Sean Wilkie send a comment about adorno's views of music, to which i would like add my two cents
- -BTW, some two years ago there was a discussion - which i started -on this list about similarities and differences between fripp and zorn. At some point, somebody used this 2cnts exdpression, someone replied, and added that he also does, BUT, as he is canadian, he adds tho canadian cents, so it's a little bit less... Sop someone remarked they could start to collect thes cents to buy a japanese edition 3cd version of painkiller... "what i didn't know about the 3 cd edition" "oh well, it cost $$..."... Thats how Crim discussion ended. It's beautiful to see the strange manner in which topics come and go, and reemerge on such lists...
But, back to the subject of my mail...
I believe that adorno's vision of culture, society and value is completly different from the one present (or rather inmplied by)in John Zorn's work. In fact, Adorno's critique of mass culture as included in dialectics of the enlightment is based on a kind of "knowledge what is right". His (OK, he wrote the book with horkheimmer, it's not only his fault...) vison relies heavyly on the idea of absolute musical standard, and what is even more importatnt - a kind of hate towards ordinary people's use of music. He knows what music is (or at least he thinks he does), so he can declare what is right and what is wrong, on the other side - JZ does not, so he tries to DO some interesting, create good music, and by this fact, redifine to some point what "good music" really is. JZ treats sounds; all kinds of music people do - and kinds of things people do with music - as something interesting, as a new, intersting point, something which is interesting. For adorno, making music is enetring a kind of competition with the classics. for Zorn it's a infinite creation.
I think that two authors can provide a good theoretical background for an analisys of the kind of music we are interested in: Alasdair MacIntyre with hi s virtue ethics that rely in an important way on a kind of an antiinstitutional, living tradition, and respect for people passions, and Kantian ethics with its equal respect for ordinary and the idea of "act from duty", by which we could analyse the differnence between other musics and the one(s) JZ does.
see you and good luck holland - you're going to win the whole thing...
- ---
Marcin Gokieli
mkkgokieli@mailexcite.com
"If adversity and hopeless sorrow have completely taken away the relish for life; if the unfortunate one, strong in mind, indignant at his fate rather than desponding or dejected, wishes for death,and yet preserves his life without loving it- not from inclination or fear, but from duty- then his maxim has a moral worth." :-)
Immanuel Kant, 1724-1804
Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysic of Morals
>Musical Quarterly (spring 1992, volume 76, number one) by Theodore A.
>Gracyk, titled "Adorno, Jazz and the Aesthetics of Popular Music,
>which takes a very good standpoint against Adorno's ideas about
>popular music with the use of his own theories. Art-music regarding
>to Adorno has three aspects: atonality, social relevance and freedom
>of form. They all come back in Zorn's music and in jazz from the
>50's, but Adorno never said he was wrong.
>In this view he's characteristic for a certain behaviour very common
>to aestheticians and sociologists in postmodern society: the
>struggle for legitimicy within the high-arts and the fear of the
>dissapearing borders between popular and non-popular art.
I complety agree with you. But remark that's this man intellectual stanpoint implies such attitude: the idea of magical-metaphisycal knowledge some (ie adorno, horkheiimer, and maybe, to a certain degree, heidegger) have, and which is inaccessible, and has nothing to do, with the ordinary man thionking about the world (compare him to JL Austin, late Wittgenstein, or even Kant).
>> PS I think Stam fouled Ortega. But I was rooting for the Dutch.
>....
no he did not...
Marcin Gokieli
mkkgokieli@mailexcite.com
"IF I HAD KNOWN IT WAS HARMLESS I WOULD HAVE KILLED IT MYSELF"
Philip K. Dick, "A Scanner Darkly"
Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com
- -
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Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:35:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Ornette news
Here's an interesting item I picked up on the Harmolodic site:
Ornette Coleman will be playing the Umbria (Italy) Jazz Fest July
14, 15 and 16 with three different groups. One will feature Prime Time
and dancers and rappers; one will feature Ornette and Indian classical
musicians; and on the first night he will perform in a quartet setting
with Billy Higgins (d); Charlie Haden (b) and --wait for it -- *Lee
Konitz* (as).
Not only has (to my knowledge) Ornette never performed with
Konitz before, I don't think there are any examples of him *ever* playing
with another altoist. (The Blue Note sessions with Jackie McLean featured
OC on tmpt and vi).
Watch the categories melting
Ken Waxman
cj649@torfree.net
- -
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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:13:09 -0400
From: Matt Lyon <mlyon@aw.sgi.com>
Subject: Sabbath in Paradise
About a month ago at the Toronto Jewish Film Festival I attended a
screening of SABBATH IN PARADISE, a documentary about the development of
Jewish music. Mostly New York artists are featured ranging in style
from traditional Klezmer to "modern jazz" (for lack of a better term).
Zorn scored the film and appears in several scenes. The are some great
scenes of Zorn and co. at KF and some solo guitar. Unfortunately Zorn
is never interviewed. Because of this the film was basically ruined for
me, as he was the only reason I attended. Ha s anybody else seen it?
It's worth a look just to see a bit of Zorn offstage and at band
practice.
the film is listed on the Internet Movie Database, http://www.imdb.com
if you're interested in seeing the featured artists and film crew.
- --
Matthew Lyon
mlyon@aw.sgi.com
Alias|Wavefront Inc. (416) 362-8558 ext.8565
210 King Street East, Toronto M5A 1J7
Fax: (416) 369-6131 http://www.aw.sgi.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:17:51 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Sabbath in Paradise
On Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:13:09 -0400 Matt Lyon wrote:
>
>
> About a month ago at the Toronto Jewish Film Festival I attended a
> screening of SABBATH IN PARADISE, a documentary about the development of
> Jewish music. Mostly New York artists are featured ranging in style
> from traditional Klezmer to "modern jazz" (for lack of a better term).
> Zorn scored the film and appears in several scenes. The are some great
> scenes of Zorn and co. at KF and some solo guitar. Unfortunately Zorn
> is never interviewed. Because of this the film was basically ruined for
^^^^^^
Ruined? Simply because Zorn is quiet (for a change :-)?
> me, as he was the only reason I attended. Ha s anybody else seen it?
> It's worth a look just to see a bit of Zorn offstage and at band
> practice.
You know, there are plenty of things worth to watch even if Zorn does not
appear in them...
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:28:13 -0400
From: Matt Lyon <mlyon@aw.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Sabbath in Paradise
I wasn't trying to imply that I only see things which Zorn appears in, but
the fact of the matter is that I wouldn't have attended this documentary had
Zorn not appeared.
I felt it simply didn't hold up as a film. It was unengaging and offered
little insight into Jewish music. The film had its moments, but overall
I was unimpressed. That is why I say it's only worth seeing for the Zorn
content.
Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:13:09 -0400 Matt Lyon wrote:
> >
> >
> > About a month ago at the Toronto Jewish Film Festival I attended a
> > screening of SABBATH IN PARADISE, a documentary about the development of
> > Jewish music. Mostly New York artists are featured ranging in style
> > from traditional Klezmer to "modern jazz" (for lack of a better term).
> > Zorn scored the film and appears in several scenes. The are some great
> > scenes of Zorn and co. at KF and some solo guitar. Unfortunately Zorn
> > is never interviewed. Because of this the film was basically ruined for
> ^^^^^^
> Ruined? Simply because Zorn is quiet (for a change :-)?
>
> > me, as he was the only reason I attended. Ha s anybody else seen it?
> > It's worth a look just to see a bit of Zorn offstage and at band
> > practice.
>
> You know, there are plenty of things worth to watch even if Zorn does not
> appear in them...
>
> Patrice.
- --
Matthew Lyon
mlyon@aw.sgi.com
Alias|Wavefront Inc. (416) 362-8558 ext.8565
210 King Street East, Toronto M5A 1J7
Fax: (416) 369-6131 http://www.aw.sgi.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:37:40 -0500
From: jtalbot@massart.edu
Subject: mike patton @ tonic
did anyone make it to the Mike Patton show at Tonic on saturday june 27th? if
so could you please email me privately. thanks
jason
jtalbot@massart.edu
- -
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Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:31:10 +0200
From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Cypher 7
Hi!
Is anybody able to give me the text (it's French, so I don't understand too
much) of "Message Important" on _Cypher 7: Security_? Please?
Kind regards,
- Chris.
---------------------------------------------
* Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de *
* Homepage & Herbie Hancock Discography at: *
* http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ *
---------------------------------------------
- -
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Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: tosh@loop.com (Tosh)
Subject: Christian Marclay
Yesterday I purchased a copy of MORE ENCORES by Christian Marclay. I have
heard his name for years, but never heard his music. I am totally knocked
out by this cd. I think it is a beautiful piece of music.
- -----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
- ----------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:24:50 +0800
From: numbat@vianet.net.au (Sibree/Wilkes)
Subject: AUCTION - FREE JAZZ/AVANT GARDE
A reminder that this auction closes July 9. Email me for details if required.
