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Zorn List Digest      Monday, September 28 1998      Volume 02 : Number 482



In this issue:
-
       Re: masada question
       Special Bonus Post!
       Re: Hypocrisy?
       reading and zorn show
       RE: masada question
       Messiaen
       Re: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
       finaly, an idea hit upon
       Re" Modern Composers, was Re: reading and zorn show
       Re: Actual Post Regarding Zorn

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:33:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada question

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Benito Vergara wrote:

> All right, an actual Zorn question (not that I minded the OT posts at all):
>
> Masada is coming to San Francisco in November, and I am told that he uses a
> "West Coast version" of the band -- but what does this mean? Say, Joey Baron
> (no!) won't be there, for instance?


it means Ben Goldberg. Trevor Dunn. Kenny Wolleson, John Schott, Scott
Amendola, etc.. or any combination thereof. However..Tzadik news makes it seem
as though its the normal lineup for once.. on November 8th.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:38:01 -0700
From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Special Bonus Post!

In light of my recent gripes and bitchings, I figured it would be sinful
not to actually contribute something to the list that is informative and
relevant, so here is a review of John Zorn's Xu Feng in San Francisco on
Sept 16th that I typed up for my record store's newspaper.  It was aimed =
at
people less familiar with Zorn than yourselves, so keep that in mind.

                            -Ethan

        Slyboots Reviews John Zorn's Xu Feng and Other Accompanying Treats

    Every other month or so, John Zorn treats the Bay Area to a show or two.
This time around it was a pair of shows at Slim=92s:  one with Mike Patto=
n
and David Lombardo, the other billed only as "Xu Feng."  The most enjoyab=
le
night was the second one, so that=92s what you=92re going to hear about. =
 There
were two other acts before Xu Feng which were an unexpected bonus.  The
first act was Mike Patton=92s Phono Sanjo, which consisted of the adroit
William Winant on percussion, a DJ(whose name I missed) on turntables, an=
d
Mike Patton, voice and sample triggering.  It was a bizarre commingling o=
f
Korean percussion, Portuguese lyrics and hip hop.  Patton sang all the
lyrics in Portuguese and of course contributed other sounds which he coax=
ed
from his mouth.  Winant impressively pounded out rhythms with his
tongue-lolling finesse.  These pieces were intriguing and different, just
the sort of thing to awaken the listener=92s appetite for the music to fo=
llow.
Next came Mike Patton=92s Feedback Etudes.  Before this extravaganza bega=
n,
the people at Slim=92s had to make sure that everyone up front had ear-pl=
ugs
that wanted them.  They said that ear plugs were highly recommended.  Wit=
h
a huge wall of amps looming ominously over me, I gladly wedged the squish=
y
little beige bastards into my ears.  Even with the ear plugs in, I was
still uncomfortable, with the vibrations sending my guts churning.  Patto=
n
was hardly visible at all, barricaded within his little amp fortress.  He
came out briefly to shake some of the microphones which dangled across ea=
ch
amp in pairs.  Overall, I was unimpressed.  It was just a lot of humming
and feedback with shifting frequencies.  It was short enough not to be
boring, but it wasn=92t anything to get excited over.  It was more a nove=
lty
performance than a worthwhile musical endeavor.  As far as novelty
performances go, though, it sure was neat, and it served to clear the
palette before Xu Feng began.
    Finally, John Zorn came out wearing his reddish orange T-shirt and
grotesquely gaudy fluorescent camouflage muscle pants, which for some
reason, he must always wear.  Initially it seemed to me that he wore the
same clothes at every show, even on consecutive nights, but my new theory
is that he has a legion of these garments in his closet, for they are
always clean.  In any case, the performers of Xu Feng were close behind
him, in more casual wear.  While the musicians prepared, Zorn shifted his
little cards around, arranging them in columns and rows.  It would be the=
se
cards that he would use to conduct Xu Feng, or perhaps arbitrate it.
    Xu Feng is a game piece that developed out of Zorn=92s Cobra.  It employ=
s
many of the same rules and cues.  In fact, many of the cards Zorn used to
communicate with the musicians were the very same ones used in Cobra.  Xu
Feng, however, uses sound modifiers such as "Sparse," and pairs of
instruments.  This installment of Xu Feng featured William Winant on
percussion and his counterpart, Dave Lombardo on drums.  Trey Spruance an=
d
John Schott faced off against one another on guitar.  The final pairing w=
as
David Slusser and Chris Brown.  Slusser possessed in his arsenal two
theremins and other assorted scientific instruments, his portion of the
stage seeming like a mad scientist=92s laboratory.  Brown, with his wild =
puff
of white hair, seemed just as mad with his unidentifiable, analog-seeming
keyboard contraption, which had a bizarre range of effects.
    Apparently Xu Feng was an actress in many Kung Fu movies and it is from
this that Zorn took the name.  It is an appropriate name, since strategy =
is
crucial and the game is fast paced, with action and reaction, much like a
Kung Fu battle.  Certainly there was an abundance of action.  To listen t=
o
Xu Feng, or for that matter Cobra, without really seeing it is to do it a=
n
injustice.  While often the music is intense and enjoyable in and of
itself, the truly marvelous experience is to observe how the music is mad=
e.
 To observe the subtle interactions between Zorn and the musicians and
between the musicians themselves is more than a little exciting.  In fact=
,
it=92s easy to get caught up in the "vibe" that is so obviously in existe=
nce
on stage.  Their is an exuberance that exudes from the players of this
music.  As they play their instruments as masters, they grin like childre=
n,
for indeed they are playing a game.  I found myself, actually rooting for
Dave Lombardo at times.  He=92s the former drummer of Slayer and he has o=
nly
recently been "inducted" into the avant-garde after joining Mike Patton=92=
s
Fantomas, so he was the underdog at the show.  He played amazingly, and i=
t
was obvious that he was excited to be involved.  Despite his still being =
a
bit limited, his drumming formed a solid core for the music to develop
around during the night.  As one person put it, he=92s like "Zorn=92s new=
 toy."
 Having such a powerhouse metal drummer certainly gave the group a new
sound to integrate.  Lombardo wasn=92t the only enthusiastic one, though.
The intensity extended to all the performers, with a seeming contest
between Winant and Schott for who could stick their tongue out the furthe=
st
in concentration, and Chris Brown flailing his feet like an overturned
insect while he played his keyboard.  I enjoyed the whole show, especiall=
y
the last piece which took a certain Secret Chiefs 3-like feel, as Trey us=
ed
SC3 guitar chords, and the others of the group followed suit.  The music
that night was certainly unique,  for every Cobra/Xu Feng show is its own
entity.  The next time this game rolls into town, make sure you check it =
out.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:50:24 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?

Corey Marc Fogel wrote:
> That may be due to the fact that most of this list, or the most frequent
> speakers, enjoy comparing methods of organizing CDs or other ridiculous
> nonsense. Eventually you get this feeling of "why bother?"
> While often times relatively worthwhile discussions are started from an
> intelligent post, more often it seems that people ignore anything insightful
> and truly expressive, like what usually comes from Gene Natalia, few and far
> between as it may be.Ever notice how the most intelligent posts are the more
> rare? like from Stephen Drury or David Slusser, or Rich Williams or Brian
> Olewnick. There happen to be more frequent worthwhile posts from say...Steve
> Smith or Jeff Spirer, because they're just (seemingly) nice and seem to be
> trying to provide as much info as possible.

A few points, as this issue seems to have come to a wee bit of a boil.
I've been on this list for about a year and a half and find it a very
comfortable forum to air views to a group that, _roughly_ speaking, I'm
pretty sure shares a number of interests, musical and otherwise. I've
had the good fortune to meet two members of the list (that I know of;
one can never be too sure!) and both have proven to be as personally
enjoyable and open-minded as I would've expected. I operate under the
benign assumption that they're fairly representative of this list and
just as I wouldn't feel compelled to keep a discussion with them to
strictly musical grounds (though that would surely make up a large part)
or even deadly serious ones, I don't feel the compunction here, though I
certainly allow for the moderation from Mr. Rizzi as he sees fit. I've
never had the pleasure of sitting down for an evening with this list's
namesake, but I feel safe in imagining that the conversation would swing
from serious to silly (and, yes, geekish) several times during the
night's course (remember, we're talking about someone who based many of
his early compositions on ideas derived from military board games! You
want geekish?). Plenty of topics arise here that I haven't the slightest
interest in (I really don't care if Buckethead ever plays another note)
but, hey, I have friends interested in race car driving; that's the way
it goes. If anything, I feel sorry that a few very thoughtful posters
were put off enough by vitriol to, apparently, leave (or are you still
lurking, Mssrs Knox and Grella?) and would hate to see that happen
again.

Hope this makes some sense. I have a Cubs/Giants play-off to watch with
the sound off while playing Young's 'Just Stompin'. Bye-ya.

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:04:55 -0700
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: reading and zorn show

Anyone who subscribes to the Zorn list, we can presume, has alreay
discovered Zorn and probably doesn't need to be persuaded of his virtues. I
subscribed to the list so that I might get the chance to discuss things
with like-minded people. I assumed that the ability to appreciate noise
music would filter out close-minded people and establishment snobbery. I
hadn't counted on "scenesterism".I love Zorn's music, but I don't buy
posters and limited edition LP's, I don't follow rumors or go to every
show.I own maybe four Zorn albums.Noise music represents a certain
aesthetic ideal to me, the idea that to really create you have to shed
systems and snobbery, externalities and trends and simply make the sound
that you have to make in order to make it sound the way you want it to. I
think any aesthetic discussion outside of Zorn is off-topic, but so what?We
are like-minded people and we share one very odd characteristic-our
ear.Think of what it was like the first time you played a Zorn album for a
friend. Remember that the next time you feel like you want to insult
someone on this list.

I really remember enjoying a few short stories by PKD published under the
title "I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon". Apart from the story from which the
title came was one called "Rautavaara's Case" that was very interesting.Has
anyone here read anything by  Mark Leyner?

Just in case...I really liked Absinthe.

A friend of mine who saw one of the Zorn shows in SF really didnt enjoy
it.Mike Patton performed along with Zorn and it was my friend's opinion
that Patton, like many "noise" vocalists, seemed to believe that Yamatsuka
Eye (didn't he change his name?) had done everything that needed to be done
with the human voice.It was also his opinion that one should have some sort
of compositional talent before you attempt noise music.Sorry to impart this
third person account, but I really didn't have too much to say about Zorn.

Would anyone on this list care to discuss who among modern composers they
would recommend to an ever inquisitive musical taste?I've been meaning to
listen to some Conlon Nancarrow or something.What would anyone recommend of
Varese's outside of Ionisation, Ameriques, and LeCroix de Sud.Would anyone
like to discuss Messiaen?I know that these things aren't directly Zorn
related, but a strong connection can be made. I would really enjoy an
intelligent musical discussion. I wouldn't mind learning something new.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:04:34 -0700
From: David Egan <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: masada question

Benito Vergara wrote:

> All right, an actual Zorn question (not that I minded the OT posts at
> all):
>
> Masada is coming to San Francisco in November, and I am told that he
> uses a
> "West Coast version" of the band -- but what does this mean? Say, Joey
>
> Baron
> (no!) won't be there, for instance?
>
>

Well, Masada is also coming to Seattle two days earlier, on the 6th.
According to the info at the Earshot web site, it'll be the usual
lineup.  Check it out at http://www.earshot.org/festival98/zorn.htm .  I
hope they have accurate info there!  By the way - if you're anywhere
near Seattle during late October or early November, check out the
Earshot Jazz featival!  Besides Masada, they have Lee Konitz with Eyvind
Kang & Wayne Horvitz on the bill (October 27th), and Rub=E9n Gonz=E1lez &
Ibrahim Ferrer on November 1st.

- - Dave



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:07:06 -0700
From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Messiaen

I'd say Messiaen is very relevant to this list since Zorn has covered a
piece by Messiaen with Naked City on Grand Guignol.  I only have one
Messiaen disc, so I don't feel qualified to recommend anything by him
relative to other pieces by him, but I enjoy my Quatuor pur la Fin du
Temps(Quartet for the End of Time), which contains the piece that Zorn
covered.  Maybe someone could recommend some other Messiaen?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:24:52 -0700
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

I read your entire post without regretting it one tiny bit. I have 64 cd's,
which are made more or less accessible depending on what I am listening to
at the time.I usually listen to a cd until I have the entire thing
memorized note for note, then maybe I buy a new one. When I do, I put it
with the rest of them. I don't have the time to put them in any kind of
order.I frequently lose my favorites. I have bought Frank Zappa's "Hot
Rats" four times because it was the one cd with which I always attempted to
convert people. Of John Zorn's, I have the domestic Naked City
(warner-elektra?), Absinthe, Spillane, and Cobra:Live at the Knitting
Factory. That is the order in which I bought them.I have heard The Grand
Guignol, Black Box, Masada 1 and the Big Gundown. What do you think I
should get next? I went from Zappa to Bartok, Varese, Schoenberg and when
that was exhausted I bought a Fred Frith cd, which brought me to the
Boredoms and finally to John Zorn. I am quite new. There are quite
obviously all kinds of listeners on this post.
- ----------
> From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
>
> MY cd collection numbers just over 900, and I have a 1000 disc cd shelf.
I
> keep them all in alphabetical order, arranged in chronological order
within
> each artist, the most recent album being to the leftmost.  Any singles
get
> put to the right of the albums proper, also within chronological order.
> Any live albums or greatest hits type things get put to the left of the
> albums proper.  As for box sets, if the cd's can be removed from the box
so
> as to be filed with the other cd's,......

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:23:43 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: finaly, an idea hit upon

my new pal ethan wrote:
 While often the music is intense and enjoyable in and of itself, the truly
marvelous experience is to observe how the music is made. To observe the
subtle interactions between Zorn and the musicians and between the musicians
themselves is more than a little exciting.  In fact, it is easy to get caught
up in the "vibe" that is so obviously in existence on stage.  Their is an
exuberance that exudes from the players of this music.  As they play their
instruments as masters, they grin like children, for indeed they are playing a
game.
  certainly (in my opinion) seeing is integral to xu feng. i wouldn't have
considered myself more than curious the first time i saw zorn, but upon seeing
him perform xu feng i found myself (as well as my nonjazz listening companion)
a fan. i would have to call xu feng and cobra something along the lines of
process art, where by the music left after the process, in this case a madcap
game, is only a tiny part of the actuall art. it would seem that to hear it
alone is not to understand it. for people who take one listen to zorn, and
runn screaming "noise, noise," they are not to far off base in many instances.
makes you sad that zorn doesn't tour more

any thoughts?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:22:32 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re" Modern Composers, was Re: reading and zorn show

Christian Heslop wrote:
> Would anyone on this list care to discuss who among modern composers they
> would recommend to an ever inquisitive musical taste?I've been meaning to
> listen to some Conlon Nancarrow or something.What would anyone recommend of
> Varese's outside of Ionisation, Ameriques, and LeCroix de Sud.Would anyone
> like to discuss Messiaen?I know that these things aren't directly Zorn
> related, but a strong connection can be made. I would really enjoy an
> intelligent musical discussion. I wouldn't mind learning something new.

(nice post, xian)

To keep it brief, three modern composers I come back to again and again
and who have, seemingly, very little in common are Xenakis, Rzewski and
Feldman (oh, and of course Partch, but you have to draw that "modern"
line somewhere). Xenakis and Feldman, I suppose, do share a fascination
with different aspects of pure sound, so there's kind of a common point.
Rzewski just shows that great music can still be wrung out of the
Romantic tradition, and he's composed (and performed) some of the most
passionate music I've ever heard.

I must say, I've never gotten totally involved with Nancarrow's work. I
have the player piano series on 1750 Arch (have those been superceded by
better recordings?) and while I can admire the pure physicality of the
more torrential offerings, the _musical_ quality often strikes me as
stilted. If anyone can clue me in as to where I'm going wrong, please
do.

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:16:31 -0400
From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Actual Post Regarding Zorn

Always nice to see a post which mentions music...

Kevin Neales wrote:
>
> I just got back from a weekend in New York.  I was lucky enough to see 3
> sets of Masada at Tonic and Marc Ribot at the Knitting Factory.  Not to
> get anyone's hopes up, but on the last night of Masada there was a
> professional video crew there filming and recording the show.  I have no
> idea where or if this footage will show up.

A recent mailing from Downtown Music Gallery implies that there'll be a
series of live Masada albums coming up.  Any more info on this??

- --
Alan Lankin
[e-mail]
http://home.att.net/~lankina

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #482
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