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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #388
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, June 10 1998 Volume 02 : Number 388
In this issue:
-
Re: intellectualism (longish)
Can
Re: Can
Personal to David Newgarden
Re: Can
Can
Re: Can
Karl Berger Info, Please
Re: Karl Berger Info, Please
Unjustified Karl Berger opinions
Re: Can
Frisell
Kronos, again/Africa
Re: Kronos, again/Africa
Re: Can
Re: Kronos, again/Africa
The Zorn list
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 16:21:29 +0200
From: Fritz Feger <ffeger@gwdg.de>
Subject: Re: intellectualism (longish)
<paraindent><param>left</param>Sean says:
The point of view that: to hear a melody as a melody, is already an
intellectual viewpoint needs to be spelt out ... do you mean "to pick out
the melody, and call it a melody? or would just humming the melody do?
[...] this view seems more Kantian to me: that to perceive anything is to
categorise it.
</paraindent>
At first I want to put the conceptual framework a little different. The
talk of an "intellectual viewpoint" seems misleading concerning the
approach I want to advocate; I'd rather speak of mental activity, reason
vs. emotion and of concepts and consciousness.=20
Right, I think that sensual perception has to be followed by some sort of
conceptualization (rather than categorization, since this sounds like
sorting everything into an existing shoecase). As Brian already pointed
out, to have any kind of mental representation of music or, to keep the
example, a melody, you have to mentally structure your sensual
experience. And this is corresponds with the recognition of "known"
patterns (they may be quite unconscious) and the construction of new, own
conceptions, in whatever proportions. All this is a mental activity,
where the power of reason is essential, and in that way it is an
intellectual activity. Pure reasoning won't do the job, because it is
only capable of categorizations and logical conclusions and can't lead to
NEW concepts. This developement of a concept of a heard melody is not
necessarily a conscious process, but it can be watched by the
consciousness. It is this concept of the melody, that we appreciate, the
mental image or, if you will, model of a sequence of frequencies and
amplitudes of pressure waves.
The original question of intellectual music appreciation can now be
reconstructed as the question of 1) how much conscious self-investigation
and 2) how much theoretical knowledge is put into the reception.
<paraindent><param>left</param>Brian said:
I could even more eccentricly imagine that one could, with infinite
practice and extraordinary brainpower, learn to read these equations,
mentally coalesce them and appreciate them just as if one had "heard"
them.
</paraindent>
I don't find this idea too eccentric ;-), since this is exactly what you
do when you read music from scores or harmonic symbols. There are
conductors with extraordinary brainpower that read symphonies with dozens
of instruments and "hear" it... The only difference to your example is
that the musical notation is more operational than mathematic
representations of the physics of music.
<paraindent><param>left</param>Brian said:
Those with mystical notions would dispute this and, generally, shudder at
the thought of a deeper analysis of art, fearing that we will loose the
"mystery".
</paraindent>I think Joseph is right when he defends "rigorous schools of
mystical thought" of beeing anti- or non-analytical in a certain sense,
but he's wrong in another. If you understand "analysis" as exact
research, as rigorous thinking, then there are for sure lots of people
with a mystical notion of art which fulfill the highest expectations. But
analysis literally means decomposition, reduction on the elements, and
that seems to be a contradiction to the mysical thinking in "Gestalten",
in irreducible wholes. To me, the crucial point seems to be the
difficulties in the acceptance of emotion, unconscious mental processes,
"Gestalthaftigkeit" and so on as constitutive for art in some radically
analytic aesthetic models, and the denial of radical mysticism to make
use of apparently sucessful reasoning.=20
My personal experience: neither a theoretic approach nor conscious
introspection is capable of destroying the beauty or the mystery of
music; rather it often deepens the love in a marriage of reasonable
emotion... So don't be afraid *grin*! What can destroy the mystery is to
miss the right point to put a record back to the board and leave it there
for a while.
My 2 Pfennig (currently about 1.2 Cent; not too much)
Fritz
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:36:37 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Can
I have to add a few more fringe records:
Unlimited Edition has some really good grooves on it.
Soundtracks is good mostly all the way through.
And the one right after Soon, which I can't remember the title of, but it has
Hunters & Gatherers and Vernal Equinox on it is a great record, but further in
the well-produced vein.
After that, it pretty much blows, although I have another later disc that has
Smoke and Babylonian Pearl which are two good tunes. But the rest of the disc
sucks.
Add to that Monster Movie, Tago Mago, Ege Bamyasi and Future Days and you've got
the important ones, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not really a fan of Delay 1968, as it sounds way to rockish and ungroovy.
Very raw. At least that's what I remember. My friend really likes it though,
so, as always, your mileage may vary.
PeterR
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:03:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Saidel Eric J <ejs4839@usl.edu>
Subject: Re: Can
Peter Risser:
> And the one right after Soon, which I can't remember the title of, but it has
> Hunters & Gatherers and Vernal Equinox on it is a great record, but further in
> the well-produced vein.
Landed. I've been waiting for someone to mention this. This is one of my
favorites, Can doing something like good old american rock and roll.
Brent Burton mentioned Ege Bamyasi, another favorite of mine, for
the same reason, its polyrythmic drive. I just wanted to second that.
> After that, it pretty much blows, although I have another later disc that has
> Smoke and Babylonian Pearl which are two good tunes. But the rest of the disc
> sucks.
Flow Motion. I don't think this disc sucks. In fact, with the possible
exception of their last real disc, Rite Time, everything of theirs that I've
heard (and I've heard pretty much everything, and listen to it too much to
say) is really really good. Even Rite Time has some passable tracks:
Below This Level (Patient's Song) has that old Can feeling.
Also worth checking out are Holger's solo albums. I really like The
East is Red, and On The Way to the Peak of Normal. Okay, include Rome
Remains Rome and Movies.
- - eric
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:56:19 -0700
From: "Dave" <torturegarden@mailexcite.com>
Subject: Personal to David Newgarden
Sorry to waste bandwidth, but David Newgarden if you are reading this - have you shippped my Torturegarden LP yet? I lost your e-mail address.
Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 13:04:20 -0400
From: Circle9 <caliban@ctol.net>
Subject: Re: Can
Not exactly Can, but close... Does anyone know have access to the
soundtrack to Wim Wenders' "Kings of the Road"- Axel Linstadst I believe
was the composer. It was very reminiscient of Can in certain moments.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:48:33 -0600
From: dennis summers <denniss@ic.net>
Subject: Can
Steve Smith: It's nice to know that you haven't already listened to every
great band out there. It gives some hope to us slackers. I have to second
(third, fourth) the ealier posters on their Can recommendations. I think
Tago Mago is the classic, but I, like one of the others, lean toward their
first couple of releases for that "proto-punk" energy. However, on a Can
related note, if you can find them check out Holger Czukay's solo releases,
in particular Movies and On The Way To The Peak of Normal. Both highly
idiosyncratic, and thouroughly enjoyable. Also I have greatly enjoyed any of
the Jah Wobble/Czukay collaborations, which can often be found used.
I've been having a problem keeping up with the digests lately, so I may have
missed this conversation. But my vote on Weird Little Boy was a thumbs down.
It just didn't seem to go anywhere, IMO.
yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:26:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Wiry and Wired <wiry_and_wired@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Can
- ---Saidel Eric J <ejs4839@usl.edu> wrote:
> Landed.
> Flow Motion.
> Even Rite Time has some passable tracks:
> Also worth checking out are Holger's solo albums. I really like The
> East is Red, and On The Way to the Peak of Normal. Okay, include Rome
> Remains Rome and Movies.
Eric, I'm with you on all these (especially Der Osten Ist Rot & Peak
of Normal) but would warn people to save the later Czukay discs (the
names of which escape me) & Can's Saw Delight for their very last
completist purchases because I can't hear anything on these to enjoy.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:34:38 PDT
From: "Silent Watcher" <silent_watcher@hotmail.com>
Subject: Karl Berger Info, Please
Hello all,
I was wondering if anyone on this list could give me opinions on any
Karl Berger albums (preferably something that's available in the US). I
really like the string arrangements he's done on various Laswell albums.
Now I'm curious to hear if his own work is any good. I was actually
looking specifically at purchasing "Conversations", as it features James
Blood Ulmer and Mark Feldman also. Thanks for any help.
Peace,
SW
For Sale/Want list and Bill Laswell Discography at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:59:34 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: Re: Karl Berger Info, Please
Silent Watcher wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if anyone on this list could give me opinions on any
> Karl Berger albums (preferably something that's available in the US). I
> really like the string arrangements he's done on various Laswell albums.
> Now I'm curious to hear if his own work is any good.
Though I'm not sure how available it is nowadays, I've always been a big
fan of his duet with Dave Holland on Sackville, 'All Kinds of Time'.
Also well worth hearing, for Berger and everyone else on it, is Don
Cherry's 'Eternal Rhythm', a classic recently reissued on disc. Amazing
stuff.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:25:18 -0400
From: Jeff Schwartz <jeffs@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
Subject: Unjustified Karl Berger opinions
I believe Berger is on Don Cherry's Blue Note albums,
which I think rule (and have been reissued in those
annoying limited editions). All Kinds of Time is
wonderful, Conversations OK.
- --
Jeff Schwartz
jeffs@bgnet.bgsu.edu
http://www.bgsu.edu/~jeffs/main.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:45:25 -0400
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Can
dennis summers wrote:
> Steve Smith: It's nice to know that you haven't already listened to every
> great band out there. It gives some hope to us slackers.
Oh goodness, Dennis, there are lots of great artists and bands I've not gotten
around to yet. (Would you believe I've never heard the Pop Group or anything by
Adrian Sherwood?) That's one of the reasons I read The Wire from cover to cover
as soon as I get it... yes, I even take notes, like a dork, and carry them to
the store with me.
It's also the best reason for being on the Zornlist. Thanks for your input re:
Can, and thanks to everyone who chimed in on Parliament-Funkadelic. Five CDs
and a fine 3 hour show later (short by Funk Mob standards, I understand), I feel
enriched, enhanced, funked up. No Bootsy and no Bernie, but Clinton himself was
in rare form and Blackbyrd McKnight tore shit up, as did that female guitarist
from the David Letterman show (Felicia something?) who sat in for a few tunes.
And whoever it was that sang "Bop Gun" sounded just like Glen Goins but looked
to young to be him. "One Nation Under a Groove" was anemic but pretty much
everything else rocked.
Patrice Roussel, on the other hand, has heard every great band out there, and
charted its discography in minute detail as well... ;-)
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - King Crimson - "The Lurking Fear" (bootleg, July '69)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:13:53 +0000
From: Dwight Haden <dhaden@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Frisell
Bill Frisell is performing in Chapel Hill on July 18th. Anybody know
who is in his touring band this time?
Dwight Haden === dhaden@worldnet.att.net
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 11:32:14 -0300
From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar
Subject: Kronos, again/Africa
>i'like to thank the person who recommended "Pieces of Africa" to me.
You4re welcome.
I also like a lot eastern/african groups; is there any recommendation on
this kind of music?
- -Hugo, from Argentina
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:25:10 +0300 (WET)
From: Vadim Marmer <msvadi@olive.mscc.huji.ac.il>
Subject: Re: Kronos, again/Africa
> I also like a lot eastern/african groups; is there any recommendation on
> this kind of music?
few years ago i liked to listen to two Garbarek`s Albums "Madar" and
"Sagas and Ragas" (i hope i spell it correctly), now i`m a little bit
disappointed of Garbarek, but in any way, i think these two are good
examples of jazz-world music.
i also like very much Philip Glass`s album with Ravi Shankar "Passages",
this one, i think, is more close to what Kronos did on "Pieces of Africa".
and talking about Shankar, the last double CD compilation released on EMI
(classics) is just excellent. it includes pieces he recorded with Menuhin,
concerts for Sitar and Orchestra. i can send details if anybody is
interested.
and for the end, my favorite Shankar`s album is "Inside the Kremlin", very
beautiful record.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:41:07 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Can
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:45:25 -0400 Steve Smith wrote:
>
> dennis summers wrote:
>
> > Steve Smith: It's nice to know that you haven't already listened to every
> > great band out there. It gives some hope to us slackers.
>
> Oh goodness, Dennis, there are lots of great artists and bands I've not gotten
> around to yet. (Would you believe I've never heard the Pop Group or anything by
> Adrian Sherwood?) That's one of the reasons I read The Wire from cover to cover
> as soon as I get it... yes, I even take notes, like a dork, and carry them to
> the store with me.
Dont' worry, you are not the only one :-).
> It's also the best reason for being on the Zornlist. Thanks for your input re:
> Can, and thanks to everyone who chimed in on Parliament-Funkadelic. Five CDs
> and a fine 3 hour show later (short by Funk Mob standards, I understand), I feel
> enriched, enhanced, funked up. No Bootsy and no Bernie, but Clinton himself was
> in rare form and Blackbyrd McKnight tore shit up, as did that female guitarist
> from the David Letterman show (Felicia something?) who sat in for a few tunes.
> And whoever it was that sang "Bop Gun" sounded just like Glen Goins but looked
> to young to be him. "One Nation Under a Groove" was anemic but pretty much
> everything else rocked.
>
> Patrice Roussel, on the other hand, has heard every great band out there, and
> charted its discography in minute detail as well... ;-)
I don't know where you got this impression. It would be far easier (and much
shorter) for me to say what I know instead of what I don't know :-).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 14:11:47 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Re: Kronos, again/Africa
I also like a lot eastern/african groups; is there any recommendation on
this kind of music?
- -Hugo, from Argentina
Where to start? In general, I find I mentally divide "world music"
(for extreme lack of a better, non-Westernized term) into two
categories: traditional and pop. In the former group, it's tough to go
wrong. For example, I could do a blind pick from the traditional Iran
section of my local record mart and end up with something likely to be
quite beautiful. As you veer towards the pop end of the spectrum, it's
necessary to exercise a great deal of judgment; there's as much dross
there as anywhere else, and there's nothing quite so horrible as, say,
a Senegalese Billy Joel. Feh. (I better watch out--that could be JZ's
next Great Jewish Music project after Bolan/Feld!)
Anyway, some of my favorites from various African/Middle-East genres:
Dumisani Maraire The African Mbira Nonesuch
(Various) Night Spirit Masters Axiom
Muhamed Abdel Wahab Music of Muhamed Abdel Wahab Axiom (?)
Master Musicians Jojouka Apocalypse Across the Sky Axiom
Toure Kunda Live Paris-Ziguinchor Celluloid
Maleem Mahmoud Ghania The Trance of Seven Colors Axiom
(Various) Master Drummers of Dagbon (?)
Toumani Diabate Kaira Hannibal
D'Gary Malagasy Guitar Shanachie
Master Musicians Joujouka Joujouka Black Eyes Axiom
Faramarz Payvar Iran-Persian Classics Nonesuch
(Various) Music from the World of Islam (?)
D'Gary/Mahaleo The Long Way Home Shanachie
Dama Mahaleo Songs of Madagascar (?)
Tarika Sammy Fanafody Xenophile
(By the way, if there's a finer singer around than Dama Mahaleo, I'd
like to hear him!)
There, that's a start. As impossible as it is to keep up with all the
worthwhile releases in the jazz/improv/contemporary fields, I actually
find myself hesitating to visit the world area of, say, Tower, as I'm
sure I'd have no trouble (aside from monetary) of getting several
hundred fine recordings. Ah well...
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:38:01 EDT
From: <TagYrIt@aol.com>
Subject: The Zorn list
In a message dated 98-06-10 13:43:51 EDT, you write:
<< Oh goodness, Dennis, there are lots of great artists and bands I've not
gotten
> around to yet. >>
"yes, I even take notes, like a dork, and carry them to
> the store with me."
> It's also the best reason for being on the Zornlist.
I really just have to add me opinion here and concur with all of the above.
While I may not agree with some of what's been posted here, the music I've
been introduced to and subsequently infatuated with from the posts to this
list far outweigh the instances where I've been disappointed. Many of you have
been a great influence on my CD purchases, and I'd just like to offer a
general "thanks" for the generally intelligent discussions I've seen.
Dale.
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #388
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