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1998-08-15
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #437
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Sunday, August 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 437
In this issue:
-
Re: weird little boy
RE: weird little boy
Re: weird little boy
Re: weird little boy
Re: New MMW
Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Ice/Lou Ciccotelli
Experimenta return to the war
Re: weird little boy
Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Re: seeking info for Myra Melford discography
Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Re: weird little boy
Massacre
RE: weird little boy
trey's mail
[none]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:56:33 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:50:01 +0100 ScottRussell wrote:
>
> Idefinitely agree with Patrice here.
>
> > I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has
> > with
> > the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music.
> >
> > But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some
> > improv/noise
> > is great or crap?
> >
> I think this is true of any kind of abstract art. It doesn't
> rely on established benchmarks so we only have gut feelings and
> intuition to discern that what we're hearing or seeing is of some value
> and not just some kind of hoax.
Except that the trend these days among inovative music fans is to rank
everything from "good" to "outstanding". Does it really means that every
record out is really so good or simply that by pushing the abstraction so
far, we are left with utter confusion where the reputation of the artist
(cult) and the literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation) make
the main difference between an OK and a good product?
Patrice (who is amazed at how indulgent listeners of "innovative"
music have became ;-).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:33:16 +0100
From: ScottRussell <ScottRussell@scottishmedia.com>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
> Except that the trend these days among inovative music fans is to rank
>
> everything from "good" to "outstanding".
>
Very true.
> Does it really means that every
> record out is really so good or simply that by pushing the abstraction
> so
> far, we are left with utter confusion where the reputation of the
> artist
> (cult) and the literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation)
> make
> the main difference between an OK and a good product?
>
Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguish
between a genuine example of pioneering experimental music and the
merely routine. One could also argue about the vailidity of qualitative
expressions like 'good' and 'outstanding'.
I think we are in the middle of a fad and it's going to take a while
until the dust settles, so we can actually see what has value. Don't get
me wrong, I think now is absolutely the best time to be a music lover,
ever! There is so much available and so much great stuff that wasn't
available even a few years ago. But along with this comes the less
attractive things like the persuasion by intimidation Patrice mentions
plus the wretchedness of fashion (John Fahey can apparently do no wrong
now even though he has been turning out astonishing work for 30 years)
and let's not forget the critics who use certain artists for their own
agendas.
Scott
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:38:26 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:57:28 +0100 ScottRussell wrote:
>
> > That's exactly what I felt
> > with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack
> > Smith.
> > My most embarrasssing record buy in ages.
> >
> Can you give me some idea what this is like? I've seen it about but
> haven't had the nerve to get it. I just got a copy of Smith's collected
> writings, Meet Me at the Bottom of the Pool.
I am only judging from a music point of view (hey! the record is advertized
as featuring John Cale, Tony Conrad, etc). A sloppy reading of texts with
some sounds in the background. The sound is abominable, but this has never
prevented me from appreciating a record... What is even worse, for me, is
that I find the voice of Jack Smith unbearable... Which means that I can't
even appreciate the voice as an instrument (give me Bryon Gysin everyday!!!).
There is still a possibility that the texts are outstanding, and they would
have to be really exceptional to compensate for the mediocrity (to say the
least) of the music and interpretation.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:48:01 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <cdeupree@interagp.com>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
>>>>> "Patrice" == Patrice L Roussel <proussel@ichips.intel.com> writes:
Patrice> Except that the trend these days among innovative music
Patrice> fans is to rank everything from "good" to
Patrice> "outstanding". Does it really means that every record out
Patrice> is really so good or simply that by pushing the
Patrice> abstraction so far, we are left with utter confusion
Patrice> where the reputation of the artist (cult) and the
Patrice> literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation)
Patrice> make the main difference between an OK and a good
Patrice> product?
At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being
cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before. We acquire
compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines,
keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already
got. If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves
to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and
inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System).
IMHO, JZ is no longer an artist whose every release breaks new ground.
He's got too much stuff in the vaults and is so prolific that I don't
even try to keep up with him anymore. There's too many creative
musicians for me to become a completist on JZ. Part of the
frustration I expressed this past week over Filmworks III is that
these sketches have a much shorter shelf life than his major works
(leave aside for the moment what those might be).
And really, he's allowed to make a lousy record once in a while.
Maybe WLB was fun to make, maybe in combination with the artwork it's
more than the sum of its parts. Maybe it's just a lousy record.
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:51:13 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <hewins@synsolutions.com>
Subject: Re: New MMW
Make that DJ Logic instad of DJ Olive...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:51:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Brad Elsie wrote:
> Kevin, Justin and Dave are members of God. CDs are on Big Cat and
> Virgin.
don't forget the releases on
Situation Two ("Breach Birth"),
Permis de Construire ("Loco")
and Sentrax ("Consumed").
as far as i know, Justin Broadrick
was not a central member of
GOD up until release of
"Anatomy of Addiction". rather,
it's a project between Kevin Martin,
Dave Cochrane, Lou Ciccotelli
and Tim Hodgkinson. you'll notice
Broadrick isn't even present for
"Breach Birth", "Loco" or "Consumed"
but he may have produced
"Breach Birth".
for more information, check out
Crumbling Flesh
www.albany.edu/~te0011/godflesh.html
Avalanche
www.avalanche.demon.co.uk
(Justin Broadrick's official website)
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:13:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Weil <weilj@ecn.purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as
Breached Birth.
Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in
Head of David together?
jw
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:14:24 -0400
From: "Jason J. Tar" <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Ice/Lou Ciccotelli
At 02:53 PM 8/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:40:58 PDT
>From: "Brad Elsie" <b__elsie@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
>Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of.
He is on the new Ice album _Bad Blood_, along with Kevin Martin, Justin
Broadrick, Dave Cochrane, Scott Harding and guests (including DJ Vadim,
Sensational, A-Cyde, Sebestian Laws, Toastie Taylor, Blixa Bargeld, El-P,
and Priest). [If most of those guest names are unawares to you, they are
rappers from the likes of New Kingdom, Company Flow, Anti-Pop Collective,
Jungle Brothers, and New Flesh 4 Old.]
- ---
Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar
W. W. J. D?
(What would Jason Do?)
http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
ICQ@13792120
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:48:19 -0300
From: "Claudio Koremblit" <experimenta@datamarkets.com.ar>
Subject: Experimenta return to the war
Tomorrow saturday 15 will be the opening of Experimenta 98 in
Buenos Aires, Argentina, with Butch Morris and Experimenta=20
Ensemble making the Conduction # 104.
After many troubles with the City of Buenos Aires that=20
tried to cancell the series in may for problems with
budget, Experimenta got the conditions for make
possible the second year of monthly performances
with artists from all over the world.=20
Here the programation:
Programaci=F3n Experimenta 98,=20
Teatros Sarmiento (agosto) y Regio (septiembre a diciembre):
15 de agosto: BUTCH MORRIS (USA) y Ensamble Experimenta
CASUAL (Hernan Vives, Lucio Capece y Zelmar Sarin) (Argentina) /=20
Adriana de los Santos (Argentina)
12 de Septiembre: LEE RANALDO & WILLIAM HOOKER (USA) y la cineasta LEAH
SINGER / Capricornio (Bl=E9fari-Aldana) (Argentina) /=20
Wenchi Lazo/ Gregorio Kazaroff (Argentina)
16 y 17 de Octubre:=20
BOB OSTERTAG /=20
EUGENE CHADBOURNE /=20
MARK DRESSER (USA) /=20
Maia Monaco & Barbara Togander (Argentina)
PERCEUM (Uruguay)/=20
Tato Taborda (Brasil) /=20
Joaquin Orellana (Guatemala)/=20
FRICS (Argentina)
12 y 13 de Diciembre: JOHN ZORN y Masada (USA)/=20
GUY KLUCEVSEK (USA) /=20
MARCELO PERALTA (Argentina)
Any information: experimenta@datamarkets.com.ar
www.datamarkets.com.ar/experimenta
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:12:28 -0400
From: jkan@javanet.com
Subject: Re: weird little boy
> At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being
> cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before. We acquire
> compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines,
> keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already
> got. If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves
> to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and
> inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System).
Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what
we've already got"?
Jim
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 07:34:55 -0400
From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
>>This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
>>as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
>>1. Slab!
>>2. God
>>3. Ice
>>4. Laika
>>5. Gary Smith
>>6. Mass
>>Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under
>>the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except
>>maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure.
If you mean full-length when you say "last one" ... he is
on that, "Sounds Of The Satellites".
"Brad Elsie" <b__elsie@hotmail.com> replied:
>Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. John Jobaggy
>was the percussionist in Ice, performing with Kevin Martin, Justin
>Broadrick, Dave Cochrane (Sweet Tooth, Head Of David)and Alex Buess
>(16/17). "Under The Skin" is on Pathological and "Quarantine" is on
>Carcrashh.
I was just about to say this ... a little late I guess. :)
There is also the new Ice, "Bad Blood", and the one (so far)
promo remix 12", both on Morpheus.
You can replace Ice w/ Eardrum in the above list. This may even be Lou's
own project, but I'm not sure. I believe they have 2 12"s out (perhaps
other things?), but I don't own them. One is called "First Mutations"
and is on Soul Static Sound (may be o/p), and the other has "Circular"
(?) in the title (not sure on the label).
- -Patrick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:13:34 -0400
From: Alan Lankin <lankina@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: seeking info for Myra Melford discography
Thanks to those who've responded with information about my Myra Melford
discography. Updated version 1.4.5 is now posted at
http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html.
Alan.
>
> I've recently compiled a discography on jazz pianist Myra Melford and am
> looking for any items I've missed.
>
> I'm especially interested in details of her Nisus tapes.
>
> She performed on Zorn's "Cobra Live."
>
> See http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html.
>
- --
Alan Lankin
lankina@worldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~lankina/jazz
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:05:05 -0700
From: Michael Howes <mhowes@best.com>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
At 05:13 PM 8/14/98 -0500, Joe Weil wrote:
>I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as
>Breached Birth.
>Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in
>Head of David together?
Justin appears on "Dustbowl", "The Saveana Mixes", and "White Elephant/The
Peal Sessions".
I don't know which Head of David records Martin appears on..
mike
mhowes@best.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:56:50 PDT
From: "Jeff Schuth" <jschuth@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
>Fr
>
>I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was
varied.
>First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started
ditching the
>album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The
album is
>good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think
that
>part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think
that the
>album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when
listening
>to the music to know what the music is about. It had some
disappointments -
>I was expecting something completely different from that set of
musicians,
>and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr.
>Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their
>disappointment towards what they expected.
>
>Anyway, you've seen how Mr. Bungle have changed from the self-titled to
>Disco Volante, perhaps their next album will be a disappointment also,
while
>Spruance might think of it as their master-piece. You can never know.
>Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced
to do
>the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could have
>said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the album,
and
>THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one
should
>buy it. I wonder it Trey is one of those anti-Zorn-ists working
>infiltrated...
>
>Felix
>jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt
>
>
>These are some good points Felix. The one thing that upsets me, is
that Trey insists for us that we are not interested in hearing this
album. For him it might not be a big deal to have a noisy (and perhaps
worthless) jam session with the likes of Mike Patton, John Zorn, and
William Winant, but personally I'll never come close to hearing anything
like this. These are some of my favorite musicians, and even if its a
very spontanious album, and yes, perhaps even a joke, I don't regret
purchasing this one.
>
>-
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:14:22 PDT
From: "Silent Watcher" <silent_watcher@hotmail.com>
Subject: Massacre
Hello all,
I was hoping that someone on the list could either confirm or deny this
one :
Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into
Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred
Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album. This would be great news - if
it's true. Anyone know?
DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:29:33 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
> I rather got the impression Zorn released it but I may be wrong.
thats what it was like
> Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to
> be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of
> 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but
> are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels
> this way about WLB.
thats exactly what he thinks.....i'll try to find his mail he send to me
and will forward it to the list as soon as i find it
BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:42:36 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: trey's mail
this was sent to me from trey spruance in february:
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 03:39:19 -0800
> what is that WEIRD LITTLE BOY project like that
> everybody is talking about..can it be compared to anything else i could
> know??
No. Quite frankly it SUCKS! It started out as a good idea and then just
degenerated into a stupid party of moronic done-before's. 1 or 2 OK
moments, but THATS IT!! Buy it if you want to laugh at highbrow
incompetence!!!! I hate it...
Ok, bye bye
Trey
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:44:42 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: [none]
one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that:
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:39 -0800
Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
is just burnt on it!
=t=
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #437
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