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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, August 18 1998       Volume 02 : Number 443



In this issue:
-
       Re: Non-musicians
       Re: experimental/ skills
       Re: Michel Godard
       berne's no(h)bag tour: UK / dave Douglas
       Re: Praxis
       Re: Praxis
       Re: experimental/ skills
       VINYL/CD Sale (Updated 8/18/98) ...
       Praxis recommendation
       Re: Praxis recommendation
       Min Xiao-Fen
       Re: experimental/ skills
       Re: Michel Godard
       klezmer theory
       Re: Praxis recommendation
       Re: Praxis recommendation
       Re:  Zorn List Digest V2 #434
       Weird Little
       [Fwd: SONNY SHARROCK TRIBUTE@KNITTING FACTORY 8/23RE]
       Re: Weird Little

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:14:12 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Non-musicians

Just an aside to the debate, but isn't there a big difference between
recorded and live music, in this respect?  That the latter means
you're performing: not that the music can't play a BIG part in
that, but it can't JUST be music in that context, surely?
(Sometimes, this is a problem I have at concerts: I don't feel
they're performing - for this audience, at that time - at all).

Sean

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:24:25 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills

On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700  "Christian Heslop" wrote:
>
> Chris,
>     I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree
> somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to

It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he
said of most '60s avant garde artists...

Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely things
that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him).

This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of this
discussion.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:43:02 +0200
From: "dekater" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Michel Godard

Brian wrote:


>Relistening to the second disc of the La Banda album a few times, I've
>come around to enjoy it more and more, especially the piece by French
>tubaist Michel Godard. Is anyone familiar with his other work?

I'm not familiar with Godards work but during my vacation I bought a Nato cd
in Lyon ('Les films de ma Ville 1' - nato 112033) on which improvising
musicians play film themes (a.o. Steve Arguelles. Steve Beresford, Tony
Coe...) On it a duo Lol Coxhill-Michel Godard playing the tune from 'Mon
oncle', a film by Jacques Tati. Great!

Jan Luyben


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:51:28 PDT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: berne's no(h)bag tour: UK / dave Douglas

It just occurred to me that I hadn't heard anything about Tim Berne's
medium-large ensemble tour of the UK, only about four or five dates.  It
was called the No(h)bag tour, and featured Evan Parker (!) and Django
Bates, among others.  Anybody catch any of these?  Even if you don't
want to post, could you at least let me know what I missed?

Also, Dave Douglas tapes are wanted!  Did THOUGHTS AROUND MAHFOUZ gig
more than once?

cheers,

scott


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis

At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote:
>>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all
>>previously released material including one Death Cube K song.  It is on
>>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap.
>>
>>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis
>>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label.  Does anyone
>>know anything about this?? Who plays on it????

This has been delayed until September 16.  In addition to the original
tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7),
Pat Thrall, and David Castelan.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis

At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote:
>>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all
>>previously released material including one Death Cube K song.  It is on
>>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap.
>>
>>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis
>>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label.  Does anyone
>>know anything about this?? Who plays on it????

This has been delayed until September 16.  In addition to the original
tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7),
Pat Thrall, and David Castelan.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:32:53 -0700
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills

I didn't quote Miles Davis someone else on this post did.

- ----------
> From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>
> To: Christian Heslop <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: experimental/ skills
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 8:24 AM
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700  "Christian Heslop" wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >     I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do
agree
> > somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to
>
> It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he
> said of most '60s avant garde artists...
>
> Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely
things
> that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him).
>
> This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of
this
> discussion.
>
>     Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:33:15 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: VINYL/CD Sale (Updated 8/18/98) ...

Hi,

I've just added a few new items to my vinyl/CD sale list.
They can be found (along with basic info) at the following
website:

http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/sale.html

If you are browser challenged, I can email you the list.
Just let me know.

New items include, among other things ... ° (Mika Vainio),
Pan(a)sonic, Coil, Scorn, Gastr Del Sol, Tortoise, Oval etc.

Thanks for looking.


- -Patrick
[e-mail]





- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:45:58 -0400
From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Praxis recommendation

I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
anyone have any recommendations?

Marc



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:54:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation

On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Marc Downing wrote:

> I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
> anyone have any recommendations?

The only one that I've heard is the live album with the Invisible Scratch
Picklez (sp?), which I love and recommend highly.

I just picked up their "Metatron" for $3 during lunch, and will listen to
it after this John Coltrane CD is over...

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 17:01:59 -0300
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Min Xiao-Fen

Hey Zornheads!

I've enjoyed a lot Min Xiao-Fen's playing in Filmworks VIII; is there
any other cd you could recommend me to dig in?

Thanks in advance,

Hugo

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:13:22 -0700
From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills

Christian Heslop wrote:

> I also happen to believe that if the
> "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not
> involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you
> didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you
> can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the
> performer can take credit for.

I have to take exception with this. I have played the guitar for over 20
years, and I'll tell you that whether composing or improvising, my
experience has been precisely the opposite of what you describe above.
The most profound and beautiful music is nearly always produced in those
moments when you don't know what's going to come out. Who if not the
performer should take credit for that music--I'm not sure.

> Do people
> seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative
> wonders of the human ear.

No, I'd say that years of practice often go a long away toward opening
the possibilities, either instrumentally, or in terms of the ear. Not
necessarily, of course. There are plenty of well practiced players who
simply recreate what they've practiced when they play, which is quite
useful for classical musicians, but usually pretty uninspiring for
improvisers. I think most musicians who've improvised would say that
they're not completely in control of what comes out of their instrument,
no matter how practiced they are. At least I feel sorry for the bored
egomaniac who would claim otherwise.

- --



[e-mail]
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
(L. Evangelista)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:39:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Michel Godard

Godard is also on Misha Mengelberg's newest disk on hatology.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:00:50 -0400
From: "Vanheumen, Robert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: klezmer theory

hi there

i'm looking for a book to learn more about klezmer, that is to say, a
book with things like scales, chords, typical klezmer patterns etc; just
very dry stuff to practice (mmm)...
now i found dozens of books with completely written out klezmer tunes,
accompanied by chords, but that is not what i want...
i'm just looking for a dry practice book.
can anybody help me with a title?

thanks very much.
robert

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:06:59 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation

At 03:45 PM 8/18/98 -0400, Marc Downing wrote:
>I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
>anyone have any recommendations?

Start with _Transmutation_ on Axiom.   But you may want to wait for the
compilation CD coming out soon on Douglas.





Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:09:19 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation

>I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
>anyone have any recommendations?
>
>Marc

I noticed that Joseph S. Zitt recomends _Transmutations Live_  I would say
start with _Transmutations_  This is easy to find in the rock section filed
under "P"  It's a very funky album w/ Bootsie Collins and Bennie Worral on
board.  Great shreading from Buckethead.  Brain holds it all together.
Bill's production is typically "him".  If you can find _Sacrifist_ used on
CD pick it up.  It's a great recording and is extremely raw.  BTW, Zorn
guests on this one.

Happy listening,

Doug



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:10:34 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Zorn List Digest V2 #434

The MM Scofield-Hunter show should be very good. As for the new MMW album I
think it has a place in their discography. If you like move and shake etc.

Andrew

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:42:37 -0700
From: Trey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Weird Little

[NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from
Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so
if you want to include him in a discussion, please
explicitly include his email address.]


Hey, everybody.

Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John Zorn as
a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not had a
falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came out 3
years after the fact) regret having participated in.

      Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help people
in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands.


    No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there, and
so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and just
go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back pats
for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"...   You know, I've
been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances -
improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those
performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is justified
by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to produce
anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was carried
only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up...  Noble,
but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a musician
who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people out
there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel?

To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off on
the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I like
the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great performances
in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the highest
order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration, he
is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I see
it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely squelched
by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the "completists".
This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in
weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a right
to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a weak
improv record.

Trey




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:58:51 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: SONNY SHARROCK TRIBUTE@KNITTING FACTORY 8/23RE]

Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock



An evening of music "Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock" will be
presented
in the Knitting Factory's Main Space, 74 Leonard Street between Broadway
and
Church
(six blocks below Canal), on Sunday, August 23rd, 1998 from 8:00 p.m. to
midnight.  The concert is a benefit for the Juvenile Diabetes
Foundation.

The community of players with whom Sonny Sharrock broke ground and
carried the
torch, alongside other players who have been greatly inspired by this
innovative
guitarist, will gather together for a passionate and heartfelt musical
tribute.
The evening will feature music that Sonny wrote and recorded over a
thirty year
span.  The list of performers includes Sonny's bandmates Pheeroan
akLaff, Lance
Carter and Abe Speller (drums), Charles Baldwin, David C. Gross, and
Charnett
Moffett (bass), John Stubblefield (saxophone), Ted Daniel (trumpet), and
several
guitarists who have been deeply inspired by his life and music,
including Jef
Lee Johnson, Robert Musso, Elliott Sharp, Tor Snyder, and James Blood
Ulmer.
There will also be tributes by family and friends, special messages from
such
musicians as Roy Ayers, Peter Brotzmann, Ronald Shannon Jackson, and
Herbie
Mann, and rare video footage of Sonny in concert.

Since making his distinctive mark in the early sixties alongside Don
Cherry,
Miles Davis, Pharoah Sanders, Wayne Shorter and others, Sonny has been
an
influence for generations of musicians.  It was Sonny's desire to expand
the
vocabulary of the electric guitar and give it the range, tonality and
textures
that saxophonists such as Albert Ayler and John Coltrane explored
through their
instruments.  Now, more than four years since his death, with his
stature and
influence continuing to grow, musicians are traveling to New York to
offer a
highly charged celebration of his musical innovations and his beautiful
spirit.

"Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock"
The Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard St. betw. Church St. & Broadway
Sunday, August 23rd, 8-midnight
Venue information 212-219-3006 x 417

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:14:18 -0700
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Weird Little

I understand your sentiments exactly-there is a sort of integrity of
purpose that separates some works from others. Anyone is capable of minor
transgressions.Who hasn't horsed around a little.The WLB cd may be
interesting for this fact alone.I don't think I will buy it though, there
are too many other good works out there to ignore the opinion of a
participant.I personally think that it takes a sort of nobility for you not
to attempt to rationalize it at all but perhaps guilt drives you too far to
criticize it.What Cobra sessions that you have participated in would you
recommend?

- ----------
> From: Trey <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Weird Little
> Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:42 AM
>
>
> [NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from
> Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so
> if you want to include him in a discussion, please
> explicitly include his email address.]
>
>
> Hey, everybody.
>
> Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John
Zorn as
> a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not
had a
> falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came
out 3
> years after the fact) regret having participated in.
>
>       Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help
people
> in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands.
>
>
>     No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there,
and
> so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and
just
> go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back
pats
> for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"...   You know,
I've
> been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances
- -
> improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those

> performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is
justified
> by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to
produce
> anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was
carried
> only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up...
Noble,
> but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a
musician
> who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people
out
> there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel?
>
> To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off
on
> the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I
like
> the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great
performances
> in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the
highest
> order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration,
he
> is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I
see
> it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely
squelched
> by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the
"completists".
> This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in

> weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a
right
> to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a
weak
> improv record.
>
> Trey
>
>
>
>
> -

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #443
*******************************


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