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v02.n368
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1998-05-12
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #368
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, May 12 1998 Volume 02 : Number 368
In this issue:
-
Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #366
Re: Baseball
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Re: Baseball
Re: Baseball
What makes jewish music?
Discographys
Re: steve zorn
Re: Baseball
Re: Baseball
Re: Baseball
More Roscoe Mitchell in NYC
Re: [none] but the world is 1
Re: decomposition & reconstruction (was: Socio-political)
VISION ONE ltd. COMPILATION (fwd)
Re: Socio-political composition
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:29:11 EDT
From: DJaySteve <DJaySteve@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #366
In a message dated 5/12/98 12:15:28 PM EDT, owner-zorn-list-
digest@lists.xmission.com writes:
> Steve Zorn on drums,
I once saw zorn at the Village Gate in an early hardorepunk project. The
drummer was zorns cousin and at the time, early/mid 1980s, he was about 13
years old, and one of John Zorns punk influences. Maybe Steve Zorn?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:31:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of which musician
*likes* baseball (or hockey or chess or etc.). It's a question of how
that interest affected his or her music. I personally abhor all sports in
general, but that doesn't mean that I ignore Albert Ayler's playing
because he was a good golfer or Cecil Taylor's because he played
basketball in high school.
As I said let's talk about sports influence on art. Right now, in
fact, David Murray, DD Jackson, Taj Mahal and, I think, another writer
are working on a musical based on the Negro League of the 1940s. That's
something I would go see, though you couldn't pay me (well maybe bribe
me with an unreleased Ayler tape) to watch a professional baseball game.
Ken Waxman
cj649@torfree.net
On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
> Joseph S. Zitt writes:
>
>
> > Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
> > are also very into baseball...
> >
>
> I like the remarks on Babbitt, who woulda thunk it? I know the Boss is
> a big fan, I often wonder about jazz musicians, though, which ones like
> to go out to the ballpark.
>
> gg
>
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:37:11 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
>
> I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
> here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the kind of things you left to other to say... But I understand
that if they don't, you are left to yourself to preach the gospel.
> the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
> reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that. I would
> grant those latter viewpoints, but I disagree that they speak for
> everyone and everything.
That's the problem with life: people never understand how great your
vision about things is :-).
Being a composer, I am sure it is a serious dilemna to you. Seriously,
when people dismisses your music, do you complain the same way (like:
"I try my best to make the greatest and most original music ever
written, but people just don't get it").
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:38:36 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Ken Waxman writes:
> Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of which musician
> *likes* baseball (or hockey or chess or etc.). It's a question of how
> that interest affected his or her music. I personally abhor all sports in
> general, but that doesn't mean that I ignore Albert Ayler's playing
> because he was a good golfer or Cecil Taylor's because he played
> basketball in high school.
>
No, let's DO get sidetracked. Why the hell not? After all, that was
exactly what I was curious about. A love of baseball is something that
I have and would view favorably in someone else. I'd like to know what
musicians love the game. Maybe I'd give them a second chance!
William Schuman wrote a short opera, "Casey At The Bat," which is
exactly what it says. Would you, Ken, go see that if you were
interested in Schuman's work?
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:02:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Sure, if I liked Schuman. But what about you? What if you found out that
someone you admire, Zorn, let's say, absolutely hated baseball? Would
that downgrade his music in your estimation?
Ken Waxman
cj649@torfree.net
On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
> Ken Waxman writes:
>
>
> > Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of which musician
> > *likes* baseball (or hockey or chess or etc.). It's a question of how
> > that interest affected his or her music. I personally abhor all sports in
> > general, but that doesn't mean that I ignore Albert Ayler's playing
> > because he was a good golfer or Cecil Taylor's because he played
> > basketball in high school.
> >
>
> No, let's DO get sidetracked. Why the hell not? After all, that was
> exactly what I was curious about. A love of baseball is something that
> I have and would view favorably in someone else. I'd like to know what
> musicians love the game. Maybe I'd give them a second chance!
>
> William Schuman wrote a short opera, "Casey At The Bat," which is
> exactly what it says. Would you, Ken, go see that if you were
> interested in Schuman's work?
>
> gg
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:15:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Matthew R Levitt <levi0082@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: What makes jewish music?
I'm looking for all of the good discussion on Jewish music and I've been
having trouble finding any of it in the archives. I'm specifically
referring to the talk about what makes Jewish music....and the two Great
Jewish Music comps. If anyone has their original posts they could forward
me that would be great...otherwise if you have any idea of what
months/weeks this thread took place let me know. I'm working on a project
dealing with essentialism in Zorn's theory of music.
-Matt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:23:33 EDT
From: Knutboy <Knutboy@aol.com>
Subject: Discographys
Anyone out there have discography's for both Actuel and Shander labels? I'm
desperately looking for both. Please e-mail me privately if you can help.
Thanks!
Steve Knutson
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:35:56 -0700
From: Rob DeNunzio <zorn@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: steve zorn
I know that John has family out here in Oregon (Eugene, Salem area
notably), including a nephew who's got a wonderful reputation as a drummer.
Problem is, I can't remember his name. More than likely it's the same guy.
All in the family... not bad, really
Rob DeNunzio
Hi-Fi Mundo
http://www.teleport.com/~hifim
At 11:07 AM 5/12/98 +0200, Yves Dewulf wrote:
>
>The Knitting factory-page mentions an improv-night with Zorn.
>(Mainspace, May 14)
>It features a certain Steve Zorn on drums,
>is this an KF-error or is this guy related to one of the JZ's .
>
>YVes
>
>-
>
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: 12 May 1998 20:25:40 GMT
From: Mike_Chamberlain@babylon.montreal.qc.ca (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: Baseball
george_grella@decisionanalytics.com,Internet writes:
>Brian Olewnick mentioned that he's a big baseball fan, and I'm with him
>there. And it got me to thinking something last night, after listening
>to William Schuman and reading about Charles Ives. Both composers
>played baseball, Schuman professionally in the minor leagues, and I
>would assume they remained fans of the game [Ives even has a piano piece
>called "Some Southpaw Pitching"]. Anyone else know of any definite
>baseball fan musicians? Does the packaging and titling of "Yankees"
>indicate a personal interest in the game on the part of John Zorn?
If you are not referring exclusively to contemporary musicians who might be
discussed on this list, I know of a number of jazz musicianers who were
baseball fans, beginning with Louis Armstrong. Harry James was apparently a
very good ballplayer, I think an outfielder. Lionel Hampton was an honorary
third base coach for the Kansas City Monarchs at one time. Stories abound of
swing-era musicians who would stop the band bus at ball fields for impromptu
games.
BTW, George, I am new to this list, but I think I may have met you at the
Cooperstown Synposium a couple of years ago (1995 actually). Could this be
possible.
- --Mike Chamberlain
gg
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: 12 May 1998 20:57:26 GMT
From: Mike_Chamberlain@babylon.montreal.qc.ca (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: Baseball
Ken Waxman,cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca,Internet writes:
> What if you found out that
>someone you admire, Zorn, let's say, absolutely hated baseball? Would
>that downgrade his music in your estimation?
Of course not. But everything I know about a musician obviously in some way,
no matter how vague or ill-defined, enhances my appreciation of what he/she
does.
- --Mike
- -
------------------------------
Date: 12 May 1998 20:29:43 GMT
From: Mike_Chamberlain@babylon.montreal.qc.ca (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: Baseball
george_grella@decisionanalytics.com,Internet writes:
Joseph S. Zitt writes:
>> Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
>> are also very into baseball...
>>
>
>I like the remarks on Babbitt, who woulda thunk it? I know the Boss is
>a big fan, I often wonder about jazz musicians, though, which ones like
>to go out to the ballpark.
George Thorogood played semipro ball in his younger days.
I forgot to mention this in my previous post: I have a friend who went to his
first major league game at Yankee Stadium in the eary 60s with Pepper Adams,.
Tommy Flanagan, and Art Taylor. Tommy (perhaps I should call him Mr.
Flanagan) is still a baseball fan.
- --Mike
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:08:35 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: More Roscoe Mitchell in NYC
Petr Kotik's SEM Ensemble is presenting a concert on Wednesday, May 20,
8PM at Alice Tully Hall. Program:
Kotik Fragment for Orchestra 2
Mitchell Fallen Heroes
Handel Solomon
Feldman For Samuel Beckett
Tix $18-30.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:03:51 +0200
From: Benjamin Pequet <benjamin@club.integral.be>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
George this is a message I hesitated to send just to you or to the list,
because I think this is getting a bit personal and not really leading us
anywhere anymore. This is true for the first part of it.
I understand the argument that it is probably frustrating to look at
(Eric). And I agree also there have been enough long posts about this (Dr
Wilkie).
>> I join Joseph on his comments to that. And George what you write there is=
>> a
>> bit optimistic I think.=20
>> But that is merely the point I defend from the beginning, we do have
>> choices, we do have to make choices. And that's politics in the way that
>> you finally admitted in your answer to Joseph, we all agree.=20
>>
>
>Optimistic to you, maybe, but actual experience to me. If anyone looks
>at the music they listen to, finds it wanting, and then blames the media
>for that, then they've given up. As listeners, we have a lifetime to be
>curious and explore our aural desires in many, many ways. One way I'd
>like to add is find a good music library, go there and pull things off
>the shelves at random to listen to. See what you find. Yes, blame the
>media for marketing the lame and the bland, but blame yourself if you
>don't bother to put in the personal energy to get beyond that.
George what makes you say that I blame the medias and am doing nothing,
that I gave up ! This I could find insulting because I believe in the exact
opposite than what you seem to attribute to me. I think I never wrote
anything that can make you assume that I don't do exactly what you advice
me to do. Yes, find a good music library and pull things off the shelves.
But I want to do more than that. If you think I'm grumpy I think a capacity
of indignation is healthy and also really needed. I mean in what I wrote
from the beginning is present the idea that for a bunch of reasons not
everybody finds his or her way to a good music library, and that once you
are in the place you still have to make your own trajectory through the
shelves.
For being of the two sides of the counter of such a music library actually
I see a bit of how hectic the trajectory of the average listeners, people
who don't have the chance that you have or that I have (I taped more music
that you have cds) to listen to music all day. And somehow I feel
concerned. But I never tried to impose my way of looking at things to
anyone, for as far as I can know.
I think Joseph is right in pointing that we are probably here a bit higher
than the world norm in some way (even if I am sorry to use expressions such
as 'average listener' and 'higher than the world norm'... these are just
convenient for what we are trying to say and also I am sure Joseph don't
use that expression with pejorative, or meliorative connotations).
I believe that there is certainly a good study to make about the patterns
of listening and the trajectories people develop in what they listen. And I
believe nothing at all of that kind has ever been done scientifically -
here again if I'm wrong I would very much appreciate to be put right.
Where do people look for their aural pleasure and where do they find it ?
Personally I don't listen to music for my pleasure. Not that I would force
myself to listen to something that I don't want to listen, what I mean is
that I did hit walls within me when I started to listen to some things.
Some things of Zorn by the way were painful to listen to. But appealing for
some reason, that I started to find out only later. And rewarding.
And if at some point I am used to listening to what I listen to I think
it's a really bad sign. Or if sometime I can say I know exactly why I
listen to what I listen to, then I guess it's time for me to retire.
Hmm. Well.
Now 1. Is someone up to explain an European the rules of Baseball ?
2. I'm listening to a to me enigmatic volume 2 of Keiji Haino/Loren
MazzaCane Connors cd. There is no comment or anything on the cover or on
the disc. I didn't see a volume 1 yet but I'm sure soon. But I suspect
there could be no more comment on it. Who is Loren MazzaCane Connors ?
He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.
3. Who are Ayn Rand and Pete Seeger ?
Benjamin
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:58:58 +0200
From: Benjamin Pequet <benjamin@club.integral.be>
Subject: Re: decomposition & reconstruction (was: Socio-political)
>Here we have a quote from Carroll dealing with the issue of the creator's
>intent (as viewed through vocabulary choice) used to illustrate the point
>that we are all trapped in our own socio-political worlds when it comes to
I agree. A quote used to illustrate whatever you want to see it illustrate.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:29:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David J. Strauss" <djs2852@is.nyu.edu>
Subject: VISION ONE ltd. COMPILATION (fwd)
I was asked to forward this. As it includes a previously unreleased Zorn
track, it seems more than appopriate.
DS
djs2852@is.nyu.edu
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:21:16 +0100
From: stevenj@aumfidelity.com
To: insight@aumfidelity.com
Subject: VISION ONE ltd. COMPILATION
Hello so quickly again,
I've made a few mentions of this here and there and received a number of
inquiries;but FINALLY (like the previous e..) I am sitting down to send
the word:::
The tremendous (and it is...) compilation outlined below will be arriving
here by next Monday May 18th, the first day of the Third Annual Vision
Festival, where it will be sold that entire week. The AUM mail order
price is $25 per set; send your checks in now and you will be assured a
copy. At the end of the festival; the remaining copies will be made
available and sold to Aum's distributors.
All exclusive recordings made at the Second Annual Vision Festival/NYC in
May 1997;
Strictly Limited Edition of 1000.
This compilation was produced by AUM Fidelity as a benefit for VISION FEST
'98; remarkably during this past month of April for readiness on MAY 18th.
VISION ONE: Vision Fest 1997 Compiled (AUM007/8) 2xCD
DISC 1
HURRICANE: Trio Hurricane 6.30
MARK DRESSER QUARTET: Bosnia 7.30
JOHN ZORN / SUSIE IBARRA: Untitled 5.15
WILLIAM PARKER & THE LITTLE HUEY
CREATIVE MUSIC ORCHESTRA: Excerpt from Hoang 13.30
THURSTON MOORE / LAWRENCE COOK / JON VOIGT:
Fuzz Against Junk 7.50
ROB BROWN / MATTHEW SHIPP: Vision Statement 2 9.25
DAVID S. WARE QUARTET: Lockup '97 8.20
BORAH BERGMAN+DENIS CHARLES+ROY CAMPBELL:
We Remember You 7.20
DISC 2
COOPER-MOORE QUARTET: Coleus In Bloom/Paradox 13.30
PATRICIA NICHOLSON ENSEMBLE: Song 5.15
RASHIED ALI'S PRIMA MATERIA: Excerpt from Meditation 7.30
BILL COLE'S UNTEMPERED ENSEMBLE:
Excerpt from Seasoning The Greens 15.10
BUTCH MORRIS: Excerpt from Conduction #7 7.30
ASSIF TSAHAR TRIO with JOHN TCHICAI: Event Horizon 10.00
OTHER DIMENSIONS IN MUSIC: Dewey's Banquet 12.30
And again, now is a good time to double or triple up your order with the 2
additional new / 3 outstanding Aum titles.
Kind Regards,
Steven Joerg
AUM FIdelity
PO Box 170147
Brooklyn, NY 11217
http://www.aumfidelity.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:04:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Socio-political composition
On Tue, 12 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:
> The sounds themselves do not
> carry political content --
The sounds themselves don't carry any content at all.
<Reasonable argument that socio-political content depends on the
listener's background snipped>
> What I'm getting at is that it's pretty silly to judge music based on its
> socio-political content (except as a purely personal judgement)
Which is to say music shouldn't be judged on its content? (I'm not saying
that all content is socio-political, just that the things you say about
socio-political content are true of every other kind as well.)
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:33:53 +1000
From: Peter Hollo <raven@cia.com.au>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Funny, I don't find the Mona Lisa all that compelling. And I HATE the
Ode to Joy, but then I dislike most Beethoven. Gimme Schubert chamber
music over any Beethoven any day!
Is that because I also hate advertising in general? Am I immune to hype?
Or am I just susceptible to a different kind of hype, in the realm I
find cool? I don't think so - I listen to a lot of "idm" ("intelligent
dance music") but when something's hyped on the email list and I listen
to it and am not interested, I'm not interested. I like what conforms to
my own criteria. Similarly I like certain John Zorn releases, and the
cacophanic type ones just don't interest me. I like powerful noisy stuff
but not if sounds totally random.
Whatever, some thoughts I guess.
Why Zorn? Because some of his music is impeccably created and
extraordinarily powerful and being Jewish I'm susceptible to the Jewish
related music in particular. It appeals to the musician in a lot of us
too, I think - musicians' music in a way, because it yields a lot to
performers and composers too.
Peter.
- --
Peter Hollo raven@cia.com.au http://www.cia.com.au/raven/
FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
http://www.cia.com.au/raven/fourplay.html
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #368
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