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Zorn List Digest        Monday, August 17 1998        Volume 02 : Number 438



In this issue:
-
       one more
       TS on free improv
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli
       Re: Head Of David
       Attention NYC Shoppers
       Trey Spruance
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: your mail
       Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli
       Re:
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: Massacre
       tony conrad
       Upcoming Tzadiks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:46:57 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: one more

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, trey wrote:
>
> you BUY IT, listen to it, and tell me if that's what I'm thinking! Free
> Improv as a concept obviously does NOT suck, and this album is'nt really
> just another bad free improv record. If it were, I'd just say so and
> leave it at that. BUT, it's not really all just improv, AND it sucks the
> green donkey dicks - so theres really no conveinient recourse to the
> "bad improv" arguement. It's just pure, pretentious shit with no brains,
> thought, feeling or value. At least when improv is like that there's
> always the excuse of "searching for a new medium", and I accept that.
> But no such luck here.

=t=

- -----------------------------------------------------------
BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:53:11 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: TS on free improv

this one from february 1998 might bring some light to all of it:


 Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
is just burnt on it!

                   =t=
_______________________________________________________________________

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:07:01 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

> At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being
> cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before.  We acquire
> compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines,
> keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already
> got.  If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves
> to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and
> inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System).
right....i am surprised that there are more people than me on this list
havin this opionion...i didnt care about all the zorn-releases since
angelus novus.....hmmmmm.
> IMHO, JZ is no longer an artist whose every release breaks new ground.
> He's got too much stuff in the vaults and is so prolific that I don't
> even try to keep up with him anymore.  There's too many creative
> musicians for me to become a completist on JZ.
true again...there are so many good records in the world that none of us
will ever have the chance to hear all of them...so why the hell buy all
records that zorn did anything for?
> And really, he's allowed to make a lousy record once in a while.
> Maybe WLB was fun to make, maybe in combination with the artwork it's
> more than the sum of its parts.  Maybe it's just a lousy record.
i bought it some weeks ago and to be honest i listened to the first ten
minutes and since then it hasnt reentered my player...i cant say that it
isnt good after that but it doesnt seem interesting enough to play it
again

BJOERN


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:21:08 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli

"Brad Elsie" <[e-mail]> wrote:

>>Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of.

"Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]> responded:

>He is on the new Ice album _Bad Blood_ ...

Well then, I guess we should just _add_ Eardrum to the
list, and _leave_ Ice in there.  :)

>>1. Slab!
>>2. God
>>3. Ice
>>4. Laika
>>5. Gary Smith
>>6. Mass
  7. Eardrum


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:20:51 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Head Of David

At 05:13 PM 8/14/98 -0500, Joe Weil wrote:

>>I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as
>>Breached Birth.
>>Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in
>>Head of David together?

Michael Howes <[e-mail]> replied:

>Justin appears on "Dustbowl", "The Saveana Mixes", and "White Elephant/
>The Peal Sessions".  I don't know which Head of David records Martin
>appears on..

I'm quite positive that Martin was never in, or appeared as a
guest in HoD.


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:48:03 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Attention NYC Shoppers

Two things that might be of interest to NYC z-listers:

1) re: the Brotzmann Octet/Tentet. Tower (East 4th) has it for
$50--Other Music, across the street has it for $30. (The copies, BTW,
are numbered--I got 168, Tower had some in the 700's; does anyone know
how many were pressed?)

2) Other Music also has, in its glass-case section, a copy of  "The John
Zorn Radio Hour"....for $50. I demurred and expect to 'til I hit a large
football pool or something, but could anyone who owns this provide a
review? Also, if anyone's gotten any of the four new Keiji Haino discs
of PSF, I'd be curious to hear about them.

Picked up a few items I haven't listened to yet including Dave Douglas'
'Charm of a Night Sky', Kevin Drumm's self-titled release and John
Wall's 'Fractuur'. Will let you know. The first disc of the Brotz set
had several thrilling moments.

Guy Klucevsek at Tonic last night: Wonderful, heart-felt, deep melodies
from one of the world's finest musicians. I retain my special affinity
for artists stretching boundaries who, to all appearences, look like
they should be working in an accounting department, who could care less
if other people think they're hip or not. Fashion be damned.

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:20:08 -0400
From: Peter Risser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trey Spruance

I think it's funny he renounces WLB so much, when I thought a number of
moments on SC3's first and a few on the second sound exactly like what he's
renouncing.  LIttle boys with their four-track toys, instead of little boys
with their free-improv toys, I suppose.  But still, the first album is rife
with examples of dorkiness that I can't figure how ever made it to record.

Glass houses and all.

:)

Peter
===
Peter Risser
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:13:54 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
>Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
>"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what
>we've already got"?

Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was
at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that
fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely
controlled boundaries.  If the population really had a collective impulse
to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:02:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: your mail

Maybe then he and the other "free form" diletantes, such as Thurston
Moore should leave the music to those who know it and *want* to play it
- -- the names Coleman, Taylor, E. Parker, W. Parker, Lowe, Guy, Ware,
Gayle, Bailey, Oxley, Brotzmann come immediately to mind.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]




On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, BJOERN wrote:

> one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:39 -0800
>
>  Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
> FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
> not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
> with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
> course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
> is just burnt on it!
>
>                    =t=
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> BJOERN
> www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
>
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:04:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Weil <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli

Yeah,
I was right and wrong on the Ice. The latest Ice was reviewed in
the Wire and I read his name and associated it with the earlier
releases which he does not play on. Sorry for the inaccuracy.
BTW, has anyone seen the latest Ice, Bad Blood, in the stores?
CDEurope has it for 36US$, too much.

As far as Slab!. It has been awhile since I have heard their stuff.
I would say that you were not missing anything special if you did
not listen to them. I have one 12" (Sanity Allergy) and a CD comp.
(Ship of Fools) which has several songs from each LP they put out.
For the most part, I would describe Slab! as hard rock band with
a funky edge. They don`t get as heavy as GOD but they do have their
moments, _Swithchback Ride_.  I have never read anything about them
in any magazine except for musicians mentioning that they have some
Slab! in their collection, next to Maddona. I think that there were
several members of Slab! who migrated with Lou C. to God but as
flimsy as my mind is with musical arcana I will sift through my
collection before I write any names down.


thanks
jw


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:44:46 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:

I'd be honestly interested in what Spruance has tired of about Free
Improv. Is it the act of performance without an explicit score, or
the cliches that frequently happen in performances, or the minimal
hype surrounding it? I wonder what parameters would need to be
fulfilled in a free improvisation for Spruance to find it worthwhile.

(Might we invite him to this list to discuss it openly, since people are
quoting him and he has net.access?)

BJOERN wrote:
>
> one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:39 -0800
>
>  Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
> FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
> not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
> with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
> course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
> is just burnt on it!

- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:58:48 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

ScottRussell wrote:

> Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguish
> between a genuine example of pioneering experimental music and the
> merely routine. One could also argue about the vailidity of qualitative
> expressions like 'good' and 'outstanding'.

What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording?
Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches
organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the
instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back
to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others,
but it's hard to determine what those factors are.

There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who
hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite
niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then)
I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an
audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how
his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke.
*Everyone* who said anything admitted to strongly disliking what they
had just endured, yet no one wanted to be the first to admit not liking
this Advanced Serious piece of High Art.

(BTW, this isn't an off-the-cuff opinion: I have the boxed set and
Slapping Pythagorus, have read a lot about his work, and got to speak
to him for a while before the concert. He certainly has an interesting
story to tell about his adventures some 30 years ago, but his recordings
and performances contradict the musical points he seems to want to be
making in his music.)

Still, there is some valid and possibly wonderful music to be made from
aspect of what he did. A lot of people have taken off from there and run
in good directions.

Hm... I didn't intend for this to turn into a rant...

- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 02:00:53 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: weird little boy

> At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
> >Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
> >"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.]
> like what
> >we've already got"?
>
> Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was
> at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that
> fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely
> controlled boundaries.

Hmm... here you seem to equate fashion with mainstream culture, while in
your original post you argued that only buying John Zorn records would make
one a slave to fashion.  What kind of fashion are we talking about?

> If the population really had a collective impulse
> to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.

I think it's equally valid to see it the other way around:  when we want to
seek out something new (and I didn't mean to suggest that the "masses" as a
whole rise up to embrace the new David Bowie record), the boundaries of
what most of us are able to find -- as well as the criteria by which we
judge what we find -- are defined by commercial radio.

I just don't see the big difference between listening to commercial radio
to find out about the new David Bowie record and reading Zorn's Top 10 to
find out about, umm, serialist film music of Kazakhstan....


Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:37:43 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:13:54 -0400  "Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
>
> At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
> >Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
> >"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what
> >we've already got"?
>
> Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was
> at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that
> fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely
> controlled boundaries.  If the population really had a collective impulse
> to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.

There is a simpler explanation to that: people at large might have more
important things to do in their life than looking for the last limited
edition of Merzbow.

Which means that yes, the mainstream media are mainstream because they have
to hit an audience for which experimental music is not at the top of their
interest. Is it really so strange?

    Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:11:01 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Massacre

On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:14:22 PDT  "Silent Watcher" wrote:
>
> Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into
> Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred
> Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album.  This would be great news - if
> it's true. Anyone know?

It is a little bit strange because the upcoming Massacre record is with
Charles Hayward, not Ted Epstein.

Does it mean that the band is really back and will tour?

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:21:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: tony conrad

On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote:

> There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
> recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
> excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who
> hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite
> niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then)
> I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an
> audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how
> his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke.

certainly a valid opinion as it was an extremely tautological experience,
but i saw the same show @ the black cat and i was mesmerized by the
drone.
the whole performance was conrad on violin and a woman named alex on cello
scraping out just intonation at volume 11, backlit behind a scrim.
i liked the fact that this music challenged people.  i liked the fact
that people were leaving early.  i wasn't hoping for a passive
experience.
the volume of the music made it physically taxing, yet i wouldn't have
missed a second.  once i acclimated myself to the extrememly narrow tonal
range i heard a great deal of variation in the movements.  they have the
pure sound.
this of course has nothing to do with john zorn...

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:23:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Upcoming Tzadiks

After skipping a month for the first time in recent memory, Tzadik makes
up for lost time on September 15th (in the US) with the following
releases :

Naftule's Dream - Smash/Clap
Great Jewish Music : Marc Bolan
John Zorn - Aporias
John Zorn - Bribe
John Zorn - Ganryu Island

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

  GROOVE
- ----------
One Nation



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #438
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