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1998-08-13
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #435
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, August 14 1998 Volume 02 : Number 435
In this issue:
-
Cobra And Games
Zappa
new Blind Idiot God out?
weird little boy
Re: zappa
New Blind Idiot God?
RE: weird little boy
God/Lou Ciccotelli
Two cents on Zappa
RE: weird little boy
RE: weird little boy
Michel Godard
Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
re: weird little boy
Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
weird little boy
cobra review
Re: Two cents on Zappa
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:48:30 EDT
From: <Orangejazz@aol.com>
Subject: Cobra And Games
I know that the list has gone over this topic several times, but i still don't
feel that an accurate definition of the games has been presented. In no way or
form do I understand the graph inside of the Hat release of Cobra, and i would
really like to get an idea on how to perform one of these pieces, or at least
know how they are assembled. Does anyone have any information?
from,
matt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Vlad-Drac@webtv.net (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Zappa
I tend to lean toward the later offerings by Zappa. Especially when he
used the Synclavier Machine to perform the music. To hear the
Synclavier in top form check out "Jazz from Hell", "Mothers of
Prevention", and yes "Civilization part 3". The band he used from '73
to '77 was arguably the best at his disposal but I often prefer the
songs that the '88 band did. Hey, to each his own. I like Zorn's stuff
better though. More room for improve and hypnotic trance shit. More
alive, I thiink.
- -Theo
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:20:17 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: new Blind Idiot God out?
Few month ago, somebody mentioned a new Blind Idiot God record to
be released on Avant:
?? - ROCK: Blind Idiot God (1998 - Avant, Avan ?? (CD))
Has anybody seen it?
Thanks,
Patrice.
PS: this is not a catch; I am just curious to know if it is out or not.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:38:54 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <sunny70@sirius.com>
Subject: weird little boy
Hey folks,
Did any of you happen to spot the posting on alt.noise by someone named
"Trey" about a week ago? Basically "Trey" (if it really is Trey Spruance)
*completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" -- he concludes, "Unless wasting
thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy
post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs." (The vitriol goes on and on.)
Can anyone confirm or deny if it was indeed him? Or was I trolled?
I could post the whole message if you folks want (it hardly provoked any
reaction on alt.noise, anyhow).
Later,
Ben
np: john zorn, "pink"
http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:06:16 -0500
From: Rich Williams <punkjazz@snet.net>
Subject: Re: zappa
Sulacco@aol.com wrote:
> Brian Olewnick wrote
> One thing that's struck me as curious: It would seem clear that Zappa's 'Lumpy
> Gravy' (and similar efforts here and there on his early records) was a direct
> antecedant to JZ's cut-up efforts of the mid 80's. To the best of my knowledge,
> Zorn has never acknowledged this. Does anyone know otherwise?
FWIW, I did once glimpse the famed JZ vinyl collection, and he had most
or all of the early Verve discs.
> >FWIW, I'm a FZ fan up to and including 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich' (with 'Uncle
>
> Meat', my favorite FZ recording). After that point, he bores me to tears.
>
>
>
> interesting. somehow i would have thought there are more out there who thought
> his compositions got more interesting after he stopped using musicians to play
> them.
I think that is part of what myself, and a lot of others, dislike about
much of FZ's post-Mothers output. The early albums were made by a group
of people who obviously had a ball playing together, where the later
stuff is highly scripted, 100% FZ, and as he readily admitted, Zappa led
a very insulated life. He claimed to have no "friends", only
"employees". That attitude is bound to find its way into ones art.
> have you checked out civilization phase III? i would say try b4 you buy,
> but check it out.
I really wanted to like this, but it sounds to me like he re-made Lumpy
Gravy with state of the art digital technology. I would definitely
recommend the live discs that the 1988 touring band made though. They
cover quite a bit of the old repertoire as well as covers of Hendrix,
Stravinsky, and others. And to Brian and others, who prefer the old
stuff, check out the "Lost Episodes" disc. It has some of FZ 's earliest
soundtrack work.
BTW, The Zappa estate is very open to suggestions of what archival
material to release next, And if enough people request it, maybe someday
we'll see the 75 disc Complete Garrick Theatre 1967 box set... ;-)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:17:08 PDT
From: "Silent Watcher" <silent_watcher@hotmail.com>
Subject: New Blind Idiot God?
I think it was me who posted about a new BIG album, after seeing a
listing for it at Music Boulevard, from which it has since disappeared.
I checked around, and someone had a listing for it at gemm.com (it was
called "Rock"), but the catalog number was the same as "Cyclotron".
Didn't Avant give re-releases to some of the older albums in it's
catalog recently, and if so, is it possible that's what it was?
DB
For Sale/Want List & Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographys at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:05:22 +0100
From: ScottRussell <ScottRussell@scottishmedia.com>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
> Basically "Trey"
> *completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" --
>
> I could post the whole message if you folks want (it hardly provoked
> any
> reaction on alt.noise, anyhow).
>
I'd like to see this posting. Considering the rather alarmed
thread that greeted this release on this list I'd like to know what the
beef is?
Personally I find WLB a perfectly acceptable set of improv/avant
garde noise, not the best I've ever heard but not the worst either. Has
JZ made any comments about it or Spruance's remarks?
Yours curiously
Scott Russell
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:15:56 PDT
From: "robert ludington" <felonious_punk@hotmail.com>
Subject: God/Lou Ciccotelli
I'm a big fan of God, especially the playing of the
drummer/percussionist Lou Ciccotelli. I've noticed his influence quite
a bit in my own playing recently, and was wondering if anyone had any
info on him, or any other albums with his playing other than with God?
I've searched the net with little result..... any help would be
appreciated, thanx!
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:12:41 EDT
From: <TagYrIt@aol.com>
Subject: Two cents on Zappa
For what its worth, I wanted to toss in some of my personal observations about
Zappa. I canÆt think of any other artists that I have such polar feelings
about (and I should add, I own every Zappa CD that RykoÆs released, and
several others). Musically, for most of his career, and particularly from the
early æ70Æs on, I feel Frank pushed his work as much as he felt like at the
time and came up with some wonderful results. And I certainly enjoyed that
ride. I could pick any 5-year period from his output and point to something
inspiring from each of those periods that I go back to with some regularlity.
But, the big ôhoweverö: I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to
tune out (with a few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I am
really incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as IÆm
concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school that
thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every social barb in his
lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny. If that was his
intention...IÆd imagine he could have accomplished much the same thing in the
space of one album. Its not the sort of thing I enjoy seeing someone make a
career of. Then again, I pretty much canÆt stand Jim Carrey either, but
evidently a lot of people like him.
Dale.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:17:16 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <sunny70@sirius.com>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of ScottRussell
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 4:05 PM
> I'd like to see this posting. Considering the rather alarmed
> thread that greeted this release on this list I'd like to know what the
> beef is?
Here ya go: unedited, copied right out of alt.noise. As mentioned earlier,
disclaimers about the truth of the identity of the poster apply:
- -----------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 00:05:46 -0700, in alt.noise Trey
<mimicry@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Please heed the warnings on this group about the worthless shlock CD
>entitled "Weird Little Boy" and DON'T BUY IT!
>
>I know: I played on the piece of shit. I wish I had'nt.
>It was recorded years ago, and what started off as an OK idea (Zorn,
>Cochrane and myself writing short pieces for each other to be composed,
>recorded and mixed in one day) degenerated into a "scene" jerkoff/hardee
>har har/are'nt we clever/party as it somehow magically stareted to
>incorporate more and more 'big name' people as the day went on.
>The result is totally useless and pathetic.
>
>I take responsibility for being lame enough to be involved in this kind
>of thing ("never again", as they say), but I am shocked at the LOW LINE
>drawn in the Zorn quality control department. And to marry this lump of
>aural dogshit to such great packaging is an inexcusable offense, I
>think.
>
>Yeah, some giddy newcomers to "experimental" music might find layers of
>subversive irony within it, what with all the 'big names' engaging in
>pure musical vacuity along with the additional "absurdity" of it being
>retailed at such a high price. Besides, "There HAS to be something to
>it", otherwise we're not as smart as we thought we were for BUYING it.
>Hmm... I think most of us have had enough of that kind of thing.
>
>Unless wasting thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy
>post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs.
>
>
>-t
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 02:13:27 +0100
From: ScottRussell <ScottRussell@scottishmedia.com>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
I think these comments bring up some interesting points.
Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother
inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the
participants is unhappy with it?
If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there
'something to it'?
> >Yeah, some giddy newcomers to "experimental" music
>
I am neither giddy nor a newcomer to experimental music and, like I said
before, it isn't the best example of this kind of thing... but neither
is it the worst.
> might find layers of
> >subversive irony within it,
>
I thought there were some interesting textures and soundscapes going on.
Many of which have resemblances to pieces on other Zorn albums, am I to
infer I might be getting 'ripped off' there too?
> Besides, "There HAS to be something to
> >it", otherwise we're not as smart as we thought we were for BUYING
> it.
> >Hmm... I think most of us have had enough of that kind of thing.
>
As it happens I got it by accident and I was expecting it to be
bad.
I buy a great deal of experimental music and generally have no
problem discarding stuff I don't connect with. Of course not being there
when it was done, it's impossible to tell much about the atmosphere of
the event nor the motives of those involved but since this album doesn't
sound (to me at least) as superficial and cynical as Spruance suggests,
I wonder how to bridge the gap between the expectation of the performer
and the actuality of the performance?
Scott
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:11:02 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: Michel Godard
Relistening to the second disc of the La Banda album a few times, I've
come around to enjoy it more and more, especially the piece by French
tubaist Michel Godard. Is anyone familiar with his other work? I know
he's appeared on some of those jazz/Arabic melds on Enja, the ones in
the leatherette sleeves, but I haven't gotten around to checking them
out yet (the current-Summer-issue of Avant has an intriguing review of
one of them).
Thanks,
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT
From: <JonAbbey2@aol.com>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
<<I'm a big fan of God, especially the playing of the
drummer/percussionist Lou Ciccotelli. I've noticed his influence quite
a bit in my own playing recently, and was wondering if anyone had any
info on him, or any other albums with his playing other than with God?>>
Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
Chronoscope, which is also a guitar trio record. Both of these should be
available through Forced Exposure (www.fe.org) or North Country
(www.cadencebuilding.com).
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:30:12 PDT
From: "Scott Handley" <c123018@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: weird little boy
Not that any of this matters at ALL, but I learned about Iancu
Dumitrescu on the Secret Chiefs Trio's Web of Mimicry website.
Insofar as perpetual outrage can be stylistic, the anti-Zorn, anti-
Downtown invective on that site sure sounded like the alt.noise post.
Is it a "Chief"? Is it Trey Spruance? Hmmm...
I don't care. But the breathless kudos to Dumitrescu are fun to read
and I
guess they guided me toward him.
- --scott
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Weil <weilj@ecn.purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
1. Slab!
2. God
3. Ice
4. Laika
5. Gary Smith
6. Mass
Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under
the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except
maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure. 5 and 6 can be acquired
through Forced Exposure, as stated earlier.
Any advice on how to get the Ethiopiques vol 1-4 on Buda Musique?
thanks
jw
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:17:06 -0700
From: Michael Howes <mhowes@best.com>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
>This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
>as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
>1. Slab!
>2. God
>3. Ice
>4. Laika
>5. Gary Smith
>6. Mass
Hmm...I'm a HUGE fan of God, Ice, and Laika and have most everything
they've each released (mostly because of the Justin Broadrick connection)
but I've never even heard of Slab!, Gary Smith or Mass...so what do these
sound like?
thanks
mike
mhowes@best.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:49:15 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: weird little boy
> Did any of you happen to spot the posting on alt.noise by someone named
> "Trey" about a week ago? Basically "Trey" (if it really is Trey Spruance)
> *completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" -- he concludes, "Unless wasting
> thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy
> post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs." (The vitriol goes on and on.)
> Can anyone confirm or deny if it was indeed him? Or was I trolled?
>
yes thats him...in a private email he warned me to buy it since he called
it complete shit and a goddamn waste of money
BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:18 -0400
From: Marc Downing <mpdownin@fes.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: cobra review
A review of Cobra, seen at Tonic by a NYC friend:
I went to see Zorn's Cobra last night...it was
fascinating. A dozen musicians sat in a semi-circle around John, who
stood before a table covered with 20 mysteriously coded flashcards.
They would all gesture excitedly with strange handsignals to each
other, playing in response to the cards, the noise operating on some
loosely controlled chaos theorum. (is that possible?) The silliness
escalated, as headbands were incorporated into the code; everyone was
laughing and snorting through their instruments, frantically putting
on their headgear in time, while making music that will never be heard
again. Some people I haven't seen before: David Shea, Vernon Reid,
others that escape my memory. A man with three didgeridoos. It was
good fun. Afterward as I was standing amongst a crowd outside having
a cigarette, someone starting hurling eggs at us from some unseen
height; lethal yolked missiles crashed on the sidewalk at great
speeds, sounding quite unlike eggs. Luckily no one was hit (again,
chaos theorum).
Those chickens were definately never meant to survive.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 98 09:47:29 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Re: Two cents on Zappa
> I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to tune out (with a
>few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I am really
>incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as I'm
>concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school
>that thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every
>social barb in his lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny.
>If that was his intention...
Dale,
Good points, though again I'd differentiate, at least a bit, between
pre and post-1971. For example, the lyrics (and, in fact, the whole
concept) of 'We're Only In It For the Money' are some of the most
prescient (and funny) I've ever heard on a rock album, especially
considering the time and milieu in which it was recorded. I only
became aware of Zappa about two years after this release, but I can
imagine the effect this had on the hippie community, who doubtless
thought this freak was one of their own. I daresay it helped foster my
own eventual disgust at the whole notion of fashion with lines that
hit very close to home at the time like, "Oh, my hair's getting good
in the back."
Not that they quite qualify as lyrics, but two other eye openers were
1) Jimmy Carl Black's dead honest whining about not getting paid on
'Uncle Meat' and 2) the single most honest and trenchant comment I've
ever heard from a "rock star": Zappa's "uniform" remark on BWS.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #435
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