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Zorn List Digest        Monday, August 17 1998        Volume 02 : Number 439



In this issue:
-
       Re: tony conrad
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: weird little boy
       tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
       Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
       Re: tony conrad
       RE: Upcoming Tzadiks
       A question
       Antenna Radio
       Re: Upcoming Tzadiks
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: Massacre

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:41:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Brent Burton wrote:

> the whole performance was conrad on violin and a woman named alex on cello
> scraping out just intonation at volume 11, backlit behind a scrim.

One problem that I had with the performance (as with Conrad's recordings)
was that the just intonation was hampered by the timbres used. The
scratchiness of the sounds and chaotic articulations created a lot of
off-tone noise, which made the intonations' effects much less effective.

> i liked the fact that this music challenged people.  i liked the fact
> that people were leaving early.  i wasn't hoping for a passive
> experience.

I don't see people leaving as necessarily a good thing. If someone had
gotten on stage and played a Hanson record over and over, many people
might have left too, yet that doesn't make listening to Hanson any more or
less of an effective or valuable musical experience.

> the volume of the music made it physically taxing, yet i wouldn't have
> missed a second.  once i acclimated myself to the extrememly narrow tonal
> range i heard a great deal of variation in the movements.  they have the
> pure sound.

What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not
convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be
getting these differences other than by accident. There was one
captivating moment, about 2/3 of the way in, when difference tones
suddenly sprang out for about 30 seconds. But then they disappeared again
in such a way that made me question whether they were intentionally
produced. (Not that chance is necessarily a bad thing, but from what I
understand from his writings and with talking to him before the show, it
seems to be outside his aesthetic.)

> this of course has nothing to do with john zorn...

This of course is quite relevant to John Zorn. This entire discussion
could as easily be taking place about performances of Leng T'che. Issues
of the presentaation and reception of new music are at the core of much
that we discuss here, with Zorn as a usul focus.

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:04:58 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

>>>>> "Jim" == jkan  <[e-mail]> writes:

    Jim> Hmm... here you seem to equate fashion with mainstream
    Jim> culture, while in your original post you argued that only
    Jim> buying John Zorn records would make one a slave to fashion.
    Jim> What kind of fashion are we talking about?

Fashion means letting someone else dictate your choices, whether it's
mainstream media, the so-called alternative press, or any other
source.  It's a fine line, perhaps, but an extreme example might be
someone who bought every record JZ made because JZ is so cool, but
doesn't listen to any of the surrounding context (free jazz, thrash,
contemporary classical, musique concrete, etc.) because they are
complete unknowns.

    >> If the population really had a collective impulse to seek out
    >> something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.

    Jim> I think it's equally valid to see it the other way around:
    Jim> when we want to seek out something new (and I didn't mean to
    Jim> suggest that the "masses" as a whole rise up to embrace the
    Jim> new David Bowie record), the boundaries of what most of us
    Jim> are able to find -- as well as the criteria by which we judge
    Jim> what we find -- are defined by commercial radio.

Maybe it's personal then.  There was a long period in my life where I
never listened to commercial radio and still don't recognize many
'hit' songs from that period.

    Jim> I just don't see the big difference between listening to
    Jim> commercial radio to find out about the new David Bowie record
    Jim> and reading Zorn's Top 10 to find out about, umm, serialist
    Jim> film music of Kazakhstan....

I see a huge difference, between finding a printed list of interesting
music, from a source we respect, where we can contemplate it at our
leisure, and use of whatever music is available to keep us listening
from one advertisement to the next.


- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:01:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

That's the point I've been trying to make about the blind acceptance of
*anyone's* work, even JZ's. Just because an artist decides something is a
piece of high art and presents it as such, doesn't mean that we have to
accept and/or like it.

Saying that *every* piece of work created by so-and-so is a masterpiece
or deserving of our foreshortened time does a disservice to both that
person and others who create equally valid work.

That said most of us like many things which are deemed horrible etc. by
others. But if we don't hold to some critical standards we become as
ignorent and guilty of fanaticism as any so-called pop music fan.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]





On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote:

>
> Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguis>
> What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording?
> Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches
> organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the
> instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back
> to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others,
> but it's hard to determine what those factors are.
>
> There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
> recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
> excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who
> hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite
> niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then)
> I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an
> audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how
> his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke.
> *Everyone* who said anything admitted to strongly disliking what they
> had just endured, yet no one wanted to be the first to admit not liking
> this Advanced Serious piece of High Art.
>
> (BTW, this isn't an off-the-cuff opinion: I have the boxed set and
> Slapping Pythagorus, have read a lot about his work, and got to speak
> to him for a while before the concert. He certainly has an interesting
> story to tell about his adventures some 30 years ago, but his recordings
> and performances contradict the musical points he seems to want to be
> making in his music.)
>
> Still, there is some valid and possibly wonderful music to be made from
> aspect of what he did. A lot of people have taken off from there and run
> in good directions.
>
> Hm... I didn't intend for this to turn into a rant...
>
> --
> ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
> |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
> ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
> |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:02:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb

>There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
>recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
>excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC.

This seems, to me, a strange choice for ENC.  I've seen him twice now,
including the the same tour you just did (I assume), and both pieces have
been nothing short of magnificent (ok, the last week's was 10minutes LONG
of magnificent, but that's quibling).  Admitedly, harsh volumous drone
isn't a ubiquitous taste, but I know a number of people who LOVED his
shows--including non-music lover friends I've dragged along who have since
made efforts on their own to see him.  Many more like and listen to
_Slapping Pythagoros_ and _Four Violins_.  I'm not sure how else to defend
him, cause I don't want to make an appeal to innovation, authority ect,
cause my love of his music has nothing to do with those things.  Simply,
his harmonics sound like the mornful end of the universe, and you can't get
much more intense than that.  _Four Violins_ is the perfect tone world; I
don't play it much because it causes so much tension, but when I do I feel
TC's distilled sonic beauty to it's simplest, purest form.  The rest of
_Early Minimalism_ isn't as impressive to me because the violin sounds more
like a tone generator than a actual instrument.

In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively
to "experimental music," I have two comments.  1)The myth (meaning myth,
not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to
become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this
makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately
grasp.  This is good, I think.  Furthermore, if an artwork is truely
experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point.  The
point is to take what you can from it, 'cause on the whole, it's likely
bound to fail.  2)  In general comming up with opinions that label art
"good" and "crap" is, well, stupid.  It's fun for conversation, but I pitty
someone who looks at things that way.  Vote with your feet, listen to what
you feel compeled to listen again to.

matt


- ------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:21:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Matthew Colonnese wrote:

> his harmonics sound like the mornful end of the universe, and you can't get
> much more intense than that.  _Four Violins_ is the perfect tone world; I
> don't play it much because it causes so much tension, but when I do I feel
> TC's distilled sonic beauty to it's simplest, purest form.  The rest of
> _Early Minimalism_ isn't as impressive to me because the violin sounds more
> like a tone generator than a actual instrument.

Hmm... I don't know what the mournful end of the universe would sound
like, so I can't speak to whether another sound approximates it.

I do see that we have reversed reactions to _Four Violins_ vs. the rest of
_Early Minimalism_. In the later works, it's slightly easier to hear
what's going on. His point, as he says repeatedly, is overtone
interactions within long durations. This is easier to perceive in the less
sloppy environment.

Although La Monte Young appears to be being somewhat of a putz about all
of this (though I'd like to get a third opinion on the whole thing -- I
wonder if that John Cale autobiography will ever be published), I do
prefer his recordings (except for that blues band thing) and his
installations, since they get to the heart of the sound more effectively.

> In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively
> to "experimental music," I have two comments.  1)The myth (meaning myth,
> not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to
> become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this
> makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately
> grasp.  This is good, I think.

Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it
possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator
while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly.

> Furthermore, if an artwork is truely
> experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point.  The
> point is to take what you can from it, 'cause on the whole, it's likely
> bound to fail.

As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to
expect at least a modicum of effectiveness.

> 2)  In general comming up with opinions that label art
> "good" and "crap" is, well, stupid.  It's fun for conversation, but I pitty
> someone who looks at things that way.  Vote with your feet, listen to what
> you feel compeled to listen again to.

To say just "good" or "crap" is less than useful. Meaningful discussion of
the content and goals of a performance, how well they achieve them, and
how the audience responds is en essential part of communication within a
musical community.

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:23:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:

> One problem that I had with the performance (as with Conrad's recordings)
> was that the just intonation was hampered by the timbres used. The
> scratchiness of the sounds and chaotic articulations created a lot of
> off-tone noise, which made the intonations' effects much less effective.

well, i would argue that you're looking for something in conrad's music
that he isn't trying to achieve.  if you listen to "outside the dream
syndicate" or even conrad's influence on john cale's playing with the
velvet underground, i think that you'll see a singleminded consistency.
i think conrad's doing exactly what he wants to do and he's been doing it
for decades.
maybe check out phill niblock for less atonal experimentation...

> What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not
> convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be
> getting these differences other than by accident.

well, i was standing where i could see behind the scrim and i would have
to disagree.  the music was indeteminate in many respects, but conrad's
actions and choices betrayed no confusion that i could see.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:27:00 -0500
From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Upcoming Tzadiks

    > John Zorn - Bribe
    Anybody know what this is?


> -

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:14:54 -0800
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: A question

Hi,

I have a question re: Fred Frith's Pacifica.  I've got the disc & like the
piece pretty well, but I've seen several references, both on the disc &
elsewhere to the length of the piece as "over an hour."  The disc I have is
only about 45 minutes long.  The work seems complete, at least as it's
described in the notes.  Does anybody have an idea what's up here?  Was the
piece as performed an hour-long and then the score was cut for recording or
what.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:14:54 -0800
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antenna Radio

While there are probably shows on Antenna that are relevant to the
interests of folks on this list in most weeks, I think this week that's
particularly the case.

My show, Mappings, presents a range of interactive computer pieces,
including compositions and/or performances by Martin Bartlett, Chris Brown,
George Lewis, Ikue Mori, & Evan Parker.

Phil's show, Intoxication Hour, focuses on recent British improv.

Both available, with 5 or 6 other weekly shows, at
<http://www.antennaradio.com/>

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:35:52 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Upcoming Tzadiks

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:27:00 -0500  "Marks, Andy" wrote:
>
>
>
>     > John Zorn - Bribe
>     Anybody know what this is?

It is an unreleased 1986 composition.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:44:16 -0400
From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

>
>    Jim> I just don't see the big difference between listening to
>    Jim> commercial radio to find out about the new David Bowie record
>    Jim> and reading Zorn's Top 10 to find out about, umm, serialist
>    Jim> film music of Kazakhstan....
>
>I see a huge difference, between finding a printed list of interesting
>music, from a source we respect, where we can contemplate it at our
>leisure, and use of whatever music is available to keep us listening
>from one advertisement to the next.


Ahhh, but isn't a "source we respect" different from person to person?
Whether it's option Magazine, Wire, a JZ top ten, Marilyn Manson's Top Ten,
MTV's website, a stray article in Billboard, something from your local
paper, an indie 'zine?  Just because one finds/discovers an artist through,
say Rolling Stone, it doesn't mean that that person is a slave to the media
conglomerate that is Rolling Stone, or shares Rolling Stone's viewpoint.
It also doesn't make the artist any more or less relevant, no matter the
style or the scene.  So it took a little more work to find music via the JZ
top ten than the average pop fan (a term which is used a little too
derisively around here IMHO.  Remember, without the context of pop there is
no out-there, no avant garde, or whatever).  If you continue to gleem
recommendations from JZ's top ten, then the names have changed, but you do
the same as that pop fan who scans Rolling Stone.


A Fan of All Sorts of Music,

Chris



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:35:04 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Massacre

> Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into
> Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred
> Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album.  This would be great news - if
> it's true. Anyone know?

 I don't know anything about this, but I'd love to see them perform again,
 though I guess it won't be the same without Fred Maher. I always loved his
 drumming -- too bad he's turned away from "our" musicians. (The same, by the
 way, applies to Michael Beinhorn. I like his style, and I'd love to see him
 perform in a more adventurous set again.)

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #439
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