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1998-08-18
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #444
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, August 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 444
In this issue:
-
Re: Weird Little
Re: Weird Little
Re: Miles Davis quote
Re: skills
Re: skills
Re: skills
Re: skills
Shopping in San Fran
San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
masada 4
Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
Re: masada 4
Re: skills
Masada 10
Re: Weird Little
Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:54:42 EDT
From: <TagYrIt@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Weird Little
Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all
of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating?
Dale.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:55:14 +0200
From: "Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs" <m145651202@abonados.cplus.es>
Subject: Re: Weird Little
TagYrIt@aol.com wrote:
> Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all
> of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating?
>
> Dale.
Yes, I am. I have just come back from a trip where I took with me some Zorn┤s
CDs I┤d had no time to listen to (WLB was one of them) and... when I switch my
computer on I find a big amount of messages on this topic.
WLB is, perhaps, Zorn's recent purchases I┤m going to play less; but some phrases
are, IMHO, good enough to keep on trying afterwards ("Seance"... although is not
representative).
Has anybody found a precise relationship beetween the text and the music? I
haven┤t.
Ciao
Paco Fonz
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:55:09 +0200
From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Miles Davis quote
> I didn't quote Miles Davis someone else on this post did.
I did.
>> It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he
>> said of most '60s avant garde artists...
>>
>> Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely
>> things that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him).
>>
>> This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of
>> this discussion.
Yeah, but basically, he dismissed every kind of music except his own (and
the music of his companions). He even dismissed Eric Dolphy, but that's
probably because Dolphy wouldn't want to play in his band. Nevertheless, Miles'
music was very out there, at that time and still today.
Read Lee Jeske's liner notes to "Agharta": "Miles always claimed to hate the
jazz avantgarde--the only innovations of the post-bebop era that didn't have
him at the immediate forefront--but Pete Cosey's first solo, a scratching,
clawing bit of funkified noise over Al Foster's Herculean backbeat, is as
avant-garde as anything being recorded in 1975. And, as Whitehead pointed
out, this band--with its two percussionists and two guitarists and fractured
time signatures--sounds remarkably close to Ornette Coleman and Prime Time
(especially during Sonny Fortune's soulful alto solo in "Prelude"). But Prime
Time wouldn't make its first recordings until the following year."
Kind regards,
- Chris.
---------------------------------------------
* Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de *
* Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
* http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ *
---------------------------------------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:55:08 +0200
From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: skills
Dear Chris,
> As to what you do...you say you are a non-musician?Then what are you
> doing?! You and Mr.MacGregor seem to believe that I represent some sort of
> classical music establishment or something in my definitions of musicians.
> A musician is simply one who organises sound for a purpose-expressing with
> sound alone (versus language). I also happen to believe that if the
> "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not
> involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you
> didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you
> can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the
> performer can take credit for. When you make music are you really unaware
> of what you are doing-are your musical decisions based on your limited
> musical vocabulary or do you free yourself of these constraints by being
> ignorant (you said it). Do you think random noise is music?Do people
> seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative
> wonders of the human ear. That's absurd-keep in mind I'm not saying to
> limit yourself to instruments or written music BUT...
> You have to know what you're doing.
Let me clarify some things, including some of the things you said in other
posts regarding this topic. You took many assumptions based on your experiences
with non-musicians which, however, aren't that true.
First of all, I never said that there's no need to learn an instrument.
Musicians who haved learned their instruments and studied them are capable
of playing lots of stuff which I'll never be able to do. Well, I wish I could
play the guitar like Buckethead, but I can't, and I know that I don't have
the endurance to study it long enough to become a "real" guitar player.
But creating sound collages is a whole nother thang. Other members of the group
*can* play their instruments, and I'm giving certain guidelines, conducting
and adding some random noise, unusual percussion and vocalisms to the
processings. I can't see why I shouldn't do all of this.
Let me quote Marion Brown from his liner notes to "Afternoon of a Georgia
Faun": "The music you're listening to is a collective experience involving
six players, two vocalists, and three assistants. Although I am responsible
for initiating the music, I take no credit for the results. Whatever they may
be, it goes to the musicians collectively. The people that I chose to assist
are not actually musicians, but people who have a sense of rhythm and melody.
My idea here is that it is possible for non-musicians to participate in a
musical experience without being technically proficient in a theorerical
sense. In the future, I intend to use some non-musicians for the same reasons.
It works. Try it sometimes."
Second, it it simply nonsense to assume that people like me aren't music
lovers, but the opposite (what's the opposite of a music lover?). Music is
the highest and purest art for me, but this includes all kinds of music. A lot
of "new music" doesn't sound like music, it sounds like sound. So where should
you draw the borderline?
Third ... you won't believe it, but I have another project running which
I'm doing in the home studio I'm currently building up around my PC. The
music I create there (and please don't ask me whether I use MusicMaker) has
real harmonies, melodies, rhythms ... so I won't claim myself to be a composer,
but I'm an arranger, producer, and engineer of sorts ... so would that change
my status of non-musician? Right, that's difficult. I'm not sure myself.
And fourth ... "being avantgarde" may be cool in our "community", but it's
certainly not among others. If I wanted to be cool, I'd pick up a bass, learn
it for, say, a year and start in a heavy metal or rock band. I don't intend
to say anything against these styles, but that's what the people I know would
think is cool.
Kind regards,
- Chris.
---------------------------------------------
* Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de *
* Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
* http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ *
---------------------------------------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <J.T.de.Boer@let.rug.nl>
Subject: Re: skills
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:55:08 +0200
> To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: skills
> From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel)
> Let me quote Marion Brown from his liner notes to "Afternoon of a Georgia
> Faun": "The music you're listening to is a collective experience involving
> six players, two vocalists, and three assistants. Although I am responsible
> for initiating the music, I take no credit for the results. Whatever they may
> be, it goes to the musicians collectively. The people that I chose to assist
> are not actually musicians, but people who have a sense of rhythm and melody.
> My idea here is that it is possible for non-musicians to participate in a
> musical experience without being technically proficient in a theorerical
> sense. In the future, I intend to use some non-musicians for the same reasons.
> It works. Try it sometimes."
You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. I think
that this works out bad for music in general and
experimental/avantgarde music in particular. Please keep that in
mind.
>A lot of "new music" doesn't sound like music, it sounds like
>sound. So where should you draw the borderline?
I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier it's not
about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first
electronic compositions he had a clear vision of what he wanted and
worked out the technology necessary. In modern dance music you now
hear many of the sounds created by Stockhausen but I consider these
sounds alone less artful than the original sounds. In the visual arts
you have the same dilemma with considering childpaintings or works
produced by the mentally ill as art. The tendency is not to
describe it as such, because in most cases these people aren't
familiar with the theoretical/philosophical backgrounds and that's
what the institutionalized artworld is all about (read Arthur C.
Danto or George Dickie).
Jeroen de Boer
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:37:02 +0200
From: Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
Subject: Re: skills
From: "J.T. de Boer" <J.T.de.Boer@let.rug.nl>
> You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
> made by non-musicians to be art? ...
Music made by non-musicians ?????
If it makes music, it must be a musician a presume (or a
recording-device).
YVes
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:41:16 +0200
From: "J.T. de Boer" <J.T.de.Boer@let.rug.nl>
Subject: Re: skills
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:37:02 +0200
> From: Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
> To: J.T.de.Boer@let.rug.nl
> Cc: zorn-list@xmission.com
> Subject: Re: skills
> From: "J.T. de Boer" <J.T.de.Boer@let.rug.nl>
>
> > You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
> > made by non-musicians to be art? ...
>
> Music made by non-musicians ?????
> If it makes music, it must be a musician a presume (or a
> recording-device).
Ok Yves, you got me there. Slip of the tongue. I meant sound made by
non-musicians. Btw, do you speak dutch?
Jeroen
>
>
> YVes
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:04:02 +0100
From: ScottRussell <ScottRussell@scottishmedia.com>
Subject: Shopping in San Fran
I know this has been covered recently so forgive my repetition but would
anyone care to reccomend disc shops in the San Francisco area? I have a
friend who will be there in early September. His interests include
zorn/improv/experimental/psychedelia etc new and used.
Mail me offlist.
Thanks in advance.
Scott Russell
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:05:09 -0700
From: Allen Gittelson <Allen.Gittelson@eng.efi.com>
Subject: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
A few things in SF you might be interested in:
Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs. I experienced this group
about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite
superb. Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else
was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if
I have to guess).
I found this in today's (Wednesday, August 19, 1998) issue of SF Weekly
(Page 36): [Their web page is: http://www.sfweekly.com , and the current
link to this mention is at
http://www.sfweekly.com/1998/current/riffraff1.html .
"Free Ink: Aging teen-ager and SF Weekly cover boy Jonathan Richman
will play a Slim's 10th-anniversary party on Saturday, Sept. 19.
Co-owner Boz Scaggs starts a 10-day run of celebration concerts with two
shows and cake and champagne on Sept. 11. Box Set, Common Sense,
Praxis, John Zorn, Mike Patton --who will debut two new pieces--and a
few others will also play gigs through Sept. 20."
I don't see any details anywhere of the Praxis, Zorn, or Patton shows at
this venue, but I will continue to look. I have witnessed Zorn and
Patton at this venue previously with Ikue Mori. The show I experienced
was pretty good, but I much prefer Yoshi's as a venue (even though it is
in Oakland which is quite a hike for me).
There is also quite an entertaining/interesting review of last week's
Spice Girls show at the SF Weekly site (and in the actual paper), but I
will refrain from even mentioning that it exists here as that would not
be appropriate. (Chuckle. Discuss amongst yourselves if you like.)
Also, for those of you who are interested in or follow the "goings-on"
of sampling, copyright law, etc. Check out the latest at
http://www.negativland.com . Always interesting to see what they are up
to. They are discussing what amounts to possibly censorship of their
work and the work of others by the RIAA at present. Further details at
their site.
- -Allen
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:13:55 -0600
From: "M. Forrest Lewis" <louie@gwtc.net>
Subject: masada 4
i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
length?
most of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i just
wondered if this meant they were all short in play time.
this is my first masada and i'm not complaining, it's what i hoped it would
be (at least musically).
also, i've been offline for a while, but i remember someone saying
something about a masada box set. is this in the works or just a rumor?
- -louie
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:17:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
At 08:05 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Allen Gittelson wrote:
>A few things in SF you might be interested in:
>
>Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
>at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs.
Surely you mean Larry Ochs, saxophonist from ROVA.
Phil Ochs is lamentably no longer with us.
Ralph
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Ross Davis <mrd@artswire.org>
Subject: Re: masada 4
> i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
> now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
> minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
> length?
Masada 4 is the "special offer" masada that you sent in proofs-of-purchase to
get for free (we could call it the Cereal Offer Masada). It is supposed to be a
lot shorter than all the others, though why they are asking an equal price is
kinda iffy.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:28:27 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: skills
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200 "J.T. de Boer" wrote:
>
> I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier it's not
> about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
> used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
By saying that you implicitely move the focus from the result (product)
to the rethoric surrounding/justifying it.
Read any Art publication where the rethoric seems always miles ahead of
the final product... You know, when it looks so good on paper and so
deceptive when you finally see/listen to the product.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:40:35 PDT
From: "Silent Watcher" <silent_watcher@hotmail.com>
Subject: Masada 10
Sorry if this has already been posted. Masada 10 showed up in our
computer at work this week, with a release date of September 15. Knowing
our how these things run, I assume you all know that this is in no way a
steadfast date.
DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:42:05 -0400
From: Marc Downing <mpdownin@fes.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Weird Little
>Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all
>of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating?
>
>Dale.
>
>-
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:38:32 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:05:09 -0700 Allen Gittelson wrote:
>
> A few things in SF you might be interested in:
>
> Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
> at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs. I experienced this group
> about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite
> superb. Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else
> was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if
> I have to guess).
In fact, I was a little bit disappointed by their show in Portland. Why?
simply because Larry Ochs was overbearing. His playing was too powerful
most of the time, and as a result, the show ended up to be two trios (the
show was in two parts with a break). I would have loved the show to be made of
of the possible combinations: solos, duos, and trio. For example, I would
have love to listen to Fred and Miya playing in duo, but this did not
happen, except for a couple of seconds.
And no, I am talking of the usual sound engineer who cannot mix a concert.
The problem had nothing to do with mixing.
Talking to friends who saw the same band in Vancouver, they were surprised
because what I was expecting was what they saw. I guess, it was not the
best show of this formation.
Patrice (who loves Larry's playing but who would have liked him to
shup up once in a while that night :-).
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #444
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