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Zorn List Digest        Saturday, June 13 1998        Volume 02 : Number 392



In this issue:
-
       Race and "Downtown": Another Question
       Re: Re[2]: Kronos, again/Africa
       Re: Kronos, again/Africa
       Re: Hancock's Sextant
       Re: While we're on the subject of Int'l music...
       Re:  Hancock's Sextant
       Re: sarrusophone
       Re: Need Help Tracking Down _Meridiem_
       Raymond Scott
       Raymond Scott -Reply
       Re: Race and "Downtown": Another Question
       Re: Raymond Scott
       Re: sarrusophone
       Re: Hancock's Sextant
       Phantamos
       Re: Phantamos
       Re: Re[2]: Another Downtown Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:41:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Race and "Downtown": Another Question

Reading the recent posts on the 80's "downtown" scene, I was struck by the
fact that, other than Brian Olewnick's mention of Jamaaladeen Tacuma, the
artists being discussed were overwhelmingly "white".  It brought to the
surface a question that's been nagging at the back of my mind for quite a
while.
     Why does the "downtown" tag tend to attach to "white" musicians
and not "black" ones?  I understand why, say, the NYC energy scene
dominated by "black" musicians tends not to get mentioned in the same
sentences as Zorn et al.  It sounds really different, and there's not that
much overlap among the players.  But even guys like Butch Morris, George
Lewis, and Don Byron whose work is of a similar spirit to the standard
"downtown" names and have often worked with musicians who are identified
with that scene aren't generally discussed as "downtown" players.

     Please note that I'm not accusing anyone on this list of racism.  To
the extent that we've bought into the distinction on this list, it's just
the result of taking the use of the "downtown" tag in the press.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:47:11 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Kronos, again/Africa

In a message dated 98-06-11 09:34:31 EDT, you (brian_olewnick) wrote:

<< For the sake of historical accuracy, the two lead female singers of Tarika
 Sammy (Sammy's Group), Hanitra and Noro, broke off to form their own band,
 Tarika. Sammy Andriamalalaharijaona has continued with his band which, I
 think, is still called Tarika Sammy. >>

Thanks for the info- was completely unaware of this...

I chucked:

>Also worth looking for are the two volumes called _Out of Madagascar_
>recorded/produced by guitarists David Lindley and Henry Kaiser during their
>two visits to the country.  They participate in very little of the music, if
>that means anything to you.

  Brian then said:

     The series is called 'A World Out of Time' and there are actually
     three volumes (last time I looked) available now.

Thanks for the correction.  I was obviously working offline resources at the
moment!

=dgasque=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:31:58 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos, again/Africa

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-06-11 09:34:31 EDT, you (brian_olewnick) wrote:
>
> << For the sake of historical accuracy, the two lead female singers of Tarika
>  Sammy (Sammy's Group), Hanitra and Noro, broke off to form their own band,
>  Tarika. Sammy Andriamalalaharijaona has continued with his band which, I
>  think, is still called Tarika Sammy. >>
>
> Thanks for the info- was completely unaware of this...

I think the pop-oriented Tarika is the one Henry Kaiser now refers to as "Tarika
Shammy."

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:03:12 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hancock's Sextant

Chris Genzel wrote:

> > > them into something even worse.  however, i just bought herbie hancock's
> > > "sextant" (1973) and boy is that one ass-kicking record!  the band manage
> > > an amalgamation of everything raw about free-jazz, electronics
> > > experimentation and gut-bucket funk.  dated?  no way!
> >
> > Hum, you make me curious about that one (hey, I even love ROCKIT). I will
> > definitely look for it.

I'd like to jump in here to make one note: "Sextant" is in incredible album and I
agree with what Chris wrote about it.  Its two predecessors, "Mwandishi" and
"Crossing," feature  the same band (minus the synth programmer and extra
percussionist who came on board with "Sextant") and are also worth checking out by
those into the deeper mysteries of UR-fusion, back when things were actually being
"fused".....  The core of that band was a first rate jazz sextet, which may have a
lot to do with why this experimental stuff still sounds good now... Hancock, Bennie
Maupin, Eddie Henderson, Julian Priester, Buster Williams and Billy Hart.  Both of
the earlier albums are available in an inexpensive two-CD set of the complete
Hancock recordings for Warner Brothers (which also includes an earlier album's worth
of material from "Fat Albert" by a different Hancock band).

Those into the funky sounds of analogue and incredibly early digital keyboards
simply must check these out, as Herbie deploys everything from mellotron to ARP and
most points in between.  Such lunatics won't mind the $25+ price tag on the Japanese
Sony import Forced Exposure has so kindly provided  (I bought mine two weeks ago.)
But for the merely curious who are scratching their heads over spending a bunch of
money on the Japanese import, I would only add that Columbia Legacy will be issuing
a domestic version, complete with English-language liner notes, in August or
September.

It was immediately after "Sextant" that Herbie took a radical about-face into
simpler music and funkier grooves with the bestselling "Headhunters."  That album
also has its  merits (it ain't Spyro Gyra or Kenny Gorelick, that's for sure), but
Herbie's most cutting edge material was on the three previous albums.

And yes, Patrice, I too enjoy "Rockit" (and just watched Herbie and band play it
live on a Saturday Night Live rereun on Comedy Central last night), but I think that
that was a cutting edge *Laswell* record... wouldn't you agree?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:24:22 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: While we're on the subject of Int'l music...

> it possible there's some sort of mouthpiece that I don't have?  As far
> as the rhaita...it's been compared to an oboe, and I was lead to believe
> that you could use oboe reeds with it. There is no mouthpiece, but there
> is an opening about 7/16" in diameter at the top. Being unfamiliar with
> the physical characteristics of an oboe, is this in any way similar, or
> is there a mouthpiece involved here too, like the woodwind instruments
> that I'm familiar with. Any help at all would be extremely appreciated.

I don't usually use inches but I would say an oboe reed is closer to about
a third of an inch. The reeds go straight into the top of the oboe by the
way, no extra mouthpiece.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:44:34 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re:  Hancock's Sextant

> I'd like to jump in here to make one note: "Sextant" is in incredible album
> and I agree with what Chris wrote about it.  Its two predecessors, "Mwandishi"
> and "Crossing," feature  the same band (minus the synth programmer and extra
> percussionist who came on board with "Sextant") and are also worth checking
> out by those into the deeper mysteries of UR-fusion, back when things were
> actually being "fused".....  The core of that band was a first rate jazz
> sextet, which may have a lot to do with why this experimental stuff still
> sounds good now... Hancock, Bennie Maupin, Eddie Henderson, Julian Priester,
> Buster Williams and Billy Hart.

 By the way, Bennie Maupin and Dr. Patrick Gleason (both contributed excellently
 to "Sextant" and "Crossings") have issued a new CD, "Driving While Black".
 It's obviously some sort of trip-hop-jazz; I hope I can get it soon. This duo
 has one track on "Macro Dub Infection, Vol. 2", as Magnet, but the track is
 remixed by Techno-Animal, so you can't really tell how they sound.

> It was immediately after "Sextant" that Herbie took a radical about-face into
> simpler music and funkier grooves with the bestselling "Headhunters."  That
> album also has its  merits (it ain't Spyro Gyra or Kenny Gorelick, that's for
> sure), but Herbie's most cutting edge material was on the three previous
> albums.

 I wouldn't call it simpler ... it's easier to catch on, but there are still
 some difficult things going on. For a glimpse of the Sextant days, listen
 to the last track on "Secrets" (1976), which Bennie Maupin wrote, "Sanso
 Shima". It's quite intense. But you're right, the 1971-1973 albums were the
 most weird ones.

> And yes, Patrice, I too enjoy "Rockit" (and just watched Herbie and band play
> it live on a Saturday Night Live rereun on Comedy Central last night), but I
> think that that was a cutting edge *Laswell* record... wouldn't you agree?

 I'd too say that "Future Shock", "Sound-System" and "Perfect Machine" are
 Laswell albums ... though Hancock presumably had some influence on these
 records, it was most probably Laswell who put things together.


 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:21:08 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sarrusophone

Hope someone can remember this thread: is the sarrusophone a double-
reed instrument?  Whatever, Sidney Bechet is playing one on a
Clarence Williams' Blue Five session from 1924 (or 1923? with
Armstrong): the track I have is "Mandy, Make Up Your Mind".  It (the
s/phone) sounds horrible in a very interesting way!

Sean Wilkie

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:47:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Need Help Tracking Down _Meridiem_

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Audino <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>     Paul>     I could use some leads in my search to track down the
>     Paul> Laswell/Howard/Hayward/Frith: _Meridiem_ release which the
>     Paul> Materiali Sonori web page says has been released.  I did
>     Paul> find one all-Italian web site, but the lack of English
>     Paul> translations would make ordering a daunting task.
>
> I've had some success with other Materiali Sonori releases at
> ab-cd.com.

Thanks for the recomendation.  ab-cd.com does have it for about $22.  In
case anyone is looking, _Lingo_ the new Almamegretta disc, is available at
www.musicexpress.com for a similar price.

Thanks,

Paul
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:42:02 UT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Raymond Scott

I just got the Beau Hunks doing a Raymond Scott tribute, and although the
production is much better than the thin stuff of the originals (I have the
Columbia package too) and it's very good, I was wondering

does anyone know of any covers of Raymond Scott tunes that rock?  I'm looking
for somebody like the NRG Ensemble to cover some of his tunes or something I
guess.  Anything like that?

Thanks,
Peter

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:00:41 -0400
From: Joe Sever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Raymond Scott -Reply

I just picked up Don Byron's _Bug Music_, which is essentially a "tribute"
(for lack of a better term) of the "music of The Raymond Scott Quintette,
John Kirby & His Orchestra, and The Duke Ellington Orchestra".

It's well done, and the lineup consists of folks associated with the
"Downtown" scene (this _is_ the Zorn list...)  -- Joey Baron, Steven
Bernstein, David Gilmore.  I'm not sure it "rocks", though...

j

>>> <[e-mail]> 07/12/98 10:42am >>>
I just got the Beau Hunks doing a Raymond Scott tribute, and although the
production is much better than the thin stuff of the originals (I have the
Columbia package too) and it's very good, I was wondering

does anyone know of any covers of Raymond Scott tunes that rock?  I'm
looking
for somebody like the NRG Ensemble to cover some of his tunes or
something I
guess.  Anything like that?

Thanks,
Peter

- -



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:14:18 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Race and "Downtown": Another Question

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:41:53 -0400 (EDT)  Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> Reading the recent posts on the 80's "downtown" scene, I was struck by the
> fact that, other than Brian Olewnick's mention of Jamaaladeen Tacuma, the
> artists being discussed were overwhelmingly "white".  It brought to the
> surface a question that's been nagging at the back of my mind for quite a
> while.
>      Why does the "downtown" tag tend to attach to "white" musicians
> and not "black" ones?  I understand why, say, the NYC energy scene
> dominated by "black" musicians tends not to get mentioned in the same
> sentences as Zorn et al.  It sounds really different, and there's not that
> much overlap among the players.  But even guys like Butch Morris, George
> Lewis, and Don Byron whose work is of a similar spirit to the standard
> "downtown" names and have often worked with musicians who are identified
> with that scene aren't generally discussed as "downtown" players.
>
>      Please note that I'm not accusing anyone on this list of racism.  To
> the extent that we've bought into the distinction on this list, it's just
> the result of taking the use of the "downtown" tag in the press.

Nobody is surprised that the free improv is mainly played by white musicians
(Bailey, Parker, etc), because it came from Europe.

I guess the only reason I see why so few blacks are involved with the NY
downtown scene is that the roots of this genre are to be found mainly in free
improv and contemporary music. Blacks are overwhelmingly present in (post)free
jazz, but almost absent from free improv. With the exception of Braxton, Leo
Smith, G. Lewis, etc, blacks are also almost absent from contemporary
classical music.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 10:45:16 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Raymond Scott

Peter Risser wrote:

>does anyone know of any covers of Raymond Scott tunes that rock?  I'm looking
>for somebody like the NRG Ensemble to cover some of his tunes or something I
>guess.  Anything like that?

     Well, don't know if it "rocks" or not, but Phillip Johnston's version
     of 'Powerhouse' on one of his Big Trouble albums (I think the first
     one on Black Saint) is certainly rollicking.

     Brian Olewnick
- -





- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:09:55 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sarrusophone

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:21:08 GMT0BST  DR S WILKIE wrote:
>
> Hope someone can remember this thread: is the sarrusophone a double-
> reed instrument?  Whatever, Sidney Bechet is playing one on a
  ^^^^^

Double-reed, that's what I heard, altough I have never seen any.

    Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:25:14 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hancock's Sextant

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:03:12 -0400  Steve Smith wrote:
>
> And yes, Patrice, I too enjoy "Rockit" (and just watched Herbie and band play it
> live on a Saturday Night Live rereun on Comedy Central last night), but I think that
> that was a cutting edge *Laswell* record... wouldn't you agree?

You bet! This is with records like that I started to pay attention to
Laswell (the first tickling being the great KILLING TIME).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: chad edwards <[e-mail]>
Subject: Phantamos

 I just read in a recent issue of Guitar World that
Mike Patton has been collaborating with Dave
Lombardo, King Buzzo and Trevor Dunn under the name
Phantamos. It was only a short blurb and left many
questions unanswered. Does anyone out there know
anything more about this? Are they recording?

Chad



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:46:01 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Phantamos

>  I just read in a recent issue of Guitar World that
> Mike Patton has been collaborating with Dave
> Lombardo, King Buzzo and Trevor Dunn under the name
> Phantamos. It was only a short blurb and left many
> questions unanswered. Does anyone out there know
> anything more about this? Are they recording?

Apparently they were pretty indecisive about that name, and have settled on
Fantomas. If all the info I have is true, then the band was all Patton's
idea. He's written a bunch of material, kind of in the realm of Naked City
I suppose, with some "spooky" atmospherics as well. He got his ideas
together, then asked the other 3 whether they'd be interested. They said
yes, and I think they're doing some shows in NY and SF. If they record, it
will be some time next year, when the next Mr Bungle record has been taken
care of.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:02:08 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Another Downtown Question

At 10:20 PM 6/11/98, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 [e-mail] wrote:
>
>>      While I enjoy the President releases (and think they're an interesting
>>      precursor to Previte's recent fusion investigations), I think I hear
>>      at least part of what William was complaining about. Horvitz' electric
>>      piano-y sound does tend to impart a slickening quality
>
>I also found this very offputting on first exposure.  But over repeated
>listening I've found it makes a nice contrast with the edgier, subtler
>stuff usually going on in the background of President tracks.  The
>slickness of some of the keyboard sounds (along with Horvitz's
>straightforwardly lovely melodies) makes the edgy bits seem even
>creepier.
>
I think that one of Horvitz' great talents is as an arranger of electronic
sounds. It's a skill that a lot of keyboardists don't really understand,
especially with the great variety of sounds available on todays gear. I
think that one of the reasons Horvitz uses the "thin" dx-7 sounds so much
is that he can fit a lot of contrapuntal lines into an arrangement, and the
lines remain clear. If he were to use fatter sounds, they would compete
with each other. I personally like his sounds quite a bit, after spending
years programming the dx-7, I've come to really appreciate how subtle and
musical Horvitz' approach is. Plus, I think he writes some great tunes. I
saw him and Robin Holcomb do a duo show a few weeks ago, it was really
beautiful.

About Hancock's Sextant, yeah, it is a great record, but I wonder if its
"timelessness", as compared to Horvitz' records in an earlier message, is
simply that the synthesizer sounds Hancock and Patrick Gleeson used are
back in vogue, via the whole techno explosion and the renewed interest in
analog synthesis. Sometmes I think that the history we've personally
experienced seems dated, while the history previous to our experience.
Witness the current interest in almost all things '70's, while anything
from the '80's sounds dated. At this rate, in about 2008, there will be a
huge resurgence of interest in the downtown NYC scene. I hope all the
musicians can hold on until then...

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #392
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