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1998-09-22
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #471
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, September 23 1998 Volume 02 : Number 471
In this issue:
-
Cadence/Masada (last one)
zorn: publisher (plus: John Wall)
Re: collecting music
Re: John Wall
Re: Masada 10/ Sonny Clark Mem'l/ new Zorn
Re: Collectors vs. appreciates: qu'est-ce le difference?
Re[2]: Masada Box
donatoni concert in boston
Re: collecting music
Re: collecting music
Re: collecting music
recordshops in Tokyo/Osaka
Re: collecting music
Re: Bacharach covers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:36:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <wyork@email.unc.edu>
Subject: Cadence/Masada (last one)
> I also find it odd to suggest that the magazine has an aesthetic orthodoxy
> at work. Having been the recipient of far too many hard-bop discs to
> review in these recent months, I can tell you that I don't subscribe to
> this notion (which isn't to say that I haven't liked some of these discs).
But they do spell jazz with a capital "J", although for a jazz magazine I
guess that's what you'd expect. I realize this sounds stupid, since I
subscribed to this magazine because I listen to a lot of what is
considered jazz. But, I'm sure some of these musicians don't like to be
called "jazz" musicians, even if they do have their CDs sent to Cadence.
So I guess I'm not saying there's an aesthetic orthodoxy at work, for me
personnally to judge some things from the viewpoint of jazz or "creative
improvised music" exclusively is too narrow or limiting.
But as for Masada, and I'm not really a Masada freak, I've just got 2 of
their discs - but how much of it is really jazz? Not the melodies or
harmonies, not the rhythms (most of the time). I think its mostly the
context or instrumentation that makes it seem so , although of course
there is a heavy jazz influence, obviously obviously.
It makes m think of Eugene Chadbourne's country improv stuff - nobody
calls that exotica, but to me it makes perfect sense to do that, and seems
perfectly natural (but I'm from North Carolina). As for all of the recent
Jewish/ Eastern stuff, I can't say whether its exotica or not. I
don't know anything about Jewish culture, whether people grow up
hearing this music or not. Maybe people from New York would think the
same thing about Chadbourne, that its exoitca or artificial (or maybe
the reverse of exotica since country is low class music...). I really
don't know, that's what I mean about trying to determine whether
something is truly authentic.
So even if some of the people playing Jewish or Eastern or music now
didn't grow up with it, well I'm sure plenty of hard bop musicians didn't
hear that stuff until they were maybe 15 or so before listening to jazz.
So what's the difference? I'm sure plenty of people think jazz is exotic
in a certain way.
No one knows what someone's motivation for playing a certain kind of
music is, so for a critic or anyone to try to say what their motivations
are is unfair. What matters is what it SOUNDS like, and to me there is
a lot of jazz, blues, alternative country, Brit Pop or whatever else that
sounds more forced and inauthentic than some of the Eastern jazz being
played. I don't like all the eastern stuff, there sure is a lot of it
coming out, but I don't think its fair to say its automatically artificial
or faux-exotic for people to be playing it. I think Dick Dale's
"Misirlou" for example could be considered in the same way, but now its
just called "Surf Music". Its an established sound that probably was
criticized the same way back then, who knows.
Personally, I think that Zorn has released far too
> much material in recent years, much of it sub-par. But one of the things I
> appreciate about ALL his work is a relentless questioning of the musical
> taken-for-granted. When we start crowning his work with the
> fawning adulation usually reserved for the Marsalis-clones, then we're
> falling into some sort of deep irony.
Yes I agree. I try to be extra critical of Zorn and all these folks since
they put out so much stuff, otherwise I'd end up buying a lot more CDs
than I could afford or listen to. I even sold my copy of Masada 6 on this
site, and have little interest in many of the things he's done, but saying
you don't like something is different than saying something is a cheap
gimmick or is done out of some ulterior motivation is a different thing.
And it wasn't just Walter Horn's review I was referring to, I only brought
it up because I'd seen the same arguments a couple of other times as well.
Anyway, I know there's (at least) 2 Cadence writers on the list so I'll be
more careful in the future!
Hope this makes at least SOME since.
WY
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:38:56 PDT
From: "Scott Handley" <c123018@hotmail.com>
Subject: zorn: publisher (plus: John Wall)
This may be old news, but I ran into David ROsenboom's home page while
shuffling thru the very nice Electronic Music FOundation site
(www.emf.org). In the bibliography of one paper, he cites his own work
as follows:
David Rosenboom, "Propositional Music, On Emergent Properties in
Evolving Musical Languages," (written for a book of composers'
writings to be published by (New York: John Zorn) and also Leonardo, (
in press).
Very interesting, no? I've always been curious why he hasn't written or
at least PUBLISHED more, but the Tzadik output is perhaps reason enough.
I'm still hunting for that one article Patrice cited in his
dico-bibliography.
Also: what label is John Wall's FRACTUUR on, and is there an online
place for me to get hold of it?
thanks
- --s
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:42:06 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <cdeupree@interagp.com>
Subject: Re: collecting music
>>>>> "Matthew" == Matthew Ross Davis <mrd@artswire.org> writes:
>> Am I imagining it, or are some of you more interested in
>> "collecting"rather than actually listening to and enjoying the
>> music?
Matthew> You seem to imply they are mutually exclusive.
Matthew> Having a good music library is equivalent to having a
Matthew> good literature library, IMHO. As the spouse of an
Matthew> archivist, I must say that I have a very hard time
Matthew> getting rid of ANY music I buy, and I'm always wanting
Matthew> more. Not because I'm a "completist" by any stretch, but
Matthew> that I'm genuinely interested in the music, and
Matthew> interested in having it in my library.
The problem I ran into with collecting was that there was *way* too
much interesting music to collect it all, and now I at least try to
get something by a new artist every time I place an order.
Every artist I've ever considered collecting has put out some
redundant material, if not some real stinkers. For every $$ I spend
on a stinker, that's some piece of new and interesting music I won't
get to hear.
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:46:05 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <cdeupree@interagp.com>
Subject: Re: John Wall
>>>>> "Scott" == Scott Handley <c123018@hotmail.com> writes:
Scott> Also: what label is John Wall's FRACTUUR on, and is there
Scott> an online place for me to get hold of it?
It's on Utter Psalm, and I've seen it both at Wayside and Anomalous.
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:38:49 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <gill0042@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Masada 10/ Sonny Clark Mem'l/ new Zorn
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:31:40 -0500, Eric Saidel <saidel@usl.edu> wrote:
> And Charles Gillett wrote:
> > Regarding Mr. Horn and his Masada review: I didn't like it, nor did
> > I like his trashing of Uri Caine's Mahler disc, but then I rooted
> > through my back issues and found that he just doesn't like any downtown
> > NYC stuff.
>
> That's not clear. His review implies that he likes Zorn's more radical
> stuff. He also is very positive about Zorn's abilities as a player. (More
> positive than I would be!)
His review says that he considers Masada to be conservative compared
to his game pieces and such, which doesn't sound like an endorsement
either way--just a statement. I think his comments on Zorn's playing
are nicely positive without being effusive--he says "Zorn plays as well
as I've heard him."
I don't have problems with those statements. I have a perhaps nit-
picky problem with the fact that he calls _Tet_ part of the "Radical
Jewish Culture" line--perhaps it is in a grand sense, but it's not part
of the actual, existing "Radical Jewish Culture" series.
I have a problem with his dismissal of klezmer as a genre (it's
Vaudeville and wedding music, apparently not worth hearing for that).
That he the Jewish music he wants to hear is the "weird, almost
tuneless chanting engaged in by those bobbing males in various
congregations who are entrusted with contacting Yaweh in that (to me)
bizarre manner" seems vaguely insulting, like he thinks a Jewish
service is some kind of freakshow for his entertainment. Not being
Jewish myself, I can't speak for this (is he referring to cantorial
singing?), so perhaps he's dead on and this is just a mere statement
of fact.
I have a problem with his description of Masada's music as nice,
tame exotica, because it doesn't seem meaningful to me, just insulting.
He goes on about how the tunes are well written and much of the playing
is superb, but then says that it can't be good music because it's
related to an ethnic/political cause. He also essentially says Zorn is
doing it for the money, and compares Masada to Herb Alpert's Tijuana
Brass. What is he saying? That Zorn's attempt to extend what is
considered klezmer according to his vision is the same as using a faux
ethnic sound to catch the ear of listless pop consumers? Is he saying
that traditions can't be extended? Are Bartok's folk-derived works
"tame exotica for crossover listeners?" He could say that Zorn has
failed in his attempt to create and extend a tradition. However, he
seems proud of the ignorance that would prevent him from making such a
determination.
In terms of downtowners vs. Walter Horn, it seems he always has a
few good things to say, but also always adds a few cuts about how
they're all a bunch of smarty-pants. Maybe it's right, but it's
still annoying.
His reviews of Bailey and Parker CDs are good, for the most part.
> > I don't know why he continues to review the albums, but I
> > guess Cadence reviewers don't have a lot of control over what they get.
>
> Bingo!
I know a guy who's getting really sick of reviewing organ jazz
discs.
- -- Charles
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:47:42 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <gill0042@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Collectors vs. appreciates: qu'est-ce le difference?
Even though he told me not to read it,
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:52:07 PDT, "Scott Handley" wrote:
> An issue which I've thought about stems from Brian Eno's comment to the
> effect that the problem w/ jazz is that so much of it just sounds like
> more jazz. I see his point, and to an extent I agree with it. I have a
> difficult time seeing why someone needs every Hank Mobley album, or for
> that matter every Masada album.
I think Eno's comment is very strange. If you enjoy Masada, then
I imagine you enjoy the general sound (the "more Masada"), and what
keeps you listening are the details, the variations and permutations
of those scales and timbres. This applies to Mobley, or to that 50th
version of "I'll Remember April." Of course jazz sounds like more
jazz; romantic music sounds like more romantic music, a realistic
still life looks like other realistic still lifes. What's important
are the little differences, and I'm surprised that someone who's made
a big part of his name on little differences wouldn't understand that.
- -- Charles
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:58:33 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <gill0042@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re[2]: Masada Box
On Tue, 22 Sep 98 13:58:37 -0500, brian_olewnick wrote:
> For me, as I almost always am buying records which I haven't heard previously,
> often by artists unfamiliar to me, package design does sometimes strongly
> influence the decision.
I find this sometimes comes into play even with familiar artists--I
had to stop and think for a minute before I got the Parker/Guy/Lytton
_At The Vortex_ on Emanem, after I saw the dorky photograph plopped in
the middle of a field of hot pink.
I'm not going to be able to see Masada at Tonic as I thought I would
three months ago. I am, however, hoping to make it to Chicago on Oct.
11th to see the Ab Baars trio and Misha Mengelberg trio.
Last night I saw the opening show of the Lounge Lizards tour. John
Lurie seemed quite happy and chatty, even though he thought the playing
was a bit rough. It was loud and powerful stuff. I remember Doug
Wieselman's (only) clarinet solo as a particular highlight, but overall
I was impressed by everybody in the band.
- -- Charles
I'd be listening to Fred Lonberg-Holm's _Personal Scratch_, were I
listening to music at this point.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:39:21 -0400
From: stephen drury <stevedrury@mindspring.com>
Subject: donatoni concert in boston
on the italian-jazz-12tone-avant garde-soundscape frontier:
a concert featuring music by composer franco donatoni ("Lumen", "Rima" for
solo piano, and "Hot" for swingin' ensemble), along with music by cage (some
of Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano) and bartok ("Contrasts") at
Paine Hall, Harvard U. Music Bldg, 8pm saturday sept. 26. free and open to
the public
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:58:30 -0400
From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps)
Subject: Re: collecting music
>> >Am I imagining it, or are some of you more interested in
>> "collecting"rather >than actually listening to and enjoying the music?
>
>You seem to imply they are mutually exclusive.
That's not at all what I intended. I was responding to Scott Handley's
delight that he had only purchased one of the Masada discs, since they are
ultimately to be released as a box set. As opposed to the pleasure of
having enjoyed them as they've been released during the past few years, it
just struck me as a curious attitude - but maybe it's just that I'm not
that good at delayed gratification.
As an admittedly extreme and absurd example, can you imagine someone who is
thrilled that they haven't bought any John Coltrane Quartet records on
Impulse over the past thirty five years so that they can buy the box set
coming out soon without duplicating any previous purchases. For me, it
seems to miss the point.
>Having a good music library is equivalent to having a good literature
>library, IMHO. As the spouse of an archivist, I must say that I have a
>very hard time getting rid of ANY music I buy, and I'm always wanting
>more. Not because I'm a "completist" by any stretch, but that I'm
>genuinely interested in the music, and interested in having it in my
>library.
The ludicrous number of records/CDs (not to mention books) that I have in
my house would assure you that we're kindred spirits, Matthew.
Ashley
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:29:02 -0700
From: "schwitterZ" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Well I'm not buying ANY recordings because in my next life they'll have
developed implants whcih will make all of the music ever recorded available
at the flip of a twitch.
s~Z
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:35:27 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: collecting music
In a message dated 9/22/98 11:06:14 PM, mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us wrote:
<<Well I'm not buying ANY recordings because in my next life they'll have
developed implants whcih will make all of the music ever recorded available
at the flip of a twitch.>>
does anyone know if this will include an original cast recording of Stomp?
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:26:43 +0200
From: nclaeys@unicall.be (nathalie claeys)
Subject: recordshops in Tokyo/Osaka
>Which is to say that the Japanese market is by no means a
>small and insignificant thing.
Sorry to post this unrelated question but I would like to know if there are
any good recordshops in Japan that I should need to pay a visit. I am
visiting Tokyo and Osaka (among many many other). As I have enough *okane*
to spend on several CD, I'ld like to know about shops that stock records
like The Ruins, Boredoms,... Oh yes, anything else besides the Boredoms and
Ruins , concerts or CDs, that I need to check out?
Nathalie
np Continued Story/Daniel Johnston
"The night comes crawling in on all fours
sucking up my dreams through the floor..."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:14:07 -0400
From: Taylor McLaren <tmclaren@uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Re: collecting music
MEEP! ashley capps wrote:
>That's not at all what I intended. I was responding to Scott Handley's
>delight that he had only purchased one of the Masada discs, since they are
>ultimately to be released as a box set. As opposed to the pleasure of
>having enjoyed them as they've been released during the past few years, it
>just struck me as a curious attitude - but maybe it's just that I'm not
>that good at delayed gratification.
Boxed sets have always sort of bothered me that way... on the one hand,
they appear to be bought almost solely by crazed fans who can't get enough
of a particular artist's work (casual newcomers, I'm betting, rely more on
best-of releases or the recommendations of others who are more familiar
with the work in question); on the other, those same fans likely own almost
everything that appears on those sets (hence all of that damned
unreleased-and-live material). As somebody who is new to Zorn's work in
general, I'm hesitant to explore Masada immediately because it's quite
possible that I'll like it enough to want to buy the entire set when it is
released... why spend all of that extra money now? (This is hardcore
student reasoning.)
If nothing else, I'm at least looking forward to the time when all of the
crazed fans on this list start selling off the original releases for a
couple of bucks apiece in order to pay for the big ol' box... it'll make
dipping my toes into the project a whole lot more feasible than it is right
now.
- -me cheap-ass bastard, you jane
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:55:53 +0200
From: "dekater" <dekater@worldonline.nl>
Subject: Re: Bacharach covers
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Kirk did als 'Alfie' on 'Now please don't you cry, beautiful Edith.
Jan Luyben
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Kirk did als 'Alfie' on 'Now please =
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jan =
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- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #471
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