvis simply adding lyrics to Burt's
arrangements.  In an article I read recently, Elvis commented, "It's a
collaboration in the truest sense: Burt leads me towards things and vice
versa. It's not just a case of me coming in with the lyrics and Burt
arranging them - we've written this music together."   In an earlier joint
interview with Bacharach, Elvis also mentioned that although some might
assume that the more aggressive/intense parts come from him (and, by the
same token, that the more 'lush', softer sounds come from Burt), it is
actually often the opposite.

>My main complaint, though, would ne EC's vocals.
>They don't really feel right for the music-

Is this because he sounds too shrill, or what? I'm a huge EC fan, but I
occasionally feel that his vocals seem too strained when he hits the higher
notes (for example, on parts of _The Juliet Letters_).   Just curious if
that was the case on _Painted_.

== Star Leigh Wall



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:33:16 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Costello/Bacharach (No Zorn content)

> >My main complaint, though, would ne EC's vocals.
> >They don't really feel right for the music-
>
> Is this because he sounds too shrill, or what? I'm a huge EC fan, but I
> occasionally feel that his vocals seem too strained when he hits the higher
> notes (for example, on parts of _The Juliet Letters_).   Just curious if
> that was the case on _Painted_.
yepp thats it... although i think there are some songs he sings quite
good..
i think it would have been kinda boring if tom jones or dionne warwick
would have sung the lyrics...

about that Brian Wilson album mentioned: yes , damn it sucks

BJOERN


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:19:50 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Modern comp: electroacoustic (redux redux)

> Or for that matter what are
> any of the electroacoustic/digital/computer recordings on the Wergo
> label like?  I could sure use some opinionated recommendation w/
> "descriptions" of the content and approach.

You should definately take a listen to Morton Subotnick's 'Jacob's
Room', a piece for computer, vocal and cello. Joan La Barbara, the
vocalist, gives an immensely intense performance when she sings the
story of Jacob, a jewish man who lived in Europe during the holocaust
and experienced things we all can imagine (listen to "Never
Again"...). All the people who I confront with this composition say
it's about the most breathtaking piece of music they've ever heard.


Jeroen

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:30:29 -0400
From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Cobra Etc..

I agree with Tom Pratt when he says that the game pieces are more
interesting to see being 'played'.  If Zorn believes it is the process not
the product, why record any of the game pieces?  I've got the Hat Hut Cobras
and the Live KF Cobras, none are as FUN as the live shows.  My wife runs
screaming (like Eye, ironically) at the mere mention of Zorn, but I dragged
her to see Cobra at the old Knit with Zorn playing and she had a blast.

Someone should bring back Cobra as a once a month event.  How about an all
Zornlist Cobra?

Jeff Kent


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:45:08 +0200 (MET DST)
From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Cobra Etc..

> I agree with Tom Pratt when he says that the game pieces are more
> interesting to see being 'played'.  If Zorn believes it is the process not
> the product, why record any of the game pieces?  I've got the Hat Hut Cobras
> and the Live KF Cobras, none are as FUN as the live shows.  My wife runs
> screaming (like Eye, ironically) at the mere mention of Zorn, but I dragged
> her to see Cobra at the old Knit with Zorn playing and she had a blast.
>
> Someone should bring back Cobra as a once a month event.  How about an all
> Zornlist Cobra?

I have a few questions concerning this subject. I just returned from Japan,
and saw that the Parachute Years box set was priced at a mere 90 dollars.
This is substantially less than I'd have to pay here in Holland, but I was
still reluctant to buy given the nature of the material.
I remember Simon Hopkins referring to it in The Wire as a seminal set of
recordings. What are people's opinions about it here?
Also, of all game pieces that Zorn wrote, only Cobra and Xu Feng appear to
be played regularly. Are these by any standard his best accomplished game
pieces? If so, why isn't there a recorded version of Xu Feng available?

Frankco.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:05:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Scott Handley wrote:

> These are a few I've really dug.  I'd love to get switched on on to
> other stuff.  I also got the Xenakis EMF and the KRAANERG w/ DJ Spooky,
> but I haven't listened to those carefully yet.  Really scary though.

stockhausen's "hymnen" with orchestra, which was reissued this year on
stockhausen verlag, is a pretty amazing example of electroacoustic
music, however @ $40 it's prohibitively expensive for all but a few
zealots.  although it is really mindboggling at times to try to figure
out which sounds emanate from the electronic tape and which sounds are
coming from the orchestra.  i would be willing to tape it for anyone who
would make me a copy of confessor's album.

> How about Musica Eletronnica Viva?

when i picked up mev's "sound pool" i was initially pretty disappointed.
it's a very communal free jam - entirely improvised - most audibly
featuring a lot of acoustic instruments.  what i guess i was expecting from
musica electronica viva was more electronica.  i really think richard
teitlebaum's (sp?) recordings with anthony braxton are a lot more
predominately electronic, intricate and interesting.

on a similar note, i recently came across a copy of a don cherry
collaboration with jon appleton, who processes cherry's trumpet solos
through old analog synths.  some really amazing stuff and a definite
precursor to evan parker's recent electroacoustic records (like the one
with lawrence casserly on touch).  the cherry/appleton record is on bob
thiele's red baron label (!) and i would highly recommend it.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:11:14 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cobra Etc..

> Also, of all game pieces that Zorn wrote, only Cobra and Xu Feng appear
to
> be played regularly. Are these by any standard his best accomplished game
> pieces? If so, why isn't there a recorded version of Xu Feng available?

An excerpt of Xu Feng appears on (Y)earbook No. 2 on Rastascan records. Is
there any reason why Zorn hasn't thought done a commercial video release of
some of these game pieces?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:44:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: PK Dick and E# (late, I know)

Steve Smith wrote:

> Honestly, I consider this here little list to be as
> valuable to my shopping decisions as The Wire and other generally agreed-upon
> sourcees.  Perhaps you just haven't been around long enough to notice?

Actually I get about 75% of the recommendations for stuff to get from this
list.  In fact, I can't even keep up with all the recommendations - not
enough time or $$.

Anyway, maybe someone mentioned this already but E# has a song called PKD
on _Arc 3: Cyberpunk..._ which is pretty cool if a little dated by those
80s drum machines.  OTOH, I was not at all impressed by the Tectonics CD
that just came out - I was wondering if someone could enlighten me here or
is this one just a dud.  (By the way, I really don't know anything about
P.K. Dick, just thought I'd chime in).

Knitting Factory did put out one really good CD out of the last batch, in
my opinion, which was the Misako Kano Quartet w/ Thomas Chapin.  Not
completely out or straight ahead, but best because she doesn't sound a
thing like Cecil Taylor and Chapin's playing is strong as was usual.

Just in case anyone was interested...

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:31:11 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MASADA 10

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:25:08 -0400  "Mark Corroto" wrote:
>

BTW, what is the exact name of MASADA 10? I have read various titles:

    YODH
    RUACH
    YOD

Any idea which one is the correct one?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:21:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions

On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Here is what Frederic Rzewski told me about this incarnation of MEV:
>
>   In 1968/69 MEV experimented with audience participation and took on a number
>   of new younger people, many of whom were not musicians.  We wanted to see
>   how far we could extend the idea of free improvisation, surrounding the core
>   group with people who happened to be around.  The group expanded and spawned
>   separate communities.  In the early 70's there were three MEV's: one in
>   Rome, led by Alvin Curran; one in New York, where Richard Teitelbaum & I
>   were based; and one in Paris, which was organized by the Coaquettes.  Birgit
>   and Nona were members of the Living Theatre, with whom we also hung out a
>   lot, and Stefano was one of the younger acolytes.  The record you are
>   talking about was a kind of hippie child who chose MEV as its identity.
>   Nobody ever found out really who was in MEV.  At that time, it was part of a
>   movement, and that part of it that was a part of the movement lived and died
>   with that movement.

from what i understood, "leave the city" was the hippie album.  i don't
have the cd in front of me here @ work, but i thought that richard
teitelbaum and alvin curran were involved with "sound pool" and that it
was more representative of the mev *sound*.  hopefully i'm wrong.  i guess
the problem then would be that the only mev cds in print are the ones
recorded after the international split (both originally issued on
byg/actuel and reissued on spalax).  can anyone recommend other good mev
albums prior to '68/'69?

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:10:28 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions

On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:21:01 -0400 (EDT)  Brent Burton wrote:
>
> from what i understood, "leave the city" was the hippie album.  i don't
> have the cd in front of me here @ work, but i thought that richard
> teitelbaum and alvin curran were involved with "sound pool" and that it
> was more representative of the mev *sound*.  hopefully i'm wrong.  i guess
> the problem then would be that the only mev cds in print are the ones
> recorded after the international split (both originally issued on
> byg/actuel and reissued on spalax).  can anyone recommend other good mev
> albums prior to '68/'69?

The quote from Rzewski was an answer to a question about the origin of:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** - LEAVE THE CITY: Musica Elettronica Viva

    1971 (?) - Byg Record, 529.335 (LP)
    1997 - Spalax (France), CD 14968 (CD)

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought that this incarnation of MEV put out two records on Byg in 1969. I
assumed (wrongly?) that the other was THE SOUND POOL.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #485
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