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Zorn List Digest        Monday, August 24 1998        Volume 02 : Number 448



In this issue:
-
       mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!
       Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!
       Barbetomagus
       mild dissention/ Douglas & Cohen cds= BRAVO!!
       ganryu island and bolan
       Re: ganryu island and bolan
       Re: Borbetomagus
       Re: Brian's recent goodies
       [Fwd: Re: Brian's recent goodies]
       Re: Brian's recent goodies
       Marc Ribot and Tricky
       Re: Marc Ribot and Tricky
       Re:  Marc Ribot and Tricky
       Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!
       Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
       Re: skills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:49:39 -0400
From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!

Thank goodness for the zorn-list-digest format ... whopping % of the
latest discussion threads(music ability, ...et al) have me wondering if
folks are listening / have time to listen to any of the music vaguely hinted
at in said discussions.  Its not without merits and it is a noble cause but
hey folks, its still summer

currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs

;^ ) Bob

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 98 15:23:24 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!



Bob wrote:

>currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs

Ok, ok, musico-philosophical arguments suspended...for at least one post.

Which Douglas do you mean? I picked up "Charms of the Night Sky" (Winter &
Winter) last week and enjoy it quite a bit, though I'm a sucker for anything
with Klucevsek. My wife was pleasantly surprised at the appearence of the Tosca
piece; between this and La Banda, she thinks she'll have me loving Italian opera
yet. Also picked up eight or nine others (birthday splurge). After I give them
another listen, I'll post some mini-reviews. They included:

Rabih Abou-Khalil       Odd Times
Peter Brotzmann         Chicago Octet/Tentet
Cornelius Cardew        Thalmann Variations
Cornelius Cardew        Piano Music 1959-71 (John Tilbury on piano)
Kevin Drumm             Kevin Drumm
Fredric Rzewski         De Profundis, etc (Anthony da Mere on piano)
Howard Skempton         Well, Well, Cornelius (Tilbury)
John Wall               Fractuur

Anyone who's already heard these, I'd love to hear comments. Much of the
Brotzmann is killer.

Brian Olewnick

NP: Barry Adamson, As Above So Below





- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:54:46 -0600
From: Chris Sundberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Barbetomagus

I was looking at Music Boulevard for a Zorn CD and I looked for related
artists, I found one, name Barbetomagus.  If anyone here could point me
in the direction of how to get a CD or a realaudio sound clip I would
much appreciate it.

\mOONS/


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 98 17:07:24 -0300
From: [e-mail]
Subject: mild dissention/ Douglas & Cohen cds= BRAVO!!

Brian Olewnick wrote:

>Winter) last week and enjoy it quite a bit, though I'm a sucker for
>anything with Klusevsek

Does it mean it's not a recommendable cd? Not good enough?
Please more light on this.


- -Hugo

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:15:51 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: ganryu island and bolan

2 questions. what is ganryu island? is it another lost classical composition?
or what? and also can someone please resend the list of performers and songs
on the bolan tribute?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:27:27 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ganryu island and bolan

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:15:51 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> 2 questions. what is ganryu island? is it another lost classical composition?
> or what? and also can someone please resend the list of performers and songs
> on the bolan tribute?

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

031 - GANRYU ISLAND: Michihiro Sato and John Zorn

    1/ Ryu Kyu Heishi (Warrior from Ryu Kyu)                             6:09
    2/ Haguregumo (The Wanderer)                                        14:10
    3/ Two Ronin                                                         3:49
    4/ Kagemusha                                                        10:39
    5/ Odori Dayu (Evening Dance of a Courtesan)                         5:16
    6/ Ganryu Island                                                    11:09
    7/ Yoshiwara Kaidan (Ghosts of the Geisha District)                  3:30

    Recorded on November 23rd, 1984, New York City

  Michihiro Sato: shamisen; John Zorn: reeds.

    1985 - Yukon Records (USA), Yukon Records 2101 (LP)
    1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ ???? (CD)

  Note: the CD reissue has not been released yet (planned for September 1998).

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** - GREAT JEWISH MUSIC: MARC BOLAN: various artists

  This record features Arto Lindsay (1), Rebecca Moore (2), Kramer (3),
  Melvins (4), Medeski/Martin & Wood (5), Lo Galluccio (6), Mike Patton (7),
  Tall Dwarfs (8), Chris Cochrane (9), Gary Lucas (10), Eszter Balint (11),
  Audio Noir (12), Danny Cohen (13), Elysian Fields (14), Sean Lennon & Yuka
  Honda (15), Cake Like (16), Trey Spruance (17), Buckethead (18), Lloyd Cole
  (19).

    1/ Children Of The Revolution        (Arto Lindsay)
    2/ Telegram Sam                (Rebecca Moore)
    3/ Get It On                (Kramer)
    4/ Buick McKane                (Melvins)
    5/ Groove A Little                (MM&W)
    6/ Cosmic Dancer                (Lo Galluccio)
    7/ Chariot Choogle                (Mike Patton)
    8/ Ride A White Swan            (Tall Dwarfs)
    9/ Rip-Off                    (Chris Cochrane)
    10/ Debora Arobed                (Gary Lucas)
    11/ Mambo Sun                (Eszter Balint)
    12/ Jeepster                (Audio Noir)
    13/ Lunacy's Back                (Danny Cohen)
    14/ Life's A Gas                (Elysian Fields)
    15/ Would I Be The One            (Lennon, Honda)
    16/ Love Charm                (Cake Like)
    17/ Sceneslof                (Trey Spruance)
    18/ 20th Century Boy            (Buckethead)
    19/ Romany Soup                (Lloyd Cole)

    1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 71?? (CD)

  Note: not released yet (planned for September 1998).

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:32:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "M.A. Piper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Borbetomagus

Chris,

Forced Exposure offers several of their CD's

there's a good interview with Jim Sauter (sax) at:
http://www.furious.com/perfect/borbetomagus.html

the borbetomagus website: http://www.j51.com/~borbeto/

The self-titled BORBETOMAGUS is what I'd suggest for starters. Borbeto is
really, really intense free improv and definitely not for the timid.

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Chris Sundberg wrote:

    >I was looking at Music Boulevard for a Zorn CD and I looked for related
    >artists, I found one, name Barbetomagus.  If anyone here could point me
    >in the direction of how to get a CD or a realaudio sound clip I would
    >much appreciate it.
    >
    >\mOONS/
    >

Best,
Michael


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:53:44 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies

    brian> Rabih Abou-Khalil Odd Times

Isn't this the one with Howard Levy (harmonica)?  I've got a couple of
other Abou-Khalil albums which I really liked (one of the jazz ones
with Kenny Wheeler and Steve Swallow, and Arabian Waltz with the
Balinescu Quartet), but this one hasn't done anything for me yet,
maybe a little too frantic.  As I remember it's kind of percussion
heavy too, and there's no harmonic middle to fill things out.

    brian> John Wall Fractuur

Excellent!  More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound
world.  The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in
live instruments as well.  I've also splurged recently and got the
Resonance magazine with Wall playing live with some DJs on the CD --
I'll post something when I've had a chance to listen to it.




- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:42:17 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Brian's recent goodies]

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:41:37 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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Caleb Deupree wrote:
>
>     brian> Rabih Abou-Khalil Odd Times
>
> Isn't this the one with Howard Levy (harmonica)?

That's the one. I've only listened to it once, but liked it pretty well.
It's less jazz-oriented than I might have guessed, sounds a lot more
like something Simon Shaheen might have done with this instrumentation
(oud, harmonica, tuba and percussion).

>Fractuur
> Excellent!  More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound
> world.  The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in
> live instruments as well.

Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the
samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some
Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems
much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is,
musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his
earlier stuff well worth checking out?

Brian Olewnick


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:31:27 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies

At 05:42 PM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Fractuur
>> Excellent!  More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound
>> world.  The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in
>> live instruments as well.
>
>Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the
>samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some
>Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems
>much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is,
>musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his
>earlier stuff well worth checking out?
>
Alterstill is *definitely* worth checking out.  There's a lot of the same
kind of atmospherics, but then he'll toss in some recognizable Zorn or
Painkiller or some other heavy metal stuff.  The first one (name escapes
me) is much harder to find and embryonic.  The interview with him in
Resonance 6.2 is also worth reading, going into some depth on his methods
and rationales.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:22:19 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marc Ribot and Tricky

    I just bought the CD EP BROKEN HOMES by Tricky and (to my surprise)
noticed that Marc Ribot plays on one track (acoustic guitar!). Does somebody
who has Tricky's last full length record could check if Ribot appears on?
Same question for the other CD EPs (there seen to be at least two).

    Thanks,

    Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:33:31 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marc Ribot and Tricky

At 12:22 PM 8/23/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>    I just bought the CD EP BROKEN HOMES by Tricky and (to my surprise)
>noticed that Marc Ribot plays on one track (acoustic guitar!). Does somebody
>who has Tricky's last full length record could check if Ribot appears on?
>Same question for the other CD EPs (there seen to be at least two).

Ribot appears on one other track on the CD (_Angels with Dirty Faces),
titled "Talk to Me."


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:43:10 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Marc Ribot and Tricky

Ribot appears on three songs on Tricky's recent full-length, Angels With Dirty
Faces: 6 Minutes, Talk To Me (Angels With Dirty Faces), and Broken Homes.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:55:35 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!

> Thank goodness for the zorn-list-digest format ... whopping % of the
> latest discussion threads(music ability, ...et al) have me wondering if
> folks are listening / have time to listen to any of the music vaguely hinted
> at in said discussions.

As a matter of fact I just picked up the following CD's this weekend:

Sheena Parkins-Isabelle
Marc Ribot-Shrek and Don't Blame Me
John Zorn-Masada 1
Cyro Baptista-Villa Lobos Vira Loucos
Dave Douglas-Tiny Bell Trio (second album)

Recommendations are welcome. Btw, has any of you heard the following
album? It's by Zorn, Sharp, Horvitz and Previte. I don't remember the
title.

Jeroen

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:42:10 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...

> J.T. de Boer wrote:
> >"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering
> >music as art."
> You have switched our argument from
> "non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians
> make music inferior in various artistic qualities to
> the music made by trained musicians."
>
> These statements are two entirely different statements.

Hi David,

No, for me they're not. When I talk about music in this discussion,
I mean music as art. That's possibly the reason why my point of view
didn't get across and why my opinion seems so rigid. Indeed the
discussion started as the question whether anyone could make music,
but for me it was a logical step to broaden the discussion, because
art became involved. I understand that this could seem like a escape
from the discussion, but it's not.

Furthermore you seem to think that I connect technical ability of
playing an instrument with art. I wrote in an earlier email:

> Of course there are people who take the idea
> of minimalist music (by hearing minimal music) and produce a
> composition based on the parameters of minimalism, but I make a
> distinction between people who can't work out an idea by themselves
> and people who use the example to generate individual
> ideas/compositions. I admit this is almost impossible to distinguish
> but it's the theoretical idea I have. In this case people who can't
> play an instrument can be good composers and vice versa.

Art for me (and I'm sure for many other people) can be defined in a
very broad sense. Judging music as art and/or order it as good/bad is
largely a matter of flexibility. Of course I can use the factor of
technical ability in my judgement, but I trie to be as impartial as
possible. When you say a virtuoso player can have uninspired
performances or ideas I totally agree with you, but maybe there are
other factors that can make their music art, for instance their
motives to play a certain piece, or their artistic system if they
have one.

> We were only discussing the first statement.  In order
> to discuss the second statement we must first agree that
> your scale of "gradation in considering music as art"
> exists.

I think just this question can work out as a clarifying aspect of the
discussion, because we don't share the same point of view.

> In that case, since we have established the existence of such a
> discrepancy in our two scales, we imply that it is
> possible for a non-musician (low instrument proficiency score)
> to create a piece of high compositional merit.  I'm not saying
> it is done every day but I am saying it is possible and that it
> has been done...

...As I said in the above mentioned earlier email...

>  This argument I
> think illustrates that "Not only can
> non-musicians can make music but it is possible for non-musicians
> to make music of equal or superior quality to that of trained
> musicians."

Now you're mingling two totally different aspect of music: the
ability to play and the ability to compose. The art in music for me
only exists if the idea of a piece is existing in the artists' mind.
I think it's essential to determine which aspect of music we're
talking about.


Jeroen


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:19:01 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills

> I take issue with this: I agree with whoever said that learning more
> about music opened up many different doors and showed me that
> different things were possible  in the instruments that i was using,
> yet at the same time - don't consider myself to be a 'better' musician
> than when i started out.

Please let me make clear that I've never said that a better
instrumentalist is also a better musician. Some people on the list
seem to think that, but it's just not the case. I'm not sure whether
it's an argument which is used solely to attack my opinions or a way
of thinking that is based on a defensive attitude against a so-called
'elitist' approach towards 'non-music' which I seem to represent. In
either case these aren't good arguments to discuss with me,because
they aren't applicable to this thread.

>  the 'vocabulary' of
>  music as you put it, is
> something that everyone has.

No, first of all I mean that everybody (in this case anyone who
makes,or think who makes music) *seems* to have it, and besides that
I think that if anyone has a thourough command on this
vocabulary,this doesn't mean that all of these persons can make
music, music as art.

> Also, how about folk musicians (Tuvan overtone singers for example).
> They often have NO musical training of an official nature and
> understand nothing about music in a formal sense.  They understand
> sound and they understand what makes them want to make music.  They
> have SOUL.  (or we hope they do) that's what makes successful music.
> For that matter howabout Chet Baker, most people would call him a
> musician, but he didn't even know what a key signiature was (i
> personally find his playing pleasant but rather dull sometimes).

A I stated in earlier emails one can't compare cultural outings which
come from a complete other culture (Tuvan) or period (Baker), at
least not in this discussion, because I stick to the opinion that
this thread is about contemporay music. You can pass judgement on
them though but in that case it's not  solely about the art as art
anymore, but you integrate history in it as well (it is nice to
discuss though!).

> > I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier  it's not
> > about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
> > used to create the wanted sound.
>
> Let me guess, you don't go dancing very much.

Well, I dance a lot:). Please let me make clear that the view you
used from me is now completely separated from the original context:

I wrote:
> When Stockhausen produced his first
> electronic compositions he had a clear vision of what he wanted and
> worked out the technology necessary. In modern dance music you now
> hear many of the sounds created by Stockhausen but I consider these
> sounds alone less artful than the original sounds.

Enjoyment is not the issue here. I mean, I enjoy a lot of
dance-music, blockbuster-movies etc., but you won't hear me say that
all of these forms of culture art artforms.

>  Or i completely misunderstood your
> point of view.

No, not completely:)

Jeroen


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #448
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