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Zorn List Digest        Friday, August 14 1998        Volume 02 : Number 436



In this issue:
-
       Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
       Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
       re: weird little boy
       Re: Zappa lyrics
       zorn related films
       Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
       Re: Two cents on Zappa
       Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
       Re: weird little boy
       Re: weird little boy
       RE: weird little boy
       Re: weird little boy
       RE: weird little boy
       RE: weird little boy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:56:23 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
> trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Gary Smith on a power trio?

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:06:38 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli

<<On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
> trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Gary Smith on a power trio?

    Patrice.>>

from the Forced Exposure web site:

Gary Smith-Stereo (Chronoscope)-Studio trio album led by this UK improvising
guitarist. A much expanded sound compared to his previous albums on Impetus
(solo) and Ecstatic Peace! (duo with John Stevens); this is loud, aggressive
instrumental trio action, at times in an almost Caspar Brotzmann-like mold,
with Dave Sturt (bass) & Lou Ciccotelli (drums).

and Gary Smith-Mass (Paratactile)-Debut release by this new UK power trio, led
by guitarist Gary Smith (previous releases on Ecstatic Peace, Chronoscope &
Impetus. "...the earthquaking, sky-kissing beauty of Mass music, a place where
the
dissonant country blues of Son House and Charlie Patton meet the rattled black
space of early electronic composition and the scorched earth improvisations of
Fushitsusha and Tony Williams' Lifetime." David Keenan/The Wire.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:30:06 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: weird little boy

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:30:12 PDT, "Scott Handley" wrote:
> Not that any of this matters at ALL, but I learned about Iancu
> Dumitrescu on the Secret Chiefs Trio's Web of Mimicry website.
> Insofar as perpetual outrage can be stylistic, the anti-Zorn, anti-
> Downtown invective on that site sure sounded like the alt.noise post.
> Is it a "Chief"?  Is it Trey Spruance?  Hmmm...

   DejaNews brings up five posts by "mimicry@*," three of which are
from [e-mail] and the balance from [e-mail]
(the address given at Spruance's webpage).  He seems bitter about
Zorn, and I quote: (from http://www.humboldt1.com/~mimicry, verbatim,
wherein he reviews "Angelus Novus")
- -----------
The other pieces on the CD are also a noticeable cut above quality-wise
from what we have all come to expect from this Tycoon of the Avant-
Garde. It's reassuring that amid the and very understandable complaints
of Zorn's "Overly Influential" presence in modern music, he has managed
to prove (to me at least) with this CD that he is well deserving of
some high praise. Besides, at this point I doubt that very many
Zornophile's, considering their average mentality, would note the
difference in quality between this CD and, say, Weird Little Boy.
So hey, who said Zorn couldn't spring a GREAT album on his "buy
everything" contingent now and then?
- -----------

   He goes on to say "Perhaps the "niche" we are attempting to reach
is the small but ever-growing number of people who have grown
disillusioned with the whole Zorn/Downtown scene for it's lack of
worthwhile recordings."  Obviously he has mixed feelings.  I am
finding more anti-"downtown" talk out there nowadays (it seems like
Walter Horn reviews "downtown" CDs for Cadence just so he can insult
them), but I'm not sure if it's mostly from conservative jazz fans
or disillusioned former-"downtown" fans.

   I think his comments regarding the poor quality of "WLB" are
funny, considering I just finished waiting for the newest Secret
Chiefs 3 album to end--maybe Zorn and those nasty "downtown"
people aren't the problem with "WLB."  If overdubbed guitars
(and guitar-related instruments) cavorting aimlessly with drums
in a field of juvenile tape manipulations while pretending to be
Sun City Girls sounds appealing, "Hurqalya" by Secret Chiefs 3
might be for you.


- -- Charles


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa lyrics

When I first heard Zappa in 1966 and saw him in 1967 I figured at last=20
here was someone who was able to bring together all the strands of=20
instrumental virtuosity of jazz, the power of rock and social commentary=20
and serve it up in a package everyone would "get".

I saw the early versions of the Mothers and felt things still worked up to=
=20
and including "Hot Rats". After that live and on disc Zappa turned into a=
=20
parody of himself lyrically, relying on the sort of pee pee jokes that=20
would amuse the teenage crowd.

However I still think that "Freak Out", "Absolutely Free" and "We're Only=
=20
In It For the Money" had memorable, satiric and, dare I say, important=20
lyrics for the time. You have to remember that FZ was mocking the mass=20
passivity of hippies and others *before* most people even knew who=20
hippies were.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]


On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

>
=94: I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to
> tune out (with a few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I a=
m
> really incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as I=
=92m
> concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school tha=
t
> thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every social barb i=
n his
> lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny. If that was his
> intention...I=92d imagine he could have accomplished much the same thing =
in the
> space of one album.=20

>=20
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:28:44 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn related films

hi. has anyone either seen any of these films or have a copy of any of these
films. thanks
jason

"RISING TONE CROSS"- jazz film by Ebba Jahn
119 mins. English & German w/ subtitles

"OSAKA BONDAGE"- Henry Hills
Music by Naked City
available through Film Makers Coop.

"MONEY"- Henry Hills 16mm film available on VHS tape

"STEP ACROSS THE BORDER"- Nicolas Humber & Werner Penzel

"ART OF MEMORY"- Johanna Heer. German Director

"LE 2EME JOUR"- Robert Cahn. 9mins
made for zorn's "hommage a godard" music

"THE ELEGANT SPANKING"- Maria Beatty & Rosemary Delain
music by john zorn

"CYNICAL HYSTERIE HOUR"-japanese cartoons
music by john zorn


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:40:58 PDT
From: "Brad Elsie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli

>From [e-mail] Thu Aug 13 22:02:10 1998
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>    Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST)
>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST)
>From: Joe Weil <[e-mail]>
>Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>
>This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
>as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
>1. Slab!
>2. God
>3. Ice
>4. Laika
>5. Gary Smith
>6. Mass
>
>Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under
>the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except
>maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure. 5 and 6 can be acquired
>through Forced Exposure, as stated earlier.
>
Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. John Jobaggy
was the percussionist in Ice, performing with Kevin Martin, Justin
Broadrick, Dave Cochrane (Sweet Tooth, Head Of David)and Alex Buess
(16/17). "Under The Skin" is on Pathological and "Quarantine" is on
Carcrashh.

Kevin, Justin and Dave are members of God. CDs are on Big Cat and
Virgin. Zorn appears on "Possession" on 3 tracks. God's "Appeal To Human
Greed" remix CD is great. It features remixes by Bill Laswell and Kevin
Shields of My Bloody Valentine.

>Any advice on how to get the Ethiopiques vol 1-4 on Buda Musique?
>thanks
>jw
>
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:37:06 -0400
From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Two cents on Zappa

>>>>> "Brian" == brian olewnick <[e-mail]> writes:

    Brian>      Good points, though again I'd differentiate, at least
    Brian> a bit, between pre and post-1971.

In addition to 'only money', I also remember fondly the lyrics to
Trouble Every Day from Freak Out (FZ's comments on the Watts Riots)
and the satire on Absolutely Free.  My wife (originally from the boot
hill of Missouri -- still a conservative religious backwater in the
1960s) and I were reminiscing a while back about what we listened to
as early teens.  Her jaw dropped at Absolutely Free and made the
comment that they would have burned that record in Missouri.  While
these are the same subjects and potty humor that FZ continued to
inject, the later lyrics are simply crude and don't contain the satire
that characterized the first three Mothers albums.

- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:25:22 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli

At 7:56 AM 8/14/98, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
>> trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
>            ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Gary Smith on a power trio?
>
>        Patrice.

There was a cut by Mass on a Wire magazine compilation from a few months
ago. The liner notes built it up to sound like the best free-improv rock
power trio ever, but the track just didn't do it for me. Certainly doesn't
touch Arcana's last Wave, or even the Derek and the Ruins CD, IMHO. Have
not heard anything else by Gary Smith, though.

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:27:11 +0200
From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

> I think these comments bring up some interesting points.
>
> Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother
>inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the
>participants is unhappy with it?
>
> If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there
>'something to it'?


I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was varied.
First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started ditching the
album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The album is
good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think that
part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think that the
album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when listening
to the music to know what the music is about. It had some disappointments -
I was expecting something completely different from that set of musicians,
and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr.
Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their
disappointment towards what they expected.

Anyway, you've seen how Mr. Bungle have changed from the self-titled to
Disco Volante, perhaps their next album will be a disappointment also, while
Spruance might think of it as their master-piece. You can never know.
Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced to do
the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could have
said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the album, and
THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one should
buy it. I wonder it Trey is one of those anti-Zorn-ists working
infiltrated...

Felix
[e-mail]




- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:27:38 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:27:11 +0200  "Felix" wrote:
>
> > I think these comments bring up some interesting points.
> >
> > Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother
> >inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the
> >participants is unhappy with it?
> >
> > If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there
> >'something to it'?

I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has with
the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music.

I assume that something went wrong between him and Zorn (or between him and
Patton, since John and Mike are good pals).

The bitterness of his mail reminds me of a couple which splits. We are
always hearing the trouble from the victim's side :-).

But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some improv/noise
is great or crap? For some people (the "dogmatic") it is good by definition
(or the question about "good" and "bad" is irrelevant). And the vast majority
does not even care of the genre (and they would not believe, anyway, that you
can even make music which is 100% improvised or noise :-). The result?
Zillions of records that are "great" and very few that ten years after you
really remember or put on your turntable...

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100
From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy

> I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was
> varied.
> First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started
> ditching the
> album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The
> album is
> good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think
> that
> part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think
> that the
> album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when
> listening
> to the music to know what the music is about.
>
How much is the music related to the text? It would seem that the music
is quite old, was the text for it conceived at the same time?

>  It had some disappointments -
> I was expecting something completely different from that set of
> musicians,
> and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr.
> Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their
> disappointment towards what they expected.
>
    I guess if you were expecting a Mr Bungle/Naked City type rave
up you'd be disappointed but to people used to hearing the likes of Fred
Frith, Derek Bailey, Henry Kaiser, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, Nurse
With Wound etc it isn't at all weird.

> Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced
> to do
> the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could
> have
> said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the
> album, and
>
I rather got the impression Zorn released it but I may be wrong.

> THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one
> should
> buy it.
>
Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to
be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of
'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but
are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels
this way about WLB.

Scott


> -
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:41:07 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
>
> Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to
> be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of
> 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but
> are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you have anything in mind when writing that? That's exactly what I felt
with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack Smith.
My most embarrasssing record buy in ages.

> this way about WLB.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:50:01 +0100
From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy

    Idefinitely agree with Patrice here.

> I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has
> with
> the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music.
>
> But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some
> improv/noise
> is great or crap?
>
    I think this is true of any kind of abstract art. It doesn't
rely on established benchmarks so we only have gut feelings and
intuition to discern that what we're hearing or seeing is of some value
and not just some kind of hoax.

    Even so, a hoax could be art too...

    Scott
> -
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:57:28 +0100
From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy

> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
> >
> > Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it
> to
> > be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues
> of
> > 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces
> but
> > are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance
> feels
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Do you have anything in mind when writing that?
>
I didn't have a specific recording in mind though I have recently
acquired Smegma meets Wild Man Fischer and have a suspicion that I'm
just listening to drivel and not great outsider art that has deep things
to say about our fractured psyches...

Looking at sites such as Forced Exposure one can see this trend growing;
see recordings by Sun City Girls, lost electronic works etc etc I'm not
criticisng either of these outfits but one can see the danger in
overdoing the obscurity value of these things.

> That's exactly what I felt
> with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack
> Smith.
> My most embarrasssing record buy in ages.
>
Can you give me some idea what this is like? I've seen it about but
haven't had the nerve to get it. I just got a copy of Smith's collected
writings, Meet Me at the Bottom of the Pool.

Scott

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #436
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