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Zorn List Digest        Thursday, June 11 1998        Volume 02 : Number 391



In this issue:
-
       Re: Another Downtown Question
       Re: Horvitz, Zorn, E#, (drummer) quartet
       Need Help Tracking Down _Meridiem_
       Re: Another Downtown Question
       Re: Hancock's Sextant
       Robin Holcomb
       Re: Robin Holcomb
       Re: Another Downtown Question
       Re: Need Help Tracking Down _Meridiem_
       Re: Robin Holcomb
       Re: Re[2]: Another Downtown Question
       Re: Another Downtown Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:36:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Another Downtown Question

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Douglas Tapia wrote:

> I think we're all in agreement that every era has a signiture sound.  We're
> all influenced by changing socital values.  We either take some part of
> that and use it, or we react against it.  This forms the "sound of an era"
> Certainly, we are seeing a shift from lush, electronic synth textures to a
> newfound facination with acoustic based music.  Take the fairly recent
> renewed interest in country music, folk music, ethnic/world music, etc.
> Also look at the trend in jazz away from fusion to earthy, funky sounds ala
> MMW, Zony Mash, Henery Thredgill, etc.  Will we look back and say, "wow!
> that sounds really late '90s!"?  Almost surely.

well, your inquiry seems to be trying to get @ the heart of what makes
music age well.  i don't think you'll ever listen to masada records and
say "how 90's" any more than you would listen to the stooges and say "how
60's".  i think that varese's and xenakis' early electronic works sound
amazing all these decades later, yet some of the downtown music from the
knitting factory comps sounds real dated.  i think you have the essence of
the idea and that is that the artist needs a true musical voice (think how
great coltrane still sounds today) that isn't swayed by musical trends.
another example would be tom waits.  trends be damned, you can always tell
a tom waits song the instant you hear it.  technology fetishism rarely leads
to music that can stand the test of time.  my point was that hancock's
"sextant" holds up remarkably well regardless of the synths used, because
the music came first.  they didn't write around the technology and they
didn't haphazardly throw the coolest, newest technology on the record just
for commercial appeal.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:11:26 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Horvitz, Zorn, E#, (drummer) quartet

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:36:59 -0500  Dan Hewins wrote:
>
> Anybody know what label this disc will be released on and when? And who is
> the drummer, Previte or Wollesen?

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** - DOWNTOWN LULLABY: John Zorn, Elliott Sharp, Wayne Horvitz, Bobby Previte

    Recorded at Avatar Studios, New York on January 15, 1998

  John Zorn; Wayne Horvitz; Elliott Sharp; Bobby Previte.

    1998 - Depth Of Field (USA), DOF CD 2-2 (CD)

  Note: not released yet (planned for June 1998).

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Depth Of Field is Bobby's label.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:17:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Need Help Tracking Down _Meridiem_

Hello all,

    I could use some leads in my search
to track down the Laswell/Howard/Hayward/Frith: _Meridiem_ release which
the Materiali Sonori web page says has been released.  I did find one
all-Italian web site, but the lack of English translations would make
ordering a daunting task.

Thanks,

Paul
[e-mail]

  GROOVE
- ----------
One Nation



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:27:26 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Re: Another Downtown Question

>> I think we're all in agreement that every era has a signature sound.  We'=
re
>> all influenced by changing societal values.  We either take some part of
>> that and use it, or we react against it.  This forms the "sound of an era=
"
>> Certainly, we are seeing a shift from lush, electronic synth textures to =
a
>> newfound fascination with acoustic based music.  Take the fairly recent
>> renewed interest in country music, folk music, ethnic/world music, etc.
>> Also look at the trend in jazz away from fusion to earthy, funky sounds a=
la
>> MMW, Zony Mash, Henery Thredgill, etc.  Will we look back and say, "wow!
>> that sounds really late '90s!"?  Almost surely.
>
>well, your inquiry seems to be trying to get @ the heart of what makes
>music age well.  i don't think you'll ever listen to masada records and
>say "how 90's"

I did not mean to suggest that all music from an era will be immediately
identifiable with said era.  This is obviously not the case, and I know
that there are more exceptions to this gross generalization than I'd ever
want to take on.  That being said (and I cringe as I write this at the
thought of all the emails I may get telling me how wrong I am)  I think
that Masada is sort of a 90's phenomenon.  World music, cultural awareness,
harmolidic concept. . .  these are pretty 90's things.   Have you noticed
that everyone is getting rid of the piano lately (again) in favor of less
traditional harmonic instruments (or no harmonic instrument at all?)  This
has been with us for a long time, but it's becoming more present in the
music as of late.  Admittedly, Masada is definitely one of the--if not
THE--group at the forefront of this shift.

 any more than you would listen to the stooges and say "how
>60's".  i think that varese's and xenakis' early electronic works sound
>amazing all these decades later,

Oh yes, it's all amazing, but I get misty eyed when I hear Glenn Gould play
Bach. (Who, by the way, sounds very 18th century to me despite the fact
that nobody else working at the time could touch him)  Saying that
something is identifiable with an era does not preclude it being good.  All
really great music IS timeless, but that doesn't mean that I can't put a
date on it by listening.

 yet some of the downtown music from the
>knitting factory comps sounds real dated.

Absolutely!  I think this happens when people try to sound hip, try to
associate themselves with this particular camp or that instead of just
letting it be what it's going to be.  Real music is a mirror of our human
experience, or our experiences as humans, if you will.

  i think you have the essence of
>the idea and that is that the artist needs a true musical voice (think how
>great coltrane still sounds today) that isn't swayed by musical trends.

I speak not only of musical trends, but of cultural.  Yes, Trane was on a
different path, but my little mind will always equate him and that sound
with that era.  He helped to define it, surely, but it still could have
only happened in the 60s.  He wore 60's cloths, shopped at 60's stores, ate
60's food, was bombarded with 60's advertisements.  His music came from the
heart of his humanity, but his body was living in 1960s United States.  We
can't get away from that.  It was an era of civil right, ethnic awareness,
racial solidarity.  Trane still makes me cry because I feel the era, as
well as the man expressed in his music.  Is Trane dated and pass=E9?  I'll
punch anyone who says yes.  Can he be identified with an era?  Yeah, I
think he can.

>another example would be tom waits.  trends be damned, you can always tell
>a tom waits song the instant you hear it.  technology fetishism rarely lead=
s
>to music that can stand the test of time.  my point was that hancock's
>"sextant" holds up remarkably well regardless of the synths used, because
>the music came first.

I couldn't agree more.

they didn't write around the technology and they
>didn't haphazardly throw the coolest, newest technology on the record just
>for commercial appeal.

I don't think it was commercial appeal that Bill or Wayne were after
either.  I think they are just gear heads who were playing with some new
toys and their judgment was perhaps a little clouded by the newness of it
all.

- --Doug



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:16:26 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Hancock's Sextant

> > them into something even worse.  however, i just bought herbie hancock's
> > "sextant" (1973) and boy is that one ass-kicking record!  the band manage
> > an amalgamation of everything raw about free-jazz, electronics
> > experimentation and gut-bucket funk.  dated?  no way!
>
> Hum, you make me curious about that one (hey, I even love ROCKIT). I will
> definitely look for it.

 I really have to recommend Sextant. It's weird, funky, deep and intense.
 It was my first Hancock record and I loved it; I was 14 at the time I first
 heard it and used to listen to Iron Maiden, Helloween & Queen (well, I still do
 that sometimes). It blew me away.
 Please note that Bill Laswell took an obvious sample from "Rain Dance", the
 first track on Sextant, into Material's "Ghost Light/Dread Recall" (on the
 Axiom Dub CD). Acknowledging roots, I'd say.

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:13:17 -0600
From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Robin Holcomb

        BTW, any Robin Holcomb fans out there? I find some of her song-format
     works to be very beautiful, her lyrics refreshingly honest and, for
     that matter, I loved her 'classical' release, 'Little Three'. Anyone
     know what, if anything, she has planned for the near future?

Yes, I'm a huge Holcomb fan, although when I first got her 1st "song" disc
(self titled), it sure took me off guard. Naturally I expected more abstract
jazz. But those songs, Man, they just make me ache with emotion. I don't
know how she does it, or where any of this came from.

yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:24:04 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Robin Holcomb

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:13:17 -0600  dennis summers wrote:
>
>         BTW, any Robin Holcomb fans out there? I find some of her song-format
>      works to be very beautiful, her lyrics refreshingly honest and, for
>      that matter, I loved her 'classical' release, 'Little Three'. Anyone
>      know what, if anything, she has planned for the near future?
>
> Yes, I'm a huge Holcomb fan, although when I first got her 1st "song" disc
> (self titled), it sure took me off guard. Naturally I expected more abstract
> jazz. But those songs, Man, they just make me ache with emotion. I don't
> know how she does it, or where any of this came from.

You can add me also to the club. My initial interest came of course from the
connection with Wayne Horvitz. Then I discovered her first two records on Sound
Aspects and realized how a gifted composer she is (many of the songs are really
moving, and the playing is superb):

*** - TODOS SANTOS: Horvitz, Morris, and Previte play the music of Robin Holcomb
  1988 - Sound Aspects (Germany), SAS CD 019 (CD)
*** - LARKS, THEY CRAZY: Robin Holcomb
  1989 - Sound Aspects (Germany), sas CD 026 (CD)

Then she made her two song records, very different from the above. But the magic
worked again (haunting melodies). I am kind of sad that she did not get more
recognition from these two records.

LITTLE THREE did not do too much to me, but I did not really listen to it with
the attention it deserves (the music is not as directly appealing as on her
previous two song records). But I will.

To my knowledge, she has no other records planned.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:46:47 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Another Downtown Question

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:03:13 -0400 (EDT)  William York wrote:
>
> I sort of asked this one last week, but I'll try again, especially after
> finding The President "Bring Yr Camera" today for $2.99.  On first listen
> this sounds really dated, to me some of the sounds are a little hard
> to get through, but what I'm wanting to ask is: how do people feel that
> this music has held up (that of Sharp, Horvitz, Previte, Frisell, Zorn).

The Carbon records (Sharp) stood up time very well. They are beyond time
consideration and fashion.

> But what do people think of as classic recordings of the so-called
> downtown scene.  I would have to nominate Big Gundown, Spillane, Spy vs
> Spy, hmm maybe Tim Berne's "Fulton St. Maul", LAst Exit, then ...?  I'm
> sure Previte has something but I haven't heard those.  Frisell? Sharp?
> Arto? I guess

ENVY by Arto Linday and the Ambitious Lovers should be on the list! It
is a great mix of dancing music with an very special edge. One my
top records. See more below.

Previte's records are not really NY downtown, except for geographical,
logistic, and casting reasons. I see his records more like modern jazz,
with great emphasis on writing, and grooves.

> I'm thinking 1985-90 but perhaps the better stuff came before (Locus
> Solus, Golden Palominos? ?) Any comments would be appreciated.

LOCUS SOLUS is one, the first GOLDEN PALOMINOS another.

I would add (top of my head):

*** - KILLING TIME: Massacre
*** - MEMORY SERVES: Material
*** - BASELINES: Bill Laswell
*** - THE LOUNGE LIZARDS (???? - EG Records, EEGCD 8)
*** - TOCSIN: Elliott Sharp's Carbon
  (or DATASIDE)
*** - DENSE BAND: David Moss (1985 - Moers Music, 02076 CD)
*** - THIS NEW GENERATION: Wayne Horvitz
*** - GOOD AS GOLD: OWT (1989 - Homestead Records, HMS140-2)
  (this is David Linton and Zeena Parkins)
*** - WEATHER CLEAR, TRACK FAST: Bobby Previte (1991 - Enja Records, R2 79667)

> William York, a 22 yr old who asks more questions than most 4 yr olds

    Patrice.
> -
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:48:01 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Need Help Tracking Down _Meridiem_

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Audino <[e-mail]> writes:

    Paul>     I could use some leads in my search to track down the
    Paul> Laswell/Howard/Hayward/Frith: _Meridiem_ release which the
    Paul> Materiali Sonori web page says has been released.  I did
    Paul> find one all-Italian web site, but the lack of English
    Paul> translations would make ordering a daunting task.

I've had some success with other Materiali Sonori releases at
ab-cd.com.

- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:32:42 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Robin Holcomb

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> LITTLE THREE did not do too much to me, but I did not really listen to it with
> the attention it deserves (the music is not as directly appealing as on her
> previous two song records). But I will.

By all means, give it another go. Holcomb seems to me to be operating
out of a very deep, rich Americana vein, something that's been none too
fashionable for a long while (though Fahey _has_ made a nice comeback).
I found myself be reminded a lot of Samuel Barber while listening to the
extended piano pieces on 'Little Three' and, from me, that's high
praise. There's a beguiling quality of wistfulness/strength/melancholy
in much of her stuff that I love. There's also, in her songs, a loving
and deep appreciation for the lives of those living outside of the hip
centers of the universe. The lyrics to 'So Straight and Slow' just floor
me with their love of the poetry of everyday life and the sympathy that
allows her to simply state (and encapsulate, with understanding, a small
segment of American culture):

    A deer struck down by a car
    Brings two cows in trade.

Amazing line; sung, perhaps, with melancholy but not horror or derision.
That song and 'Deliver Me', both from the self-titled Elektra album, are
killer.

> To my knowledge, she has no other records planned.

Arggh.

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:20:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Another Downtown Question

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

>      While I enjoy the President releases (and think they're an interesting
>      precursor to Previte's recent fusion investigations), I think I hear
>      at least part of what William was complaining about. Horvitz' electric
>      piano-y sound does tend to impart a slickening quality

I also found this very offputting on first exposure.  But over repeated
listening I've found it makes a nice contrast with the edgier, subtler
stuff usually going on in the background of President tracks.  The
slickness of some of the keyboard sounds (along with Horvitz's
straightforwardly lovely melodies) makes the edgy bits seem even
creepier.

>      A number of other records from the
>      downtown folk at the time (off-hand, I'm thinking of Moss', Tacuma's,
>      Arto's, etc) utilized a drum machine sound that I'm sure was the cat's
>      meow then, but quickly (in fact, instantly) sounded horribly thin and
>      shallow.

Man, I love that drum machine sound!  I think what I like about a lot of
the work that came out of this scene in the early to mid-80's is in part
the sense that a lot is being accomplished with limited technical means,
both in terms of the equipment (e.g. cheap sounding drum machines, even
much of Horvitz's gear in comparison to the kind of keyboards typical for
pop and fusion of the day) and the skill level of some of the players.
While there were certainly some virtuosic players on the scene then, those
records seem to be littered with players (Arto being the most obvious
example) with a much lower standard of technique than you find on the
"downtown" scene today.
     I actually think these factors helped the music
in a couple of ways:  They kept it for ever falling into mere
displays of instrumental facility, and they forced the players to develop
interesting contexts in which these limited resources could shine.  While
there are obviously still great records being made by people in New York,
it seems to me that these particular virtues are in shorter supply now
then they were 15 years ago.
     But maybe I'm falling into the trap of only
looking at highlights of the past.

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:30:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Another Downtown Question

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, William York wrote:

> It
> also seems like there is much less of a buzz over the Knitting Factory and
> a lot of these musicians.  Partly that has to do with many of them
> starting their own labels and not being on Nonesuch, I don't know.

I'd suggest two other reasons:  Some of the figures most prominently
associated with the "downtown" tag (Frisell, Horvitz) have moved away from
New York.  And with the Texaco Jazz Festival, the Knit seems (at least
from my perspective in Pittsburgh) to have pretty much become the dominant
jazz club.  (I realize the Vanguard and others still get more tourist
trade, but they don't seem to book many non-ancient musicians.)  It can't
be hip anymore if it defines the mainstream.

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #391
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