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Zorn List Digest      Friday, September 18 1998      Volume 02 : Number 463



In this issue:
-
       re: Masada
       avant snobs eat shit  : )
       stomp
       Re: stomp
       RE: please stop: solution
       I'm Getting Dizzy!
       "Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones"
       Re: please stop: solution
       Re: Off topic, Squarepusher
       Re: Stomp
       Re: Off topic, Squarepusher
       masada 8, 9, 10
       Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
       Re: Masada
       Marc Bolan
       Re[2]: please stop: solution
       OFF TOPIC: motown books
       Re: stomp
       Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:01:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Masada

William York was saying...

>
>Could you explain this?  Recently in Cadence there was a negative review
>of Masada 9 which said it was basically cheap exotica or something and
>compared it to Herb Alpert's Tijuana Brass.  I think a lot of the Masada
>stuff has a sense of humor to it and I don't really understand these
>sorts of criticisms (as in, "this is Jazz" or "this is Jewish music" and
>it must obey certain rules...).
>

I saw that review...what a joke.  You know those people who love to listen
to themselves talk?  Well, I think this is a clear case of somebody who
likes to watch themselves type.  He could have writted the 1st 3/4 of it
without even listening to the album; I'm not sure if name dropping Morton
Feldman is supposed to impress anybody or what, but it doesn't.  I
started a kind of angry letter to Cadence (not b/c he knocked an album by
JZ, I haven't even heard it - just cause they printed such a piece of
bilge), I think I just may finish it up today.

I don't know what the moral of this whole story is, other than I wouldn't
take any of the criticism listed above as serious.  you're right
though, this certainly isn't the 1st time this criticism has come up.  I
frankly think it's idiotic.  Can you imagine taking Masada 10 back to the
store you got it from - "I'd like to return this, please.  It's a good
jazz album, but not as Radically Jewish as was advertised."


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:04:25 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: avant snobs eat shit  : )

well,
since i got more than one positive response to my last two mails saying
SORRY SORRY SORRY for asking about stomp i feel as if there is no use to
send this mail...anyways i'll do it...

i was just thinking about some stuff that was said about mainstream etc.

shouldn't we as the experimental/avant fraction be the more open minded
ones???
i mean i understand when someone who thinks that bon jovi is the coolest
thing on earth doesnt get into merzbow.
but i do not really understand someone who is into zorn who thinks that
MAINSTREAM topics should not be discussed.
i always felt that this list is a list of experts in music and i always
liked the freedom of asking anything i wanted to.......
no matter if it was about the coolest r'n'b records or the best coltrane
records (funny enough that noone mentioned that coltrane is off-topic as
well....at least i cannot see what he has to do with zorn and the downtown
scene)
in my opinion zorn is one of the musicians who took alot of influences
from mainstream music.
i mean listen to tracks like SPILLANE. so much mainstream stuff is used in
that collage piece.
and remember the GREAT JEWISH MUSIC series.
my father (haha yeah we don't want to talk about music that our dads would
like) who is only 4 years older than Zorn didnt listen to BACHARCH in the
late 60s because he thought that it was too MAINSTREAM...what a shame-----

about that "not-being-open-minded-for-good-music-in-general-don't-care-if-
it's-mainstream-or-not" - attitude:

think about Zorn in his creative years -.....(haha someone will kill me
for that)...
when NAKED CITY played songs like JAZZ SNOB EAT SHIT i don't think that
song titles like that were only used to shock the audience (that was
mainly a jazz audience at that point of time). i think zorn wanted to say
that a jazz guy should be open minded for anythink...like an avantgarde
fan should be open minded for anything.
if zorn had written that piece in 1998 he would have called it AVANTGRADE
SNOB EAT SHIT...i'm sure.

oh well and yes MARC BOLAN was not mainstream at all-....

just my shit....
if u dont wanna read it...............press the DELETE button


BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:05:56 PDT
From: "john clasen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: stomp

8 posts about "Stomp" vs. 18 posts about "stop stomp"
This demonstrates the uselessness about complaining for some thread
someone doesn`t "like".
If Mr.Burton wouldn`t have complained this discussion would have ended
sooner.Same happened in the past with other themes.
Be more broad-minded!!

Jo

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:17:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stomp

nOn Fri, 18 Sep 1998, john clasen wrote:

> If Mr.Burton wouldn`t have complained this discussion would have ended
> sooner.Same happened in the past with other themes.
> Be more broad-minded!!

what a load of crap.  i'm fine with 200 messages about bill laswell (whom
i don't like one bit), because he is an artist who is tangential to john
zorn.  stomp sucks and doesn't have anything to do with john zorn.  can
we talk about cats now?  or maybe jewel's new book of poetry?

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:16:37 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: please stop: solution

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of BJOERN
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 3:39 AM

> i remember when i asked this question about the all-time top 20 records
> (some of u might remember) and asked for private responses (since this was
> not that much list-related in my opinion) alot of people shouted for
> responses to the list....

Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
informative threads I've ever seen on this list, especially to a relative
newbie like me. So don't worry -- this STOMP thread is mutating pretty
interestingly anyhow...

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 07:52:20 -0700
From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: I'm Getting Dizzy!

Why do the people who say they are open-minded get so much in a huff when
people disagree with them?

gees~Z



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:33:51 -0400
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: "Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones"

>From: [e-mail]
>"Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones"
>CD, a sequel to "Gravikords, Whirlies and Pyrophones" on Ellipsis Arts
>(just reissued in smaller format).  Each release consists of a nicely done
>96 page book and CD introducing various instrument builders and their
>creations.  Tom Waits, ZGA, Lou Harrison, John Cage and others are
>represented on Orbitones.

Wow, it's good to hear that there is a sequel to "Gravikords, Whirlies and
Pyrophones".  That first book/cd set is a top-class production.  The idea
of a sampler of experimental instruments accompanied by in-depth descriptions
of the instruments, commentary from the creators, and nice pictures of the
instruments is an interesting niche that (as far as I know) only Ellipsis
Arts is filling.  (Are there others?)
The "Gravikords, Whirlies and Pyrophones" cd is fantastic,
including names known to the Zorn list, like Hans Reichel on his daxophone
(and I should add that the daxophone piece "Le Bal" is a good example
of the music that fills Reichel's all-dax operetta on FMP, "Shanghaied on
Tor Road"), and Ken Butler on his guitar devices, to a bunch of unknowns
(to me) who were almost all delightful,
as well as some historical experimental instruments, like the theremin.
I will be checking out "Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones".
Thanks for the info.

David K.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:01:56 -0700
From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop: solution

<<Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
informative threads I've ever seen on this list>>

Amen to that. I still refer to those lists when looking for new things to
buy.

s~Z


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:34:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: jascha <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Off topic, Squarepusher

> In the interest of keeping on topic, I have another off topic post. :-)
>
> I've finally decided to check out Squarepusher. I've narrowed my
> first purchase down to "Hard Normal Daddy" or "Feed Me Weird Things".
> Could i get some recommendations/descriptions of these

I would go for 'feed me weird things'.

The PORT RHOMBUS single is also really really good.

- -jascha


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:35:11 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Stomp

In a message dated 98-09-18 11:22:43 EDT, [e-mail] (Brent Burton)
writes:

<< what a load of crap.  i'm fine with 200 messages about bill laswell (whom
 i don't like one bit), because he is an artist who is tangential to john
 zorn.  stomp sucks and doesn't have anything to do with john zorn.  can
 we talk about cats now?  or maybe jewel's new book of poetry?
  >>

I'm a big fan of Bill Laswell, and like much of his work quite a bit. I've
seen Stomp live and absolutely loved it. Bought their t-shirt too. I have
loads of Zorn discs, although I can't say I understand everything he does. I
can't stand cats, and I'm allregic to them anyway. And I don't know dick about
Jewel, and don't care to. The point? Its all relevant, and I don't see any
reason why any of this couldn't be discussed here. I think its really kind of
pathetic that some list-ers get so flamed about ANY of the threads this list
takes. You have a delete key. Use it.

Dale.

NP: Wayne Horvitz - 4 + 1 Ensemble


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:41:01 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Off topic, Squarepusher

> In the interest of keeping on topic, I have another off topic post. :-)
>
> I've finally decided to check out Squarepusher. I've narrowed my
> first purchase down to "Hard Normal Daddy" or "Feed Me Weird Things".
> Could i get some recommendations/descriptions of these

feed me weird things is definitely Tom Jenkinson's best record to date.
also the Burning'n'tree compilation of the stuff he did before FEED ME is
pretty good.
hard normal daddy is the jazziest one although i think that it is
sometimes quite lame.
the PORT RHOMBUS ep is his best ep in my opinion...
i couldnt get into BIG LOADA though

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:43:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: jascha <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 8, 9, 10

I've got the first 7 masadas.  To me, 5, 6 and 7 sound different than 1,
2, and 3 - mainly in the greater tendency towards the 'jazz' side of the
klezmer/jazz thing.  6 is especially different.

So i was wonering if the next batch of three - 8, 9, 10 - are different
again from the previous two (plus number 4...).  Any opinions?

- -jascha


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:41:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )

>The great thing about this list is that it does go off-subject time to
>time.  John Zorn is a big subject, and where that subject may go or not go
>should be mentioned on the list.  Whatever it is STOMP or isn't Stomp.  So
>keep rockin' Bjoern!

- -----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
- ----------------



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:43:41 -0500
From: Eric Saidel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada

I'm not sure if I should respond to this, but here I go anyway.


Tom Benton wrote:

> William York was saying...
>
> >
> >Could you explain this?  Recently in Cadence there was a negative review
> >of Masada 9 which said it was basically cheap exotica or something and
> >compared it to Herb Alpert's Tijuana Brass.  I think a lot of the Masada
> >stuff has a sense of humor to it and I don't really understand these
> >sorts of criticisms (as in, "this is Jazz" or "this is Jewish music" and
> >it must obey certain rules...).
> >
>

I don't have the review in front of me, so I can't comment on specifics, but I
did read it, and I found it interesting.  Remember, you don't have to agree
with a review.  That's not the point of reviews.

My sense is that the reviewer (I don't remember who it was right now) didn't
think that the music played in Masada went beyond cheap exotica.  That's a
fair opinion.  Not one I happen to agree with, but that's okay with me.

Here's what Tom has to say:

> I saw that review...what a joke.  You know those people who love to listen
> to themselves talk?  Well, I think this is a clear case of somebody who
> likes to watch themselves type.  He could have writted the 1st 3/4 of it
> without even listening to the album; I'm not sure if name dropping Morton
> Feldman is supposed to impress anybody or what, but it doesn't.

Yeah, he could have written a lot of it without listening to the album.  I
don't like doing this, but I'm not sure if this is a bad thing.  Part of the
point of a review is to put music in a context (and put the reviewer's
opinions in a context so that they are more easily judged).  That's what I
think he was doing.


> I
> started a kind of angry letter to Cadence (not b/c he knocked an album by
> JZ, I haven't even heard it - just cause they printed such a piece of
> bilge), I think I just may finish it up today.

Well, what would you have had them do?  Reject the review because they don't
agree with his opinions or his approach?  That's not Cadence's policy.  They
print the reviews as opinions of their reviewers.  I am sure there are plenty
of reviews in Cadence that make Bob Rusch cringe - because he disagrees with
the point of view, or he doesn't like the style.  Frankly, I prefer the open
editorial policy that they maintain.  Once reviews are canned for reasons like
this, it's a short step to canning them for having the wrong opinion about the
cds.

(Besides, can you really say that it's the "bilge" and not the opinion that
got you upset.  If the reviewer had gone on and on about the relationship to
"Jewish" music and Jazz and the academy, etc., and then ended with a glowing
endorsement of this disc and Zorn's Masada project, would you really be this
upset?)


>
>
> I don't know what the moral of this whole story is, other than I wouldn't
> take any of the criticism listed above as serious.  you're right
> though, this certainly isn't the 1st time this criticism has come up.  I
> frankly think it's idiotic.  Can you imagine taking Masada 10 back to the
> store you got it from - "I'd like to return this, please.  It's a good
> jazz album, but not as Radically Jewish as was advertised."

Ah, but this is an unfair criticism of a review.  The point of the review
isn't that the disc should be returned, but that the buyer should have a
better idea of what s/he is buying.  In that context it's completely fair to
point out that the music is not as advertised.

- - eric



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Marc Bolan

Tower just received the new Zorn/Marc Bolan collection.  I remembered one
person on the list thought it was so-so.  May I have other opinions?

- -----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
- ----------------



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 98 11:31:29 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: please stop: solution

     Ben wrote:

>Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
>informative threads I've ever seen on this list, especially to a relative
>newbie like me. So don't worry -- this STOMP thread is mutating pretty
>interestingly anyhow...

     Ben makes the pertinent point here, I think: that threads with
     inauspicious beginnings (and, personally, I have less than no interest
     in Stomp) can branch in almost fractal fashion into potentially
     fascinating territories, such as high art/mainstream boundaries, that
     were never, presumably, envisioned by the initial poster.

     Brian Olewnick




- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:51:11 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: OFF TOPIC: motown books

i just surfed the net for a book about MOTOWN...
i found these:

1.Early, Gerald: one nation under a groove: motown and american culture

2.George, Nelson: where did our love go?: the rise and fall of the motown
                sound

3.Gordy, Berry: to be loved: the music, the magic, the memories of motown

4.marsh, dave: women of motown: an oral history

5.motown anthology


does any of u guys own one of these....and can anyone of these tell me
which one is good????

thanks

all others please press release..send answers PRIVATELY (off topic!!!!!)

BJOERN


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:57:54 PDT
From: "john clasen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stomp

>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: stomp
>In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
>Message-ID:
<[e-mail]>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk

>what a load of crap.  i'm fine with 200 messages about bill laswell
(whom
>i don't like one bit), because he is an artist who is tangential to
john
>zorn.  stomp sucks and doesn't have anything to do with john zorn.  can
>we talk about cats now?

Does your cat mew as Zorn`s alto ?


<Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
informative threads I've ever seen on this list>>

I Remember the "owner" of the list trying to stop ( or stopping)this
thread.
JO




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:56:05 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )

>if u dont wanna read it...............press the DELETE button

I agree.  The subject line of a message often describes the subject of the
message contained.  When there was a lot of talk about Tony Conrad in the
past month I wasn't all that interested but I didn't ask anyone to stop
talking about it.  I just hit delete and that was that.  I don't see this
forum as a strictly Zorn and directly related one, I like to think that
it's a place for people who like Zorn and music that's related to talk
about music.  (I'll admit I haven't read the list charter, if there is
one.)  Part of what I like is that I can ask for Ground Zero
recommendations if I wanted to and get a bunch of responses.

Dan



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #463
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