ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v02.n447

Internet Message Format | 1998-08-20 | 34KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #447
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest        Friday, August 21 1998        Volume 02 : Number 447



In this issue:
-
       Re: New Don Byron
       Pizza, mandolini e mamma
       Experimenta en internet
       Links
       Auction - Free jazz/avant garde LPs
       Re: skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list
       Re: everyone can make music
       Re: New Don Byron
       Not only can everyone make music but...
       Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
       Help Wanted
       Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
       zorn-list Info Sheet (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:02:23 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Don Byron

On 20 Aug 1998 19:03:07 GMT  Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
> I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album.  Nobody can
> accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure.  It's
> already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote).
                     ^^^^
Amos cares about Byron? I thought he was only annoyed at Peter Brotzmann and
Evan Parker :-).

    Patrice (who's missing the fun).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:21:20 +0200
From: campax <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pizza, mandolini e mamma

Curiosity killed the cat, I know : Is there any italian, or italilian
speaking, on this list?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:28:17 -0300
From: "Claudio Koremblit" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Experimenta en internet

Desde hoy el ciclo porte=F1o de musicas experimentales de todo el mundo,
Experimenta, tiene su pagina en la red, con la informacion de los musicos
que se presentaran durante el a=F1o, ensayos, biografias, fotos, y en poc=
o
tiempo mas se agregara la informacion de los artistas que participaron=20
en el 97 y los que lo haran en el futuro. Mucha de esta informacion esta
por primera vez en castellano en la red. Los musicos argentinos=20
participantes no estaban representados en este medio.
Desde el 12 de septiembre se transmitira en vivo por la red.
Cualquier propuesta o sugerencia sera bienvenida.


Since today Experimenta, experimental music series from all over the worl=
d
in Buenos Aires, have a web site on internet, with information about
the musicians that will make presentations during the 98, essays,
bios, pictures, and some time more later will have the information
about 97 and the future. Mostly of this information became to the
internet for the first time in spanish. The argentinian musicians
don't have other sites on line.
Since september 12 will transmite the performances on internet.
Some proposal or suggestion will be grateful.

http://www.datamarkets.com.ar/experimenta

[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:41:39 -0600
From: Chris Sundberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Links

Does anybody know some good Zorn or Naked City links? I've been to
tzadik.com, and that is great, but I want all I can get.

\mOONS/


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:29:24 +0800
From: [e-mail] (Sibree/Wilkes)
Subject: Auction - Free jazz/avant garde LPs

List members might be interested in my latest auction list posted to
rec.music.marketplace.vinyl under the heading of NUMBAT JAZZ AUCTION LIST 5
- - MOSTLY FREE JAZZ/AVANT GARDE.  Alternatively, email for details.  Please
note my computer will not be in operation between 23 and 27 August.

Billy



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:37:27 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list

> I have reversed the order of your comments but I don't believe that I have
> changed the meaning by doing so.  You seem to be saying that music can be
> considered (judged?) against the relationship of the artist's work to
> society.  Is a work without the proper cultural context for it's existence
> a "valid" one?

I discussed this with a friend yesterday, and in the case of music
it's difficult to find out in which case music is relevant:
sociological/philosophical/music-theoretical. What's the meaning of a
certain work? Music it's the most abstract artform there is, so
grasping the meaning of a work seems to be most valid (or better
said, the slightest abstract approach) when being familiar with the
sociological background of the musician/composer or the world
surrounding him. Popular music-criticism is almost totally based on
this view.
In the case of "serious music" this sociological point of view isn't
as dominant as in the popular music domain, because theoretical
analysis of the work itself is largely the basis of judgement. But
because of the complexity of the musical language it's almost
impossible to judge a work only on this language.

>  You also seem to be
> assuming that society is the catalyst
> for artistic change. I believe however that an artist creates an atmosphere
> for artistic revolution..how else can we explain resistance?
> "Another issue of art is why it is created"
>
> Then you have given us another criterion for criticism. If art has a "why"
> then if that "why" is not satisfied it must be invalid. For criticism to be
> invalid, artistic endeavour has to be completely motiveless.

There are art-theories that contend the argument that artists work
with an artistic system, a model that justifies a work. Now
(postmodern society) it's precisely the time to use these systems to
judge works of art, because nearly every artist seems to have his own
artistic language. The problem with this theory is the fact whether
an artist really works with this model. A lot of artists only give
meaning to their work after completion, or give a meaning only to
make a work more valid in terms of criticism. Judging works on this
ground is only possible when you know an artist is really working
with such a system.


Jeroen de Boer

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:10:45 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: everyone can make music

David Keffer wrote:

> With regard to literature, there are works in existence where the
> writer was "uneducated", where the writer had only a rudimentary
> knowledge of syntax and grammar, and a coarse vocabulary. All the same, those books were
> brilliant with common sense, humor, and the humility of one who had
> no control over the actions, which he was ordered to commit day
> after day for three years.
>
> So my point is, just as it is not necessary to be a trained writer
> to write an insightful, useful, and enjoyable book, so too is it
> unnecessary to be a trained musician to make music.
>
> David K.

I wrote:
> <<No it's not. I hate being called an elitist because I have certain
> ideas about music>>

From which position do you judge these works then? You compare my
opinion about not mastering the language of music with your jugements
on not mastering the language of literature. You have to pay
attention to keep in mind where these creators plus the people who
judge come from. In your case first there is a substantial gap
between the time of creation and the time of judgement and second a
totally different sociological background. My judgement is completely
based on contemporary music (whether it's popular or non-popular) and
on contemporary criticism. I don't deny the fact that a work which is
produced by someone who isn't capable to play with the relevant
artistic language can't be interesting/humourous etc, but I don't say
it's art. The books in your example I don't consider as literature
when judged with contemporay parameters, but as an historican I maybe
*can* see it as literature. This argument I can basically use in my
opinion about not judging certain " forms of sound" as music/art. I
believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering music
as art.


Jeroen

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:10:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Don Byron

> > I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album.  Nobody can
> > accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure.  It's
> > already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote).
>                      ^^^^
> Amos cares about Byron? I thought he was only annoyed at Peter Brotzmann and
> Evan Parker :-).
>
>     Patrice (who's missing the fun).

I don't know anything about rmb or Amos but I know this is the kind of
album that would annoy precisely the right people I would like it to.  I
mean, I don't agree with all of "Furman", the last song, but its good to
not agree with everything I think.

I feel like people, even conservative jazz fans, are more comfortable with
the supposed "socio-political implications" of Charles Gayle, for example,
or other folks who are so far on the margins that its like they're
screaming into the wilderness, rather than someone like D.B. who has a
more visible, direct approach.  I think in this way D.B. is more
challenging to people's preconceptions, so I would expect criticisms.  (he
has a lot in common with J.Z. and Ken Vandermark for ex. who 'have it
together', and they all 3 seem to catch more crap than the avg. poor as
dirt free jazz player).

Nothing against Charles Gayle, no offense meant to his fans (Of whom I am
not one for what its worth).

William York



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:20:41 -0400
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Not only can everyone make music but...

J.T. de Boer wrote:
>"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering
>music as art."
You have switched our argument from
"non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians
make music inferior in various artistic qualities to
the music made by trained musicians."

These statements are two entirely different statements.
We were only discussing the first statement.  In order
to discuss the second statement we must first agree that
your scale of "gradation in considering music as art"
exists.  Of course, there are many people who don't believe
there is any substance to an arbitrary value system assigned
by one segment of the population that ranks one form
of art/music/lit as "esthetically superior" to another.  I am
one of them.  So, I don't think we have a common ground to
discuss the new topic.  But......since I am a son of a bitch
who just likes to argue, let me pretend that I do believe
that art/music/lit can be ranked in terms of merit, that
it can put into various gradations of an undefined "goodness".

Let me use a different sort of hypothetical example.
Surely you will not say that there is a direct correspondence
between the skill of the musician and the "merit" (for lack
of a better word) of the music.    If we lived in a world
of Olympics-style scales, and if we gave a musician a score of 5
(on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a non-musician, and 10 being a
virtuoso) in terms of instrument proficiency, that doesn't mean that
we will give his music also an "art factor" of 5 (on a 1-to-10)
scale.  A musician with a lower instrument proficiency ranking
could very well create a piece of music with a higher art factor
than that of a musician of high instrument proficiency.  (I think you
must agree with this.  There are examples of uninspired performances by
virtuosos all over and uninspired compositions by virtuosos.)
In that case, since we have established the existence of such a
discrepancy in our two scales, we imply that it is
possible for a non-musician (low instrument proficiency score)
to create a piece of high compositional merit.  I'm not saying
it is done every day but I am saying it is possible and that it
has been done.  This argument I think illustrates that "Not only can
non-musicians can make music but it is possible for non-musicians
to make music of equal or superior quality to that of trained
musicians."

David "Art Factor" K.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:57:06 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:20:41 -0400  David Keffer wrote:
>
> J.T. de Boer wrote:
> >"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering
> >music as art."
> You have switched our argument from
> "non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians
> make music inferior in various artistic qualities to
> the music made by trained musicians."

It is fairly common knowledge that when people talk about things and
put them in two boxes (such as "good" and "bad"), this has to be
interpreted as a continuum of values ranging from "bad" to "good",
with, in the middle a region where you keep your judgement for
yourself :-). It is common, in the fire of an argument, and based on
economy principles, to project a complex problem with many degrees
of freedom (such as aesthetic value in art) on a single line with
ordering properties, and, to avoid boring your audience, finally
down to two alternatives: pretty/ugly, good/bad, smart/stupid, etc.
It does not mean that the person using the binary reduction of the
complex problem is naive to the point of believing it literaly. It
is just a commodity of language.

I guess J.T. de Boer realized that this simple evidence about the
most elementary rule of rethoric was still escaping some :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:43:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Help Wanted

I have and enjoy the following:
Naked City(self titled) Radio,  Black Box
Zorn - Filmworks 1,3,5,6,and 8
           a few others but this is my favorite stuff.

Could someone Email Me privately on some recomendations.  Something
along the lines of the above albums....Thanks


- -Theo





- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:52:39 -0400
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>...It does not mean that the person using the binary reduction of the
>complex problem is naive to the point of believing it literaly. It
>is just a commodity of language.
>I guess J.T. de Boer realized that this simple evidence about the
>most elementary rule of rethoric was still escaping some

You speak of the "good/bad binary reduction" but the two statements in
question deal with two different reductions.  One is the music/non-music
binary choice.  The second statement implies the good music/bad music
binary choice.  I think, especially in the arena of experimental music,
that these two reductions are distinct.

David K.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn-list Info Sheet (LONG)

                    The John Zorn Mailing List
                     Subscriber Information
                         9 July 1998

[NOTE: Please save a copy of this message for later reference]


ABOUT THE ZORN LIST
    The Zorn list was created so that fans of John Zorn and his
    MANY projects could come together and chat about the man and
    his music...Naked City, Masada, Painkiller, etc.....

    Also discussed on this list, are:
    Bill Laswell, Bill Frisell, Elliott Sharp, Bobby Previte,
    Wayne Horvitz, Zeena Parkins, Knitting Factory roster artists,
    Joey Baron, Last Exit posse, and any other downtown NYC
    connected musicians.

GENERAL
    Message Topics: Please keep the topics of your messages relevant
    to the subject of the mailing list.

    FAQ: There is a list of frequently asked questions on the zorn-list
    available on the web at http://www.browbeat.com/zornlist/faq.html
    Please read the FAQ when you first subscribe to avoid asking
    a question that has already been discussed, ad nauseum.

    Courtesy: To make this mailing list useful for the greatest number
    of people, please treat your fellow list members with courtesy.
    Please refrain from actions that would detract from the value of the
    list for other members.

    Related Websites: The fine folks at WNUR have a created a web page
    for John Zorn which contains links to all of the known Zorn related
    websites. The WNUR page can be found at
    http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/


CONTACTING THE LIST ADMINISTRATOR (aka HUMAN CONTACT)
    If you need assistance, have comments or suggestions, do not hesitate
    to contact the list owner, Mike Rizzi (that's me) at

        [e-mail]


SENDING MESSAGES TO THE ZORN LIST
    You must a member of the zorn list before you can post messages to the
    mailing list (see HOW TO SUBSCRIBE section below for more info).

    To post to the list, send your mail to

        [e-mail]

    which will then distribute your words of wit and wisdom to
    all the current members of the list.

    IMPORTANT NOTE:
    You MUST send your messages FROM the computer account
    you used to subscribe to the list, otherwise the message
    will bounce to me and not be sent to the other subscribers.
    This feature prevents our list from being "spammed" with
    unwanted junk mail from non-subscribers.

    SECOND IMPORTANT NOTE:
    When sending a copy of private email to the list, please
    make sure that you remove the email headers. Not doing so
    has the unfortunate side effect of breaking the digest.


SIMPLE TEXT ONLY
    Please only post messages with simple (ASCII) text,
    anything else can cause your prose to be interspersed
    with funny symbols like ^t and =20 when read by others.
    Also, not everyones mail readers can display MIME files
    and special characters (curly apostrophes and quotes,
    accent marks, etc.). European and Mac users take special
    note here.


ATTACHING FILES
    Please don't attach files to messages posted to the Zorn mailing
    list. Paste in the relevant text if it's a reasonable size,
    provide a URL where it's available, or send the file by private mail.


MESSAGE LENGTH
    Please limit messages to 7K in size.  Messages larger than that
    will automatically go to the list owner for approval at their
    leisure. Heh.


REPLYING TO MESSAGES ON THE LIST
    If you reply to someone on the list, it will only go to that person
    unless you explicitly add [e-mail] to the To: or Cc: fields
    of your mail message header.


QUOTING IN A REPLY MESSAGE
    A good message does not contain the entire text of the message
    to which it's responding; only the relevant parts (usually a single
    sentence or sentence fragment) should be included. Do not quote an
    entire message or an entire paragraph unless it's absolutely
    necessary. There's an enormous amount of traffic on the xmission.com
    mailing lists; please do your share to cut down the load by
    quoting effectively (especially since xmission is hosting us gratis!).

    Trimmed messages also keep the digests and archives neat, tidy
    and easy-to-read. Digest subsribers will thank you.

    By far the best reply simply refers to the message author and a
    one-sentence description of the subject; for example, "John Doe
    asked about Masada 9."  If you think it's necessary to quote portions
    of the previous message, include only the portions that are really
    essential. Remove the previous authors signature line. Only
    quote/attribute (>) enough to give context to your reply.

    DON'T QUOTE 100 LINES OF TEXT, THEN POST A 2 LINE COMMENT.


SUBJECT LINES
    A good message always uses a meaningful subject line. This helps you
    and other members of the list, since many members only read selected
    messages based on the subject. As a result, messages without a subject
    line or with vague subjects like "Help needed" may get less response.

    If you have a digest subscription, you should always change the subject
    line in your replies from the original digest subject, which looks like
    this: "Zorn List Digest V2 # XXX".


HOW TO SWITCH FROM INDIVIDUAL MESSAGES TO A DIGEST
    The Zorn mailing list sends out messages as they are received
    (aka "regular mail" aka "real-time mode") in order to facilitate
    discussion and allow for timely notice of upcoming shows.

    If you prefer to receive a digest form of the Zorn mailing list
    (one email for every bunch of messages), then send an email
    (the Subject line is ignored) to
        [e-mail]
    with the message text

        subscribe zorn-list-digest
        unsubscribe zorn-list
        end


HOW TO SWITCH FROM A DIGEST TO INDIVIDUAL MESSAGES
    Send an email (the Subject line is ignored) to
        [e-mail]
    with the message text

        subscribe zorn-list
        unsubscribe zorn-list-digest
        end


HOW TO SUBSCRIBE
    To subscribe to the Zorn mailing list send an email
    message (the Subject line is ignored) to
        [e-mail]

    with a message text of either

        subscribe zorn-list
    or
        subscribe zorn-list-digest

    You will receive a confirmation request message that you
    must reply to, following the instructions in that message.
    When the list server has received your confirmation reply,
    you will be sent a list subscription confirmation and a welcome
    message containing further helpful information. If you need
    assistance, contact the mailing list administrator
        [e-mail]


HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE
    To unsubscribe from the Zorn mailing list send an email
    message (the Subject line is ignored) to
        [e-mail]

    with a message text of either

        unsubscribe zorn-list
    or
        unsubscribe zorn-list-digest


ARCHIVES
    Back issues of digests and monthly archives are available
    via anonymous FTP at:
        ftp.xmission.com:  /pub/lists/zorn-list/archive

    or via your favorite web browser at:
        ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive


IF YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS CHANGES
    Your e-mail address may change for many reasons, including:
        * You change ISPs or employers.
        * Your ISP or company changes their e-mail software.
        * You change e-mail software on your computer.
        * You change your ID with an online service.

    If your address changes for any reason, you should unsubscribe your
    old address and resubscribe your new address. If you are unable to
    unsubscribe your old address, contact the list administrator. That's
    the best way to be certain you'll be able to post messages and
    sign off in the future without assistance.


IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO POST MESSAGES OR SEND COMMANDS
    If your e-mail provider or mail system administrator makes changes to
    their system or you change e-mail programs, the address your messages
    appear to come from may change. A common example is when
    [e-mail] becomes [e-mail]. That will prevent
    the majordomo list server from recognizing you and accepting your
    messages. In this case, you will have to unsubscribe your old address,
    and resubscribe with your new address.


IF YOU RECEIVE MAIL DELIVERY FAILURE NOTICES
    If you receive a message saying that a message you just posted to a list
    could not be delivered, that usually means a problem in some other list
    member's mail. If you receive a copy of your own message back from the
    list, you can be sure that your message was sent to the other list members.

    When you receive such a delivery error message, please forward it to the
    List Administrator. That way the problem can be corrected so other members
    don't receive the same error when they post messages.


YOU MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE LIST
    A variety of problems can cause messages to fail to reach you. Errors
    encountered can include full mailbox, user unknown, unable to locate your
    domain, unable to contact your mail server, and many others. Most of these
    are temporary errors that quickly go away. Others are permanent problems
    that cannot be corrected. Sending messages that cannot be received by the
    list member wastes resources.

    If errors are reported that indicate you are unable to receive messages
    from the list, or if you cannot receive messages from the list, you will be
    removed from the list.

    If you are removed from the list, a notice will be sent to you periodically
    by the majordomo mail list server telling you that you were removed from
    the list and need to resubscribe.


VACATIONS AND OUT-OF-OFFICE AUTO-REPLIES
    If you won't be checking your mail for more than a few days, you should
    consider switching to a digest subscription or stopping the list messages
    entirely during that time. Otherwise, your mailbox could fill up during
    your absence. Besides being a nuisance when you return, this can cause
    you to miss important messages. The "mailbox full" errors will also
    cause you to be removed from the list, as described in the previous
    section YOU MAY BE REMOVED FROM THE LIST.

    If you use any form of auto-reply message, particularly the automated
    out-of-office messages supported by some e-mail systems, and you receive
    individual messages from the mailing list, your auto-reply messages may
    be sent to everyone who posts a message to the mailing list during your
    absence. Auto-reply messages may be treated as errors and you may be
    removed from the list.


SIGNATURE BLOCKS
    Distinctive signature blocks are a tradition on the Internet, but on
    the Zorn list we ask members to keep the signature shorter than the
    message as a courtesy to other members. Ideally, signatures should not
    exceed a few lines. Large ASCII graphics are particularly distracting
    and unacceptable.

    The most important part of the posting should be your message,
    not your signature.


MESSAGES IN LANGUAGES OTHER THAN ENGLISH
    The mailing list is international, and it is important to assist people
    who don't read and write English as long as we can do so without disrupting
    the list. Also, we shouldn't be hypercritical and nitpicking of
    list members language skills. However, it's best if messages can be
    posted in English simply so the largest number of people can participate
    in the discussions. It's strictly a pragmatic issue.

    French speaking fans of creative avant-garde improv music may be
    interested in the Fennec mailing list. For more information, please
    visit their website at http://www.fennec.digiweb.fr/


NETIQUETTE
    Here are a few tips on netiquette:

    DON'T send lines longer than 75 characters. This is a kindness to folks
    who have terminal-based mail editors. Some mail gateways truncate
    extra characters, turning your deathless prose into gibberish.

    Some mail editors seem to insert line breaks for you but actually don't,
    so every paragraph turns into one immense line. Learn what your mail
    editors do by mailing a message to yourself and reading the message in
    several mail readers. Most mail programs will let you read your message
    in a plain, vanilla form, the way others will see it.

    DON'T SEND A MESSAGE IN ALL CAPS. CAPITALIZED MESSAGES ARE HARDER TO
    READ THAN LOWERCASE OR MIXED-CASE MESSAGES.

    DO use normal capitalization. Separate your paragraphs with blank lines.
    Make your message inviting to your potential readers.

    DON'T betray confidences. It's all too easy to mistakenly quote a
    personal message in a message to the entire group.

    DO read the "To:" and "Cc:" lines in your message before you send it.
    Are you sure you want the message to go there?

    DO treat every post as though you were sending a copy to your boss,
    your minister, and your worst enemy.

    DON'T rely on the ability of your readers to tell the difference
    between serious statements and satire or sarcasm. It's hard to write
    humor. It's even harder to write satire.

    DO remember that no one can hear your tone of voice. Use emoticons
    (or smileys) like :-) or ;^) and tilt your head counterclockwise to
    see the smile. You can also use capitalization for emphasis or
    Usenet conventions for italics and underlined text.

    DON'T put a huge signature at the bottom of your messages.

    DO exercise some restraint. Remember that a large number of mail
    editors out there are set up to use proportional fonts, and your lovely
    ASCII art won't look the way you designed it on those readers.
    Remember also that there's a Usenet newsgroup out there whose sole
    function is to make fun of people's signatures.

    DON'T send a message that says nothing but "Me, too."
    Ditto for "I don't know."

    DO recall that you aren't obligated to reply to everything you read.
    Remember the immortal words of Martin Farquhar Tupper (1810-1889):
    "Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech."


NOTE TO USERS OF MICROSOFT EXCHANGE, OUTLOOK, OR WINDOWS MESSAGING
    Users of Microsoft Exchange or other RTF-capable e-mail clients may be
    accustomed to formatting e-mail messages using colors, italics,
    different fonts, and other features to emphasize portions of
    their messages. Not every subscriber uses e-mail software that
    interprets messages formatted using RTF.

    To make list postings readable by the entire list membership,
    please follow these procedures:

        If you use a Personal or System Address Book entry to write
        to a list, be sure to clear the "Always send to this recipient
        in Microsoft Exchange Rich Text Format" check box in the
        Address properties.

        If you type in the address, always use the form listname@servername
        and not [SMTP:listname@servername] for messages posted to the list.

        If you reply to a message containing RTF formatting, your reply
        will also contain RTF unless you clear the check box in the
        Address properties as described above.

    Do not use RTF formatting such as font, size, color, italics, bold,
    underline, or bullet lists. Please find ways to show the desired
    emphasis using plain text (such as *text* for bold) and similar methods.

    If you use Exchange Server, creating server commands by pasting data
    can cause errors because the server inserts ">" in front of pasted lines.
    Choose Paste Special from the Edit menu, and Select Text rather than RTF
    to avoid this problem.


NOTE TO MICROSOFT INTERNET MAIL USERS
    If your program configuration options use MIME for attached files,
    your entire message will appear to Exchange users as an attached text
    file. This makes it difficult to read and reply to your contributions
    to the list. To prevent this problem, change the file attachment option
    to UUencode or use the options described below.

    If you send messages as HTML instead of plain text, many list members
    will receive the plain text of your message plus an attached file
    containing the HTML. This is distracting, and any emphasis you
    intended through character formatting such as bold or colors will
    be lost, which can change the apparent meaning of your message.

    Setting the following options can resolve both problems:

        Plain/Text
        MIME
        Encode text using: none
        Allow 8-bit characters in headers (disabled)


NOTE TO cc:Mail USERS
    You must turn off the "Retain Original Text" option when replying to
    list messages. This option automatically includes message headers in
    a way that makes your message resemble a transmission error report.
    As a result, messages with the original text included are not posted
    to the list.

    Also see the previous section, QUOTING IN A REPLY MESSAGE.



Thanks for joining the zorn-list.  Enjoy!

    - mike rizzi, [e-mail]





- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #447
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]