home
***
CD-ROM
|
disk
|
FTP
|
other
***
search
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
pub
/
lists
/
zorn-list
/
archive
/
v02.n367
< prev
next >
Wrap
Internet Message Format
|
1998-05-11
|
22KB
From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #367
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, May 12 1998 Volume 02 : Number 367
In this issue:
-
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Baseball
Re: Baseball
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Re: Socio-political composition
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Re: Baseball
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Re: ground zero/cassiber
The Webern Nazi thing...
Re: ground zero/cassiber
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:47:10 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Marc Downing writes:
> Since none of us are listening to music in a vacuum, we can't ignore the
> impact hype has on what it is that we do. In the last exchange between JZ
> and GG, we've seen two approaches to it, (1) an acceptance of it as an
> inextricable factor of our lives and (2) a self-conscious avoidance of it
> (1000 CD's? NONE of which have been reviewed? Wow ...).
>
> My collection of CD's is quite different from GG's. I have plenty of hyped
> pieces alongside my more obscure recordings. I like the physical reaction
> I have to music. I like the mental landscapes that seem to conjure
> themselves for me when I listen to music. I love spending energy simply on
> listening, which in iteself can be an intensely creative activity. But I
> can't ignore the fact that hype can, in itself, in some people, produce a
> similar reaction.
Folks, let me point out that I was using a bit of hyperbole. Of course
I've purchased CDs based on reviews and advertising, but I also
purchased many, many CDs based on NONE of that. I'm seeing so many
self-assured, sweeping comments in here that "all things are this way"
that, when accumulated, make me want to point out the exceptions.
Forgive my license to hyperbole to counter the equally hyperbolic claims
of Objective Truth.
Like the claim of 'Hype.' I'll grant that, but it's also a subjective
measure. Marc says the Beethoven 9th is hyped, I say it's a great piece
of music. We can both be right, but to only say it's 'hyped' sounds
pejorative. Somethings can be hyped because they're worth it, other
things can be hyped when they're not worth it at all. I read a
favorable review of a recording of Mahler 6 in the American Record
Guide, and I purchased it based on that, my experience with the magazine
and the peformers. It sucked. So yeah, I bought into the 'hype,' but
then when I experienced it for myself, I rejected the hype. It can
happen. Just as I bought "Full Force" out of plain curiousity when the
original LP came out; I had never even heard of the AAOC before, I just
wanted to try something new. That can happen to.
I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that. I would
grant those latter viewpoints, but I disagree that they speak for
everyone and everything.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:55:32 -0400
From: "Chris from Zeke's" <zeke@zeke.com>
Subject: Baseball
George Grella brought up the fact that:
Ives even has a piano piece
called "Some Southpaw Pitching".
Schuman turned Casey at the Bat into an Opera that has been recorded at
least twice.
Danny Kaye was a huge Brooklyn Dodgers fan.
I also have a copy of The Brooklyn Baseball Cantata (although I can't
remember if it was Danny Kaye, Robert Merrill, or somebody else who sang
it.)
And while trying to find out who sang it, I came across this link, A
Bibliography of Baseball Music Titles.
http://www2.ari.net/home/odenwald/ballb/intro.html
Anyone else know of any definite
baseball fan musicians?
Also, although it he is more of a "pop" singer, at a recent Dan Bern show he
made 4 separate references (3 in song) to baseball. Sandy Koufax, Willie
Mays, Jackie Robinson, and Felipe Alou.
S'later
Zeke
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:01:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Baseball
On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
> Brian Olewnick mentioned that he's a big baseball fan, and I'm with him
> there. And it got me to thinking something last night, after listening
> to William Schuman and reading about Charles Ives. Both composers
> played baseball, Schuman professionally in the minor leagues, and I
> would assume they remained fans of the game [Ives even has a piano piece
> called "Some Southpaw Pitching"]. Anyone else know of any definite
> baseball fan musicians? Does the packaging and titling of "Yankees"
> indicate a personal interest in the game on the part of John Zorn?
Milton Babbitt is a huge baseball fan. His piece "Around the Horn", as
well as some others, are based on aspects of the game. (Amusingly, the
speakers giving excruciatingly detailed analyses of the piece at the
recent Babbitt symposium at the Library of Congress never spotted this,
and, as Babbitt told us in his closing remarks, gave completely erroneous
analyses... which I guess show us again that a complicsted enough system
of analysis can make anything appear to fit its mold (hence, also, the
Bible Code).)
Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
are also very into baseball...
-
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:06:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
> I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
> here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
> the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
> reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that. I would
> grant those latter viewpoints, but I disagree that they speak for
> everyone and everything.
Hmm... I don't recall seeing any messages that reflect those supposed
reductive, deterministic, opposing viewpoints. Will those who hold them
please raise your hands?
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:25:23 -0400
From: Mark Saleski <marks@foliage.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:06:55 -0400
> From: Marc Downing <mpdownin@fes.uwaterloo.ca>
> Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
>
> >>"Why is music such a pleasure?"
> >>
> >>Now, there's a question!
> >>
i've been reading a book called Music,The Brain and Ecstacy that deals with some of
these issues.it's about a lot more that that but i thought some of you out there
might be interested. here's a review:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/books/Jourdain97.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:28:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Socio-political composition
On Tue, 12 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:
>
> This argument has been occurring on two levels from the beginning, which is
> frustrating to watch. George seems to have been speaking of the composer
> and the process of composition while Benjamin and Joseph seem to have been
> talking about the world in which the composer, performer, and listener all
> live; not only the special sub-world containing the three of them in
> relation to each other, but the complex meta-world that is created by the
> union of all their experieces in the "real world" outside.
That looks like an accurate summary to me. Benjamin's description of the
financial realities involved in access to outside music hits several nails
on the head: while I would guess that the income and lifestyle of people
on this list (as shown by being Net-connected) is at least a bit higher
than the world norm, how many people in, as you call it, the "real world"
are financially able to go out and attend concerts and buy CDs on a whim
knowing nothing about the music -- or even to go to a nearby well-clued,
well-stocked CD store and listen to what's in stock?
> Yes, Benjamin, we are all trapped by the world around us. This is true of
> composers, too. While I will agree that this shapes the music we write, I
> believe the constraints and shapes a composer consciously imposes on the
> work are the truly important ones, as these are the only ones over which
> the composer has control.
Hmm... I don't see either set of constraints as more or less important
than the other. Both affect the shape of the work. What is most important
is to recognize the parameters within which you're working, both
externally and self-imposed, and to do your best between them.
> Politically shaped by Ayn Rand,
> Eric
Literarily annoyed by Ayn Rand (and politically shaped by Pete Seeger),
Joe
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:37:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
On Tue, 12 May 1998, Mark Saleski wrote:
> i've been reading a book called Music,The Brain and Ecstacy that deals with some of
> these issues.it's about a lot more that that but i thought some of you out there
> might be interested. here's a review:
>
> http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/books/Jourdain97.html
Thanks for the pointer! From reading that review (and others posted at
amazon.com), it looks like a must-read. The publication info, snarfed from
amazon, is:
Music, the Brain & Ecstasy : How Music Captures Our
Imagination
by Robert Jourdain
Paperback, 377 pages
Published by Avon Books (Pap Trd)
Publication date: March 1998
Dimensions (in inches): 1.13 x 8.08 x 5.36
ISBN: 038078209X
-
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:02:00 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Joseph S. Zitt writes:
> Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
> are also very into baseball...
>
I like the remarks on Babbitt, who woulda thunk it? I know the Boss is
a big fan, I often wonder about jazz musicians, though, which ones like
to go out to the ballpark.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:04:10 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Joseph S. Zitt writes:
> Hmm... I don't recall seeing any messages that reflect those supposed
> reductive, deterministic, opposing viewpoints. Will those who hold them
> please raise your hands?
>
HUH?!?!?! After all this discussion of whether politics/economics are
the determining factors in musical expression? I've not been talking to
my alter egos out here.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:07:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
> Joseph S. Zitt writes:
>
>
> > Hmm... I don't recall seeing any messages that reflect those supposed
> > reductive, deterministic, opposing viewpoints. Will those who hold them
> > please raise your hands?
> >
>
> HUH?!?!?! After all this discussion of whether politics/economics are
> the determining factors in musical expression? I've not been talking to
> my alter egos out here.
Er, what? Has anyone here said that "politics/economics are the
determining factors in musical expression" ?
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:46:08 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Joseph S. Zitt writes:
> Er, what? Has anyone here said that "politics/economics are the
> determining factors in musical expression" ?
>
I'm only going to go back as far as yesterday, because this whole thing
has gotten tiresome for me, personally [speaking only for myself], but
we had an exchange that touched on the political/economic entanglements
of composition, where I repeated the vital, IMO, delineation between
creation and performance, all of which came from a response to Benjamin
who has been highly deterministic in his economic/political/"media"
views on making and listening to music, which all originally began with
an amalgam of Boulez/Zappa/Ben Watson and Watson's comment the the
symphony orchestra is a bourgeois expression which I responded to by
saying the music played by the orchestra was the composers expression
which began this whole mess of whether the composer can handle their own
bag, the American rugged individualist mythos as you described, or
whether they were helpless in their creative process before
political/economic forces, which, if they composer is helpless, are
deterministic forces, whether someone, anyone, has used that exact word
or not. Now I shut up. Thankfully to most, I'm sure.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:54:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
> I'm only going to go back as far as yesterday, because this whole thing
> has gotten tiresome for me, personally [speaking only for myself], but
> we had an exchange that touched on the political/economic entanglements
> of composition, where I repeated the vital, IMO, delineation between
> creation and performance, all of which came from a response to Benjamin
> who has been highly deterministic in his economic/political/"media"
> views on making and listening to music, which all originally began with
> an amalgam of Boulez/Zappa/Ben Watson and Watson's comment the the
> symphony orchestra is a bourgeois expression which I responded to by
> saying the music played by the orchestra was the composers expression
> which began this whole mess of whether the composer can handle their own
> bag, the American rugged individualist mythos as you described, or
> whether they were helpless in their creative process before
> political/economic forces, which, if they composer is helpless, are
> deterministic forces, whether someone, anyone, has used that exact word
> or not. Now I shut up. Thankfully to most, I'm sure.
Ah, OK -- you saw the rational consideration of one's environment as
helplessness. It all becomes clear.
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:34 -0700
From: Michael Howes <mhowes@best.com>
Subject: Re: ground zero/cassiber
>The new Wayside catalog was delivered to my house yesterday, and it
>lists the 2cd set of live Cassiber and Ground Zero remixes as a new
>release on ReR, due in stock June 15.
Is the Ground Zero release;
"Conflagration, Project : Consume / Consuming Ground-Zero Vol. 2" ?
If it is it's the 2nd part in the 3 part series. All three are out and
I've had this one for 3 or 4 months.
Remixes of tracks from Consumed Red (if I remember) from Ground Zero by
Gastr Del Sol, Stock, Hausen & Walkman (who have a new album out), Violent
Onsen Geisha, Bob Ostertag and a couple others.
mike
mhowes@best.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:17:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tom Benton <rancor@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: The Webern Nazi thing...
I shouldn't have deleted that mail, but oh well. I'm going to ask anyway.
To whoever posted the 'Webern Was A Double Agent for the Nazis' article:
Any idea of the origin of this? It's gotten me very intrigued, despite
the questionable amount of truth involved...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:27:41 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: ground zero/cassiber
On Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:34 -0700 Michael Howes wrote:
>
> >The new Wayside catalog was delivered to my house yesterday, and it
> >lists the 2cd set of live Cassiber and Ground Zero remixes as a new
> >release on ReR, due in stock June 15.
>
> Is the Ground Zero release;
> "Conflagration, Project : Consume / Consuming Ground-Zero Vol. 2" ?
No, it is this one:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
099 - LIVE IN TOKYO: Cassiber
Disc 1: Cassiber Live In Tokyo
1/ A Screaming Comes Across The Sky (Cassiber, Pynchon) 2:15
2/ They Have Begun To Move (Cassiber, Pynchon) 5:11
3/ They Go In Under Archways (Cassiber, Pynchon) 2:49
4/ Philosophy (Cassiber, Cutler) 0:54
5/ Gut (Rene Lussier, Anders) 3:03
6/ Prisoner Chorus (Cassiber, Anders) 3:38
7/ Todo Dia (Cassiber) 3:12
8/ Come On! Start The Show! (Anders, Pynchon) 3:10
9/ It's Never Quiet (Cassiber, Cutler) 2:49
10/ O Cure Me (Cassiber, JS Bach) 3:32
11/ Our Colourful Culture (Cassiber, Cutler) 2:29
12/ Prometheus (Cassiber, Cutler) 5:01
13/ Remember (Cassiber, Cutler) 2:24
14/ I Was Old (Cassiber, Cutler) 5:14
15/ Orpheus Mirror (Cassiber, Anders) 4:39
16/ I Tried To Reach You (Cassiber, Cutler) 2:42
Disc 2: "Cassiber Live In Tokyo" Re-mixed by Ground Zero
17/ Across The Sky #1 20:27
18/ O Cure @ Me 6:15
19/ Gutt 4:34
20/ Across the Sky #2 (4:25)
21/ 12:49
21a/ Across the Sky #3
21b/ At Last I Am Free
21c/ Across the Stars
(1-16) recorded at Shin-okubo R's Art Court, Tokyo on October 23, 1992
(17-21) sampled and re-mixed at A-102, Tokyo in September-November 1997
(17-21) additional recording at Gok Sound, Tokyo in October-November 1997
(1-16) produced by Heiner Goebbels
(17-21) produced by Otomo Yoshihide
Produced by Shigenori Noda
Christoph Anders: vocals, sampler, guitar; Chris Cutler: drums, percussion,
electronics; Heiner Goebbels: piano, sampler, Chinese violin, guitar,
vocals; Masami Shinoda: alto; Otomo Yoshihide (17-21): turntables, CD-J,
hard-disk recorder, rythm box, self-made guitar; Tatsuki Masuko (17,19):
DX-7; Mizuhiro (17,19): Mono-Poly; Kazunao Nagata (17): ARP 2600; Haco (18):
voice; Michiyo Yagi (18): 20-string koto, teeth clack; Sachiko M (18,19,21):
sampler; Masahiro Uemura (18,19): drums; Yoshimitsu Ichiraku (18): electro-
nic sounds; Shuichi Chino (19-21): piano, combo organ; Junji Hirose (21):
tenor; Naruyoshi Kikuchi (21): tenor; Yasuhiro Otani (21): computer; Mitsuru
Nasuno (21): bass; Yasuhiro Yoshigaki (21): drums.
1997 - Off Note (Japan), ON-25 (2xCD)
Note: all the music on (17-21) is based on source material from "Cassiber
Live In Tokyo."
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #367
*******************************
To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
"majordomo@lists.xmission.com"
with
"unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
in the body of the message.
For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
"help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
in the commands above with "zorn-list".
Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.
Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com