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Zorn List Digest      Wednesday, August 19 1998      Volume 02 : Number 445



In this issue:
-
       Re: Shopping in San Fran
       Re: masada 4
       Larry, not Phil (oops)
       Re: Shopping in San Fran
       Re: masada 4
       RE: Skills
       Re: Shopping in San Fran
       Re: skills
       Re: Shopping in San Fran
       Re: skills
       masada 4
       everyone can make music
       Praxis Tour (was Re: San Francisco...)
       Heretic
       Zorn List Digest V2 #443 -Reply
       thanks
       Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
       Re: skills
       RE: Shopping in San Fran

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:30:06 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:04:02 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
>
> I know this has been covered recently so forgive my repetition but would
> anyone care to reccomend disc shops in the San Francisco area? I have a
> friend who will be there in early September. His interests include
> zorn/improv/experimental/psychedelia etc new and used.

This one is fantastic:

        Amoeba Music
        2455 Telegraph Ave
        Berkeley, CA 94704
        Tel: [phone]
        Fax: [phone]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:29:47 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4

>>>>> "Louie" == M Forrest Lewis <[e-mail]> writes:

    Louie> i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was
    Louie> only $12.99).  now the first thing i noticed was the length
    Louie> of the cd being less than 20 minutes. are the rest of the
    Louie> masada's short like this or do they vary in length?  most
    Louie> of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i
    Louie> just wondered if this meant they were all short in play
    Louie> time.  this is my first masada and i'm not complaining,
    Louie> it's what i hoped it would be (at least musically).

Masada 4 was originally a freebie for people who'd bought 1, 2, and 3,
and was an EP rather than a full length release.  The other Masadas
are full length CDs.  You can see all the tracks and timings at
Patrice's excellent discography at
http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html


- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:08:03 -0700
From: Allen Gittelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Larry, not Phil (oops)

Yes, I meant Larry Ochs (though Phil would have been interesting in the
mix). My mistake. -Allen

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran

At 08:30 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>This one is fantastic:
>
>        Amoeba Music
>        2455 Telegraph Ave
>        Berkeley, CA 94704
>        Tel: [phone]
>        Fax: [phone]

I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near
the park.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4

> i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
> now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
> minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
> length?

Masada 4 is the "special offer" masada that you sent in proofs-of-purchase to
get for free (we could call it the Cereal Offer Masada). It is supposed to be a
lot shorter than all the others, though why they are asking an equal price is
kinda iffy.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:22:03 -0400
From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Skills

>You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
>made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
>make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
>isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
>should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
>may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
>copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music.

Ahhh yes, but a person may be able to tell a good story, even if he (or
she) can't write it down.  While it's anything but detrimental to know your
theory, even to know how to play your instrument,  you still need
creativity to makew it interesting/worthwhile.  And, for me, I find that
those who are technically proficient and have a vast store of formal
musical knowledge BUT are not creative (say, Joe Satriani?) are always less
interesting than someone with no musical knowledge, but very creative at
getting sounds out of whatever they are using.  Of course, the only
examples of this I can think of right now are my various artist friends who
would pick up a guitar or someother instrument and just start messing
around with it.  But usually they would get sounds out using some very
bizarre technique.

Formal music theory is merely the semantics of explaining what you are
doing, or attempting to do with a piece of music and/or an instrument.  It
isn't really required to play something, though it definitely helps.  Look
at all the early Jazz and blues greats who didn't read a note of music and
couldn't explain the theory at all, it just "sounded right".  Of course,
that could be why the established music world took so long in recognizing
them as legitimate forms of music....

- -Chris



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:20:43 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700  Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
> has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near
> the park.

A while, as you can guess. Do you have the address?

    Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:22:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: skills

>You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
>made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
>make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
>isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not!

I've never seen a movie by someone who couldn't turn on a camera either.
It's dangerous to over-emphasize the similarities between the arts in this
regard. What aspects of music/sound, literature/writing, or cinema/visuals
are pleasant is an empirical, not rational.  And may not be the same for
different artforms.

Most of this debate seems to be the old "don't exclude me from your
definition" arguement.  As if not having the sound one likes labled "music"
matters.  It's fun to argue deffinition, but does it reduce the enjoyment
of particular sounds should they fall outside the definition.  Perhaps
people should be state more clearly if they are arguing quality or
definition when saying non-musician can or can't make music.


 In the visual arts
>you have the same dilemma with considering childpaintings or works
>produced by the mentally ill as art. The tendency is not to
>describe it as such, because in most cases these people aren't
>familiar with the theoretical/philosophical backgrounds and that's
>what the institutionalized artworld is all about (read Arthur C.
>Danto or George Dickie).

So being familiar with the theories of the institutionalized artworld is
required to make art?  Obviously there's been a long history of trying
remove this world's control over art.

matt


- ------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:24:00 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran

At 09:20 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700  Jeff Spirer wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
>> has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near
>> the park.
>
>A while, as you can guess. Do you have the address?

1855 Haight St
San Francisco, CA 94117-2711



Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:28:27 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200  "J.T. de Boer" wrote:
>
> I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier  it's not
> about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
> used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By saying that you implicitely move the focus from the result (product)
to the rethoric surrounding/justifying it.

Read any Art publication where the rethoric seems always miles ahead of
the final product... You know, when it looks so good on paper and so
deceptive when you finally see/listen to the product.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:13:55 -0600
From: "M. Forrest  Lewis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 4

i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
length?
most of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i just
wondered if this meant they were all short in play time.
this is my first masada and i'm not complaining, it's what i hoped it would
be (at least musically).
also, i've been offline for a while, but i remember someone saying
something about a masada box set. is this in the works or just a rumor?

- -louie

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:55:48 -0400
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: everyone can make music

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
> Why is music something *anyone* can make?
> Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
> isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
> should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
> may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
> copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music.

I have to disagree with this statement.  I remember reading in the
liner notes of a Charles Ives record a statement that Leonard Bernstein
made which ran, "The problem with minimalism is that anyone can do it."
The statement posted above is similar in tone to this statement, which
is basically a statement promoting elitism.  Bernstein implies that
"high art" must exclude the vast majority of the population.  His statement
says nothing about the quality of the music, only that something anyone
can do has some intrinsic problem.  The idea, which you voice above, that
not everyone can make music, forgets that everyone has hands and voices
and creative impulses.

With regard to literature, there are works in existence where the
writer was "uneducated", where the writer had only a rudimentary
knowledge of syntax and grammar, and a coarse vocabulary.  For example,
this weekend I was at the Chickamauga National Military Park, which is
a park on a U.S. Civil War battlefield in Georgia.  While I was there
I read some published journals of confederate soldiers.  These soldiers
had no education, misspelled every other word, had no conception of
punctuation, much less the theory of the elements of a classical
narrative.   All the same, those books were brilliant with common sense,
humor, and the humility of one who had no control over the actions, which
he was ordered to commit day after day for three years.

So my point is, just as it is not necessary to be a trained writer to
write an insightful, useful, and enjoyable book, so too is it unnecessary
to be a trained musician to make music.

David K.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:57:51 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Praxis Tour (was Re: San Francisco...)

At 08:05 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Allen Gittelson wrote:

>"Free Ink:  Aging teen-ager and SF Weekly cover boy Jonathan Richman
>will play a Slim's 10th-anniversary party on Saturday, Sept. 19.
>Co-owner Boz Scaggs starts a 10-day run of celebration concerts with two
>shows and cake and champagne on Sept. 11.  Box Set, Common Sense,
>Praxis, John Zorn, Mike Patton --who will debut two new pieces--and a
>few others will also play gigs through Sept. 20."

Although details aren't final, this is part of a West Coast tour for
Praxis.  Here is more info:

LA: Sept 19, Troubador
SF: Sept 20, Slim's
Seattle: Sept 22, venue not ready to be announced
Vancouver: After Sept 22, no venue yet
Portland: Some possibility of happening on the 21st or after the 22nd.

Praxis will be Buckethead, Bill Laswell, Brain, and a DJ to be announced.

>There is also quite an entertaining/interesting review of last week's
>Spice Girls show at the SF Weekly site (and in the actual paper), but I
>will refrain from even mentioning that it exists here as that would not
>be appropriate.  (Chuckle.  Discuss amongst yourselves if you like.)

I didn't think this review was nearly as interesting as the Chronicle's,
which pointed out that Sporty Spice is called Dykey Spice by some of her
fans.  I would have expected a semi-"alternative" paper like the Weekly to
have given us this tidbit.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:19:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Heretic

Would someone please Emial me privately and give me a detailed
description of Naked City's "Heretic" album.  Much thanks.
     If it would make it easier, I have all the other Naked City
records.  (if it can compare)


- -Theo


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:31:35 -0400
From: Eric Bosanko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #443 -Reply

>I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
>anyone have any recommendations?

Sacrifist is my Fav Praxis Album and gets my utmost reccomendation

Eric

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:41:19 -0400
From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: thanks

Thanks for the many Praxis recommendations.

Marc



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:29:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)

Will Phil Ochs be playing guiatr when he appears with Masaoka and Frith?
It seems to me his live appearance have been pretty sparse since the
early 1980s.

There but for fortune...

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Allen Gittelson wrote:

> A few things in SF you might be interested in:
>
> Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
> at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs.  I experienced this group
> about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite
> superb.  Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else
> was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if
> I have to guess).






- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:42:12 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: skills

> You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
> made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
> make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
> isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
> should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
> may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
> copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. I think
> that this works out bad for music in general and
> experimental/avantgarde music in particular. Please keep that in
> mind.

 I see and understand your point, but you got me wrong. I (and Marion Brown
 in his quote) was talking about the participation of non-musicians, which
 includes the participation of (trained) musicians as well. Brown says he
 had 6 players, 2 vocalists and 3 assistants = non-musicians. In my band,
 I am the only one who can't play, but I'm doing all the arranging, conducting,
 and I'm also seeking out ways to contribute sound like tape, samples or
 something like that.
 The question whether something is art or not is really hard. "But, ahhh,
 shouldn't there be some kind of structure?" (No prizes for guessing where this
 quote comes from.) This weekend, my sister visited me and took place behind
 my drum set, started banging around and screamed. I started screaming too.
 That, of course, wasn't art. We didn't follow any purpose, except to have fun.
 But when I'm "playing" with the musicians of my band, I have prepared concepts,
 we're trying out musical ideas and are actually quite serious about what we do.
 I don't know whether it's art, but since there's some effort behind this
 (in preparation and in execution) I just don't like people to dismiss it as
 something everybody could do (if they could do it, why don't they?).

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:46:53 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Shopping in San Fran

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Jeff Spirer
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 9:05 AM

> I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
> has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight
> Street near
> the park.

Slim pickings for used Zorn right now; just came back from there this
afternoon empty-handed (well, I did come back with the new Bettie Serveert).
(There were used copies of "The Art of Memory," "Locus Solus" and "Yankees"
lying around, though.)

Later,
Ben

np: eric dolphy, "something sweet, something tender"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #445
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