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Zorn List Digest      Friday, September 18 1998      Volume 02 : Number 464



In this issue:
-
       Re:Braxton
       Re: stomp
       Re: Marc Bolan
       Aporias requia, the bribe, ganryu island
       Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
       Fwd: [CV2] Fantomas "Chariot Choogle"
       zorn show review/tapes
       winant collection
       Stop Stomp/avant elitism
       Re: avant snobs eat shit / Squarepusher
       Re: Stop Stomp/avant elitism
       Re: avant snobs eat shit / Squarepusher
       Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
       Re: C Melody sax
       Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
       Re: C Melody sax
       RE: Re[2]: please stop: solution
       Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
       Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
       Bacharach
       Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:01:46 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Braxton

>In terms of the mid-low horns (i.e tenor), just what is a C-Melody. Braxton
>played it on the 7 Comp. Trio 1989 disc, some others do also (Paul Dunmall
>for instance)

A C Melody sax is a sax that hardly ever gets used.  For some reason I
remember reading about it as being "not a real" sax, whatever that means.
It's closest to a tenor, I think.  Tenors are in Bb and Altos are in Eb.
Maybe the C Melody is particularly easy to play.  I don't know why it
doesn't get used all that often.

Dan



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:01:53 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stomp

At 11:17 AM 9/18/98 -0400, Brent Burton wrote:

>we talk about cats now?  or maybe jewel's new book of poetry?

I don't want to sound ignorant, but who is jewel?


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:06:50 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marc Bolan

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:45:18 -0700 (PDT)  Tosh wrote:
>
> Tower just received the new Zorn/Marc Bolan collection.  I remembered one
> person on the list thought it was so-so.  May I have other opinions?

I have been listening to it 4/5 times and I am not really impressed.

Marc Bolan's music is rock and exhibits a high impact/technique ratio.
Very few "downtowners" have what I think is a rock sensitivity (even
those, like Cochrane, who really try hard to rock but always (IMHO)
miss the target). At this moment, the covers by Arto Lindsay and
Mike Patton are the only ones that I wait eagerly when playing the
record.

Result? Everybody is doing what there are good at and the material they
build on seems to be of little importance (could almost have been
anybody else).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:17:59 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Aporias requia, the bribe, ganryu island

well,
maybe i missed the reviews for these CDs...
if not maybe someone should send em .. hmmm??

BJOERN


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:52:41 -0700
From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )

(I'll admit I haven't read the list charter, if there is
one.)

There is a list charter, and it is the best list charter I've seen on any
list. I've sent copies of it to other lists. If everyone followed the
suggestions on the charter, it'd clean up the communications considerably.

And, like it or not, it explicitly states that this list is for discussing
music directly connected to Zorn. The list owner is usually not heavy-handed
about enforcing it though.

s~Z


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:31:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Fwd: [CV2] Fantomas "Chariot Choogle"

- --WebTV-Mail-873994043-407
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

FANTOMAS COVERS MARC BOLAN.  BELOW IS A SOUND CLIP.


- -Theo


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Subject: [CV2] Fantomas "Chariot Choogle"
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ok, i don't know that much about recording files, but i did my best.

http://members.aol.com/iiicujoiii/fantomas_cc.wav
42 second sample - 938,870 bytes
Fantomas
"Chariot Choogle"    1:51
Marc Bolan - Great Jewish Music
Track 7 - arr. by Fantomas/Mike Patton
Voice, All Instruments MIKE PATTON

enjoy

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To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:03:40 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn show review/tapes

>>Just thought you folks would be interested: the concert dates are at Slim's
>>in San Francisco on Sept. 15 and 16; the first concert is billed as "An
>>Evening with John Zorn, Mike Patton and Dave Lombardo."

>>The one on the 16th is "John Zorn's Xu-Feng with Trey Spruance, John Schott,
>>Chris Brown, Dave Slusser, Dave Lombardo and William Winant / Mike Patton's
>>Feedback Etudes and Phono Sanjo."



1. someone listed a great review on the first show. thank you very much! any
reviews on the second night? is "phono sanjo" a new piece by patton?

2.did anyone tape these shows or know of anyone who did?

thanks mucho-

jt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:07:23 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: winant collection

on the inside of patton's second solo release "pranzo oltranzista" the photo
"intonarumeri" is credited to "the winant collection".

is the winant collection related to william winant? is he a photographer? is
this from a series of collected photos?  thanks

jason


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:03:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Gretz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stop Stomp/avant elitism

Nowhere in the description of the list does it say who NOT to talk about.
Whether you like stomp or not they are outside of the mainstream in terms of
A: They are not in heavy musical rotation on the radio, MTV, etc.
B: They are not usuing conventional instruments.
C: What they are doing is original (yeah, i know Neubauten, Test Dept. etc,)
but they are also incorporating dance into it which none of those other groups
did.

Until the guidelines of appropriate discussion are set in stone (which they
shouldn't be that would be ridiculous to set up "rules" per se) then there
shouldn't be any problem.  That's kind of funny setting up "rules" for a list
that is dedicated to music that breaks "rules".   It's kind of hypocritical but
then again so is most of the "downtown" scene.  I only come on this list to
read about Mike Patton coz he's a rock star. And no discussion of Jewel because
she has the word jew in her name.   :)

jeff




- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:44:05 -0500
From: nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit / Squarepusher

In the interests of group maturity, I'd like to point
out that when a group gets topheavy and runs out
of things to talk about, it ends up talking about
itself.  Congratulations on reaching the beginning
of the end.  Fortunately there's enough new blood
here that it's not too much of a problem (yet).

Re: Squarepusher, one little nugget which has
not been mentioned is the Vic Acid EP, which is
also on Warp and has some of his more manic
moments on disc.  I like this one a lot.  For the
neophyte, I would agree about Feed Me Weird
Things.

(The Squarepusher thread is not off-topic, in
case you're wondering.  Remember the Derek
Bailey d'n'b record?  DJ Ninj wishes he was
Squarepusher.)

hasta
n


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:14:20 -0700
From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stop Stomp/avant elitism

<<That's kind of funny setting up "rules" for a list that is dedicated to
music that breaks "rules".>>

I'd like to see see Zorn's reaction if you played in Cobra or Masada with
him and tried to break his rules. You'd learn in a hurry about the place of
rules when it comes to Zorn. Or try sitting in the balcony and breaking the
'no talking during the set' rule.  He may break some rules, but he clearly
replaces them with others.

s~Z


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:19:39 -0700
From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit / Squarepusher

<<In the interests of group maturity, I'd like to point
out that when a group gets topheavy and runs out
of things to talk about, it ends up talking about
itself.>>

And THEN it ends up talking about itself talking about itself. Oy veh!

Uroboros~Z


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:01:22 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )

>>>>> "schwitterZ" == schwitterZ  <[e-mail]> writes:

    schwitterZ> And, like it or not, it explicitly states that this
    schwitterZ> list is for discussing music directly connected to
    schwitterZ> Zorn. The list owner is usually not heavy-handed about
    schwitterZ> enforcing it though.

'directly connected' still provides a *lot* of latitude.  Since JZ is
executive producer for two phenomenal and very wide ranging
collections of music (the Avant and Tzadik labels), which opens the
door to musique concrete (Luc Ferrari and Jim O'Rourke), sound
sculptures (Mamoru Fujieda), and contemporary classical music (the
whole Composer series).  Zorn's own participation in extremely subtle
and quiet music (Redbird) leads without a stretch to Morton Feldman
and the rest of Feldman's descendants.  Cobra and the game pieces are
an interesting approach to group improvisation, and one can (and does)
bring up Butch Morris and other non-jazz improvisation groups, such as
Morphogenesis and Polwechsel.  Heck, even discussion of straight jazz
artists, like Cecil Taylor or Coltrane, is a stretch, as there isn't
much jazz in Zorn's output.

- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:59:42 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: C Melody sax

In a message dated 98-09-18 12:05:57 EDT, you write:

<< A C Melody sax is a sax that hardly ever gets used.  For some reason I
 remember reading about it as being "not a real" sax, whatever that means.
 It's closest to a tenor, I think.  Tenors are in Bb and Altos are in Eb.
 Maybe the C Melody is particularly easy to play.  I don't know why it
 doesn't get used all that often.
  >>

I wasn't initially going to get into this discussion, but I might be able to
offer some real info on this. I used to play saxes a lot, and owned a C Melody
for a while. If I remember the details right, its just slightly smaller than a
tenor, which would raise its pitch from B flat to C, hence the name. As for
the purpose.....I think it was primarily for marching and concert band use,
since the player wouldn't have to transpose the music as he would on either a
tenor or alto.

I hope that helps, if you have any more questions about this, feel free to
email me.

Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:03:12 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )

In a message dated 98-09-18 12:15:44 EDT, Dan Hewins writes:

<< When there was a lot of talk about Tony Conrad in the
 past month I wasn't all that interested but I didn't ask anyone to stop
 talking about it.  >>

This brings up a really good point.....if someone doesn't like the off-topic
threads on this list...perhaps the should join a Jewel list and wait for Zorn
to come up.

Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:11:06 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: C Melody sax

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:59:42 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I wasn't initially going to get into this discussion, but I might be able to
> offer some real info on this. I used to play saxes a lot, and owned a C Melody
> for a while. If I remember the details right, its just slightly smaller than a
> tenor, which would raise its pitch from B flat to C, hence the name. As for
> the purpose.....I think it was primarily for marching and concert band use,
> since the player wouldn't have to transpose the music as he would on either a
> tenor or alto.

If I remember well, the melody C was developped for non musicians. There was
even a time (long ago) when there was a fad about playing saxophone and the
melody C was developped at that time (there were ads in magazines about
melody C, next to ones to loose weight :-).

As far as military is concerned, the B and E flat family was designed for
the army; the A and C for classical music. Needless to say, the family
designed for the army won.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:10:34 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: please stop: solution

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 9:31 AM

>      threads with
>      inauspicious beginnings (and, personally, I have less than
> no interest
>      in Stomp) can branch in almost fractal fashion into potentially
>      fascinating territories, such as high art/mainstream
> boundaries, that
>      were never, presumably, envisioned by the initial poster.

Though this debate has been endlessly recycled on every music-related
mailing list and newsgroup, no (second only to the "sellout/no sellout"
debates and bad grammar flames)? (I can see it now: one post will invariably
mention the Spice Girls.)

All right, let me branch out a little bit: saw used copies of that Sonny
Clark Memorial Quartet CD and the first Lounge Lizards CD at the
neighborhood record store. Are they worth picking up? (All I know of Lurie's
music is his composition on Kronos Quartet's "Winter Was Hard.") If the
Sonny Clark CD is as good as "News for Lulu," then I'm sure I'll enjoy it
(my only beef with that latter album is that they should've had Frisell step
closer to the mic).

Later,
Ben


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:29:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> This brings up a really good point.....if someone doesn't like the off-topic
> threads on this list...perhaps the should join a Jewel list and wait for Zorn
> to come up.

Actually, on the Ecto list, which tends to be about female
singer-songwriters and from which a lot of Jewel's early support (when she
was still living in her can and touring relentlessly) came, we *are*
discussing Zorn.

 -
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:22:12 -0700
From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998

> Brax plays a mean stutter-solo on tenor on the double-CD concert disc
> QUARTET (LONDON) 1985.  That's the one that comes to mind.

which piece does he play tenor on? I never noticed any tenor, and it's
not credited on the the LP version.
> Two albums I
> really really like are QUARTET (VICTORIAVILLE) 1991 and QUARTET (SANTA
> CRUZ) 1993 (which suffers from occasionally poor recording, but not too
> bad).

I have to say that I find the Santa Cruz recording to be exquisite both
in sound and content.

- --



[e-mail]
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
(L. Evangelista)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 98 16:26:54 -0300
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Bacharach

"Does Zorn really see genius in the author of "What the world needs
now", or is he just playing a joke on the experimental intelligentsia
that worships his every move?"
(David Yaffe- Down Beat- December 1997)


Last week someone (didn't save the post) asked for opinions on the Great
Jewish Music: Burt Bacharach, and my opinion is that though it didn't
impressed me as The Circle Maker did, it is a nice record with at least
eight amazing tracks (from twenty) that worth the price.In fact, just
Douglas/Caine/Robinson's "Wives and lovers" version does.
IMHO, other highlights are MM&Wood, Marie MC Auliffe (any opinions on
her?), Horvitz/Young/Wolf/Holcomb's Close to you" (it's perfect and
amazing), M.Patton, Maestro Frisell(he kills alone), Klusevsek (another
lone killer) and the stunning "Promises, promises" by The Great Erik
Friedlander/Chimera.
All in all, a double cd to absolutely have.

- -Hugo

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:00:39 PDT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998

The sound is great when you can hear what's being played.  At times Brax
walks away from the mic or something; I remember parts on at least (I
think) the first disc, where whole chunks of his solo are almost
inaudible---lost in the mix, though before the mix even happened.  You
are right about the album as a whole.  Way better than avg live
document.  I mean, Brotzmann's LIVE IN BERLIN 1971 is almost
CRUCIAL---it's brutal and just paint-peeling with intensity: great
music, but the recording is pretty damn mediocre.  I love those records.
I recommend everyone but fans stay away from the 2CD 12 COMPOSITIONS
(QUARTET) 1993 on Music and Arts.  They are pretty badly recorded, and
they are bleeding chunks from several performances.  Really good liner
notes by Henry Kaiser, and a great label, and PRODUCED by Braxton, the
notes say....so why such a lackluster package and recording? (The
performances are even pretty good.)

>I have to say that I find the Santa Cruz recording to be exquisite both
>in sound and content.
>
>--
>
>
>
>[e-mail]
>http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba
>
>I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
>(L. Evangelista)
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

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