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Zorn List Digest        Wednesday, May 13 1998        Volume 02 : Number 369



In this issue:
-
       Re: [none] but the world is 1
       Re: [none] but the world is 1
       Re: Babbitt and baseball
       Re: Content in music
       reissue john zorn
       Re: [none] but the world is 1
       Re: Leibniz
       Re: [none] but the world is 1
       Re: "higher than the world norm"
       Re: [none] but the world is 1
       Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
       Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
       resoundings?
       Re: Baseball
       Re: [none] but the world is 1
       Painkiller live
       Re: Painkiller live
       re: Sharp

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:13:20 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1

Benjamin Pequet wrote:

> He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.

This reminds me: I recently got a Nijiumu (sp?) CD, and was quite taken
with Keiji Haino's singing. Are there other releases that focus on that,
rather than his instrumental work?

> 3. Who are Ayn Rand and Pete Seeger ?

Pete Seeger is one of the key figures in American folk music. Both alone
and with his group The Weavers he did a lot to popularize folk, as well
as writing many memorable songs of his own. He has also been quite
active politically in areas such as the environment, union organizing,
and civil rights.

Ayn Rand was a novelist and, according to some, a philosopher. I leave
it to anyone who thinks she was competent in either field to say more.

- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:24:40 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1

On Tue, 12 May 1998 23:03:51 +0200, Benjamin Pequet wrote:
> 2. I'm listening to a to me enigmatic volume 2 of Keiji Haino/Loren
> MazzaCane Connors cd. There is no comment or anything on the cover or on
> the disc. I didn't see a volume 1 yet but I'm sure soon. But I suspect
> there could be no more comment on it. Who is Loren MazzaCane Connors ?
> He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.

   There is a brief biography at the RoadCone website:

http://www.teleport.com/~roadcone/MazzaCane.html

It's hard to find information about him.  I get the impression that
there is no "Volume 1" as such, but there is an album documenting an
earlier performance of Haino with Connors.  Someone on this list
mentioned that Haino seems to somewhat imitate the people he plays
with (on the Connors duet, the Derek Bailey duet, etc.) but I can't
back that up with my own observations.

   Bouncing back to an earlier topic, I purchased "Consume Red" on
Monday.  Grueling.  The last ten minutes were a chore, but I made it
through to the end and seem to be unharmed.  I also got a Sun City
Girls CD, which was more immediately enjoyable.  Whatever that's worth.


- -- Charles



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:43:29 -0500
From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Babbitt and baseball

>
>Milton Babbitt is a huge baseball fan. His piece "Around the Horn", as
>well as some others, are based on aspects of the game. (Amusingly, the
>speakers giving excruciatingly detailed analyses of the piece at the
>recent Babbitt symposium at the Library of Congress never spotted this,
>and, as Babbitt told us in his closing remarks, gave completely erroneous
>analyses... which I guess show us again that a complicsted enough system
>of analysis can make anything appear to fit its mold (hence, also, the
>Bible Code).)
>
>Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
>are also very into baseball...
>
> -
>- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
>|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
>||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
>|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
>
>


Babbitt has written an excellent piece for saxophone titled "Whirled Series."

Eric

P.S.  It's hard as nails, if any of you saxophonists out there would like
to give it a shot.

- --------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
- --------------------------
Black holes are where God divided by zero.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:56:05 -0500
From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Content in music

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:04:04 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Socio-political composition
>
>On Tue, 12 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:
>
>> The sounds themselves do not
>> carry political content --
>
>The sounds themselves don't carry any content at all.
>
><Reasonable argument that socio-political content depends on the
>listener's background snipped>
>
>> What I'm getting at is that it's pretty silly to judge music based on its
>> socio-political content (except as a purely personal judgement)
>
>Which is to say music shouldn't be judged on its content?  (I'm not saying
>that all content is socio-political, just that the things you say about
>socio-political content are true of every other kind as well.)
>
>Chris Hamilton
>

That's a really excellent point -- I guess that I should have carried my
statement through to its conclusion, which is that each person has to judge
for him- or herself (since reactive content of all types is relative to the
listener).

I don't agree, though that the sounds do not carry any content at all.
There are all the (simple or complex) relationships between acoustics,
rhythm, pacing, and the like which actually exist in the real, physical
world.  Granted that psychological interpretation of those parameters may
change from person to person, I think that there ARE deterministic
statements that can be made about music (i.e. "a sound occurred and it
lasted for 5 seconds").  In the sense, then, that content is transmitted
information, I have to say that music can deliver unencumbered content.

I do not believe that there is anyone who can listen to music solely on the
basis of this sort of content, though, so it's purely sophistry on my part
to bring it up.  :)

Eric

- --------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
- --------------------------
Black holes are where God divided by zero.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:08:55 +0200
From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: reissue john zorn

Dear Zornies,

A few days ago I bought the new reissue of the 1982 celluloid album
'Yankees' by Derek Bailey, George Lewis and John Zorn.

Anyway, for those who like the duck call, the games pieces and other
stuff.... check this album out...

The label is Charly (german label) and the product number is cdgr221

See ya
- --
Stefan Verstraeten

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:53:16 -0500
From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1

> 2. I'm listening to a to me enigmatic volume 2 of Keiji Haino/Loren
> MazzaCane Connors cd. There is no comment or anything on the cover or on
> the disc. I didn't see a volume 1 yet but I'm sure soon. But I suspect
> there could be no more comment on it.


For the best listing of Haino's output go to Dave Keffer's site at:

http://www.planetc.com/users/keffer/haino/index.html


Information on volume 1 of Haino/Conners can be found there.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:37:39 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Leibniz

"... further, even the pleasures of the senses reduce to intellectual
pleasures known confusedly.

"Music charms us, even though its beauty consists only in the
harmonies of numbers and in a calculation that we are not aware of,
but which the soul nevertheless carries out, a calculation concerning
the beats or vibrations of sounding bodies, which are encountered at
certain intervals.  The pleasures that sight finds in proportions are
of the same nature, and those caused by the other senses amount to
something similar, even though we might not be able to explain it so
distinctly"

- - Leibniz, Principles of Nature and Grace, #17

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 04:05:01 -0500
From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1

At 12:13 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>This reminds me: I recently got a Nijiumu (sp?) CD, and was quite taken
>with Keiji Haino's singing. Are there other releases that focus on that,
>rather than his instrumental work?
>

A Challenge to Fate has some interesting vocals on it, although I still
have trouble with the three "Blackness" songs.  Also, try his
collaborations with Peter Brotzmann (Evolving Blush or Driving Original
Sin) and Alan Licht (Gerry Miles).  Also the group Black Stage has some
great vocal stuff in it as well.

Most of his solo stuff and a lot of the Fushitsusha stuff will have a large
amount of vocals, although as you said he tends to have a lot of long
instrumental sections.

For more info on albums and labels check out Dave Keffer's site:

http://www.planetc.com/users/keffer/haino/index.html





- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:09:09 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "higher than the world norm"

My understanding is that over half the population of the planet have
never made a telephone call.  I call this fact to mind whenever I
hear shit about the internet being the ultimate democratisation of
information ...

Absolutely unrelated, but: has anyone been keeping up with David
Murray's releases in the past few years?  Any comments on, in
particular, the one with Ray Anderson, and the Quartet follow-up to
"Aunt Louise"?

In response to "who are...?": Ayn Rand was a woman who articulated a
kind of crazy individualism, backed up by some extremely ropey
middle-brow philosophical porridge: she was a big influence on Steve
Ditko, leading him to cram the panels of "The Question" and,
even moreso, "Mr.A", with overwordy sermons about theories of
objectivity (Alan Moore's take on this, however, was inspired).

Pete Seeger wrote or popularised some of the finest songs of the 20th
century, tho' personally i favour Woody Guthrie.  Seeger was on the
right side, and was clear about what side he was on (neither of these
things are true of Rand).

Sean Wilkie


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:40:44 +0200
From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1

>> He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.
>
>This reminds me: I recently got a Nijiumu (sp?) CD, and was quite taken
>with Keiji Haino's singing. Are there other releases that focus on that,
>rather than his instrumental work?

Other releases that focus on the voice in the way of Nijiumu I don't know.
But there are a lot of Keiji Hainos ! Right now I think of the Andy Haas
thing called Arnhem Land. Also I recently listened to Keiji Haino and Peter
Br=F6tzmann duets.=20
The way I see it, things changed for Keiji Haino at the moment of Tenshi No
Gijinka, where my feeling is that he swallowed his guitar.=20

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:15:10 -0400
From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)

>Like the claim of 'Hype.'  I'll grant that, but it's also a subjective
>measure.  Marc says the Beethoven 9th is hyped, I say it's a great piece
>of music.

I also think the 9th is a great piece of music.

>We can both be right, but to only say it's 'hyped' sounds
>pejorative.

Quite true.  It does sound perjorative.  But nonetheless, it's hyped.

>Somethings can be hyped because they're worth it, other
>things can be hyped when they're not worth it at all.

This is why the question, originally asked by Jeff, is complicated.
Without, I hope (I REALLY hope), rekindling the politics/economics
misunderstanding, I wonder who determines 'worth'.  It's one of those
nebulous terms like "good" and "quality".  These terms only operate
successfully within a very subjective frame of reference, which I suspect
is why we all witnessed an extremely lengthy argument between two people
who couldn't match definitions of key terms.  Maybe 'worth' is an economic
term, maybe it's an artistic one (supposing the two can be separated).
From you, George, I suspect it's an artistic one.

>I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
>here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
>the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
>reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that.

I haven't read any reductive or deterministic viewpoints.

Marc



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:35:05 UT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)

<<
This is why the question, originally asked by Jeff, is complicated.
Without, I hope (I REALLY hope), rekindling the politics/economics
misunderstanding, I wonder who determines 'worth'.  It's one of those
nebulous terms like "good" and "quality".  These terms only operate
successfully within a very subjective frame of reference.
>>

I maintain that "worth" is defined solely by the consumer, and I don't mean that
in just an economic sense, but also in an artistic sense.

My childrens' paintings have great worth to me, and virtually none to anyone
else.

This doesn't mean that a subset of people can't get come to some agreement on
what some of their common interests are worth.  For example, there are people
who would gladly pay hundreds of dollars for particular Beanie Babies, which
most of the sentient world thinks is an insane gesture (I hope).  Me, I think
Beanie Babies are worthless, except maybe as an investment.  Thus, the worth of
the object is only what a person confers on it.

Hype has the effect of convincing people affected by it of something's worth.
Most everyone schooled in the Western European tradition agrees that the 9th is
worth something, so for those who agree, it is, but if you hate Beethoven or
symphonies or choral music, or maybe you're some sort of "wild savage" in a
non-western country, it's worthless.

Whereas, the Cynical Hysterie Hour or John Oswald's Plunderphonics are very
important to me (and probably others on the list) and are thus "worth" a great
deal, both artistically and economically, to me, whereas to my wife, they're
mostly noise and are worthless (except, of course, they have worth to her,
because they have worth to me, yada yada yada).

Anyway, that's the way I've been thinking recently.
Which makes the why so difficult.  We all have different why's.

PeterR

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:52:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: resoundings?

could someone repost the line-up and dates for this festival in atlanta.
i'd greatly appreciate it.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:14:29 -0800
From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball

Ken Waxman writes:

> Sure, if I liked Schuman. But what about you? What if you found out that
> someone you admire, Zorn, let's say, absolutely hated baseball? Would
> that downgrade his music in your estimation?

You don't like Schuman?  Well, you had better get started.

If I found out that a musician absolutely hated baseball, I would see
that as a grave moral/spiritual deficiency, and would try to listen very
hard to hear how their music expressed that personal fault, as well as
to perhaps hear the root cause of the fault.  Were they, as a child, a
Dodger fan who witnessed the Shot Heard Round the World, thereby
embittering them forever?  Are baseball prices too high for them to
attend games, creating seething feelings of victimization by class
warfare and economic injustice?  These are obviously vital
considerations.

gg

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:32:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1

    Pete Seeger and Ayn Rand were just being used for examples. To
make things very, very simple (and I know people will jump on me for
this), Seeger is a representative of the left wing and Rand a rightist.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:52:25 PDT
From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Painkiller live

Hi all Zornophiles,

If you can't make it to the Victo festival, here's some interesting
news: Painkiller will be playing at the Montreal Jazz Festival this
summer, on July 8th.  Tickets are already on sale.  I've got my front
row seats (and earplugs!!) :)  Not in a hundred years did I expect
PAINKILLER to play in Montreal.  I wasn't even sure these guys were
still together!

Also, Cecil Taylor will be doing two nights, one solo and the other trio
(with bass and drums, but I haven't seen any particular names). Pharoah
Sanders also does one night.

On a completely different note, has anyobody heard of the next Blind
Idiot God release, since it's been mentionned here on the list as
possibly being called "Rock" and to be released on Avant on May 19th?
Was that just a rumour?

Finally can anybody recommend the following Peter Brotzmann discs: "The
Dried Rat-Dog" and "Daredevil"?

Thanks
Bruno

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:30:03 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Painkiller live

>>>>> "Bruno" == Bruno Bissonnette <[e-mail]> writes:

    Bruno> Finally can anybody recommend the following Peter Brotzmann
    Bruno> discs: "The Dried Rat-Dog" and "Daredevil"?

Yes, I'll recommend Dried Rat-Dog, a duet between Brotzmann and Hamid
Drake on percussions.  Excellent sound, plenty of room for the two of
them to spread out, and lots of interesting details (meaning it's not
a huge blow-fest like Machine Gun or Last Exit, but there are quiet
parts too).

- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 04:05:10 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Al T)
Subject: re: Sharp

quoting George--

Allow me to qualify first; the means of writing a piece are determined
by a composer, the means of making the sound of that music is another
thing.  Our lives to begin with are deeply and irretrievably entangled
in economics, and music is made out of the grist of people's lives.
That entanglement is so intrinsic, however, that it it is no argument at
all to say that all music is economic, it's a tautology.  Might as well
say our lives our deeply entangled in eating and breathing and shitting
and that therefore music is as well.  In fact, that is my personal view;
I know my music is informed by eating and breathing and shitting becuase
I want it to be, I don't want it to be informed by the economics of my
life

end quote

Geez I tried my best to stay out of it but I was thinking in terms of the
breathing analogy myself, so forgive me please...I am weak.

Okay, first, logic cop here: Tautologies, in the sense that you are using the
term here are not meaningless. "Mammals ares mammals" is a meaninglessness
tautology. "Mammals need air" is not. If it is obvious that politics, music, and
economics are deeply entertwined (which you admit) why bother to argue that it
isn't which is how you're coming accross. What's you're stake in denying the
obvious.

Take breathing...you do *not* as you claim get to choose in any absolute sense
whether or not your music is informed by breathing. Do music without breathing
for oh, say, 25 minutes and have your heirs let me know how it comes out.

You can, of course, choose how you want to work with the various aspects of
breathing in your composition...or delegate the breathing stuff to background
and not really worry about it at all...

...provided no one has a boot on your air hose.

The thing that send up red flags for me about the argument that this or that is
somehow outside or above politics is that this argument is generally the first
refuge of folks who do tend to have their boot on somebody's air hose and
pretend that voices of resistence, or of the marginalized, of the suffering, or
of the just plain offbeat are, in fact, simply inferior voices and that their
exclusion is simply a matter of quality control.

I get the sense that you are defending your right to make your music in the
terms it presents itself to you using an argument that, looked at in terms of
historically probabilities, has a greater chance of ending up used against you.

Perhaps it would be expedient to choose to involve yourself in politics just
long enough to get a better argument that does the same job<g>.

I'm reading the digest so apologies if I'm off the beat.

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #369
*******************************


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