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Zorn List Digest         Thursday, May 7 1998         Volume 02 : Number 358



In this issue:
-
       Re: Avant magazine
       Sharpish
       RE: Avant magazine
       kaoru abe
       Avant /magazines
       Re: Zappa/Watson
       Magazines
       Re: Music & Jargon
       Whitehead book
       Re:  Whitehead book
       Re: Zappa/Watson
       Re: Magazines
       An apology to Litweiler

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:27:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Avant magazine

Hi-

Does anyone have the subscription address for this magazine. I'd like to try
to get my library to subscribe to it.

Thanks,
Rob


At 10:31 AM 5/6/98 -0500, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
>On Wed, 6 May 1998, Lang Thompson wrote:
>
>> The new issue of Cadence lists a few issues of a magazine called Avant.  Is
>> it worth getting and do the cassettes with it have any unreleased music?
>
>If it's the same magazine that I picked up a copy of recently, It's
>wonderful -- makes The Wire looks like Teen Beat.... Wow, looking at the
>Cadence listing for Avant issue 5, it looks like it's the one. I'm
>ordering ASAP. Thanks for the pointer!

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:20:43 +0200
From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sharpish

Stefan Verstraeten wrote:
>Someone on the list (also someone from Belgium, you know the country of
>Marc Dutroux and chocolate) asked for information concerning Elliot

I was rather asking for feed back than for information. Actually still
wondering about places of real discussion about... stuff. I mean places that
defend expressions and where voices can be heard. It's definitely not in the
medias or anywhere to be bought in stores, so if some of you have hints, I
would really like to hear.

In talking about the Sharp and saying he had been pretty mild that night I
didn't mean to denigrate or anything of that kind. Even if he had become
real bad me think it would be important and appropriate to feel free to talk
about it, strategic to talk about it, nice to feel free to talk about it.
And by the way I had a good time at that concert, thanks.

I repeat I am relatively new to the list.
Everyone on this list seems to be very cautious about how expressing their
opinions and I appreciate this a lot. I am amazed at the knowledge of some
and how you seem to be able to keep the pace at which the cds are released,
and how you can afford to buy them.

Just something hit me though, actually before I posted my thing the other
day. I had chills everywhere reading this:

Steve Smith about some concert:
>certain I was clear that I enjoyed the concert (if I hadn't I guarantee I
>wouldn't have written about it for the Zornlist or anoyone else), and that in
>fact there's no chance I would ever have missed it.  I don't recall writing

If you hadn't enjoyed the concert you wouldn't have written about it ?
Unfortunately I don't know whose concert you were talking about, that's for
sure that if you happen to see an insignificant band you won't feel the need
to talk about that.
But what's behind what you write ? Are we talking here about the music we
like, the music we enjoy listening to, the music we think is important to
support for some reason, or what ?
I am really wondering. And to whom asked why Zorn ? I couldn't come up with
an answer (have you noticed all the answers to that question were a couple
of lines long ?)
I ask myself the question quite often, though not in these terms. Generally
I just go through my tapes, pick one and start listening - thanks God not
necessarily a Zorn thing.

I find a Sharp more consistent than a Zorn for example (regarding to his
discography). But I would be soon short on words if I had to explain that.
Must be as many reasons to listen to Zorn than moments in my day, and the
same probably goes for all of us - and probably many more reasons to not
listen to him.

Because he can play anything ? Because he has around him the greatest
musicians of this time and seems to know exactly what to ask each of them ?
Because he blows hard ?
Because he thinks he's an angel ? Because he really is something of that kind ?

Anyone some insight about this ?

On the list lately also I found things that seem to me totally outrageous,
like:

>Patrice, my point is that I regard Boulez, critically, as a musician.  I
>don't know the man personally, I can't pass judgement on his aesthetic
>and bureaucratic politics, nor do I care to.  It doesn't matter to me,
>because that kind of thing quickly becomes a contest over who belongs to

and :

>found that totally unfair, on both counts.  Unless you know the man,
>regard him as a musician.  You are criticizing him as you see him as a
>public figure, which is subjective and emotional, all arguing by
>assertion; not just what Boulez did, but how you feel about it as an

Alright George Grella, only the music... no politics.
Have you heard, all ? Let's not get into subjective or emotional about music
then. About politics well ?

But isn't music a political thing, when someone for example (why am I
thinking of Boulez ?) holds such a position as the one occupied by Boulez in
France ?
Or isn't it a political statement to be listening to some kind of music than
another ? Why on earth are we on a Zorn list ?

Jeff Schuth wrote:
>here, are either about recent CD purchases or favorite artists.  While
>this is interesting, I was wondering why no one talks about the music
>itself.  I guess I am just curious why everyone here is drawn to this
>sort of music.  I'm not even sure myself.  This music obviously cannot

About Boulez, isn't that obvious to everybody that there is Boulez the great
conductor and Boulez the old fart ? Of course he's not totally bad, for
example I remember him quoting Henri Michaux and using some in his works.

But can't we lift the debate to some kind of objectivity ? I know we don't
have many models for objectivity around us, especially about questions of
music, but...

Patrice Roussel,
I think you shouldn't lose your time argueing with GG. Your patience and
gentleness, your consideration here are admirable. (I think GG is Pierre
Boulez subscribed for some reason on this list under a nickname.)

George Grella,your last statements are simply dreadful.

>interested in the music.  What you're missing is that Boulez is the
>great icon ]love him or hate him] of the high Modernist International
>Style, the aim of which was to break down nationalistic qualities in
>music, so it's strange that your comments seem so wrapped up in French
>navel-gazing.  Boulez is like Elliot Carter or Stockhausen is so many
>ways, not just in terms of exemplifying that international style, but in
>engendering so much animosity in their own countries through their
>personal success.  More power to them, I say.

The High Modernist International Style ?

What you seem to be have missed is that the society became post-modern
around 1950 and that we already need to find alternatives to the post-modern
views on this society. Yes, things changed a lot around the middle of this
century... That's by the way for a part why I see so many things in Zorn's
work. And not at all in Boulez's statements. I think we are talking about
very different things, that Boulez himself through his career contributed to
hold as separate as he could.

Come back to me with a definition of fascism will you ? I always consider
useful the one that states fascism as the violence of power.

But please now don't misunderstand what I write, I'm not accusing anyone of
anything.
Wow. Anyway enough for now.
Thanks for your attention if you read.

Benj






- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:18:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Avant magazine

From the reactions of others, I may have been unduly swayed by the one
issue I've seen so far. I didn't mind the writing (but most of what I read
nowadays is on the Net, so i may have grown too forgiving of inept
writing). The layout is problematic -- but compared to arrogant botches
like *urp* Raygun, it's the essence of clarity.

I didn't mean to slam The Wire -- I read it religiously, and hope to
subscribe soon. I'd love to subscribe to Avant, too, if I could figure out
how (the issue I have doesn't say); meanwhile I'm ordering some back
issues from Cadence, which may give a clearer idea of what the zine is
like as a whole.

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|





- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:00:29 PDT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: kaoru abe

After hearing the Ground Zero "cover" of a Kaoru Abe improvisation (?)
on PLAYS STANDARDS, I'm curious about him.  I hear he was nuts...extreme
noise terror!

What does everyone think of tis guy?  I really want to find couple of
the DIW records, but forcedexposure says they're out of print.  Any
light to shed on this?  Any FAVORITES?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 98 14:05:38 -0300
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Avant /magazines

Scott Russell wrote:
"The standard of many articles in Avant is that of the enthusiastically
amateurish"

By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
concerning all the music?

- -Hugo

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:38:18 -0800
From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa/Watson

William York writes:

> Re: Zappa, I would think that if he had never recorded with Boulez or the
> LSO his overall career would not be at much of a loss.  The whole idea of
> being 'legitimate' or that classical music is by definition superior to
> other forms really gets in the way, even with high culture/low culture
> types like Zorn or Zappa.  While I like some of the things they've done in
> classical settings, I think it's often more interesting and enjoyable to
> hear them working with out ideas in more popular formats.  I think playing
> "The Black Page" during a dance contest in front of a big rock crowd is a
> bigger achievement than working with Boulez, and I would put almost any
> Mothers album against any of his classical work.  But that's just my
> perspective of course.

That's an excellent perspective, IMO.  One of the big things I like
about the Zappa orchestral music is that it's just his music, stuff he
wanted to do, that was well written and got played.  It came out of his
personal ideas and desires and was unselfconscious, not like the kind of
stuff that comes out of the demonstration of the musician as the
"serious" type, not just the "popular" type, wherein the attempt to
prove a point makes for same bad music that betrays the point
completely.  See; Joe Jackson and the horrible John Cale settings of
Dylan Thomas poetry.

gg

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:02:08 -0500
From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Magazines

>By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
>concerning all the music?

I would definitely agree with the many previous people who seem to like the
Wire.  I've never been disappointed in it.

Another mag which used to be rather good but is losing a lot of it's appeal
for me is Option.  It used to have a lot of articles on the more
avant/unusual artists, but is now featuring mostly the "alternative" scene.
 The one thing it still has going for it is more album reviews than any
other mag I've read.  almost a quarter of each issue is devoted to reviews
(Most of which seem to not have much to do with the slant of the rest of
the magazine - while their articles tend to be about people like Trent
Reznor, the reviews are of albums by Zorn or Haino and the like).  Now,
while I tend to not always agree with or even pay attention to the opinions
of the reviewers, it is a good place to find out what is out there.  The
only problem is that they tend to review many things LONG after they have
been released (over a year in some cases).  Even though the rest of the
magazine seems doomed to become another in the Rolling Stone / Spin lineup,
at least it has some useful information left (and it only comes out every
other month, so it doesn't cost a lot to keep up).






- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:18:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon

On Wed, 6 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> I have to completely disagree with your last full paragraph, though.  I
> don't see how, in any way, the notion that composers create music out of
> their own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings is
> ideology.  It's reality, fact!  I'm speaking as a composer, firmly in
> the contemporary context of the western tradition, but I am confident
> that I can speak in general for composers from the initial beginnings of
> the symphony orchestra in the Baroque to the present day.  Again,
> composers who write for the orchestra write the pieces they write, the
> bourgeoisie as a class is not writing squat for the orchestra.  This is
> so obvious to me I'm baffled I have to point it out; it is the
> individual doing the work, not the class system.

For a clear explanation of the orchestra as bourgeois capitalist whatever,
see Chris Cutler's book "File Under Popular".

As a composer myself, much of what I have written is not necessarily "out
of [my] own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings" but
due to requests from others, writing a work to their specifications.
Many other write to commissions. It's a valid way of writing, but doesn't
seem to fit into your "reality, fact". (The American mythos of
individualism, so prevalent on the Net, sometimes gets in the way of
people seeing that some people do, indeed, do things to help other
people.)

And writing a piece and getting it heard are radically different
situations. A fellow composer was telling me  few days ago about a piece
he's been writing for the past few years involving a full orchestra, tape,
and 40 readers seated among the audience. He may well write this
marvelously, but I'll bet my hat that, within the current
artistic/economic landscape, nobody ever hears it.

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:32:36 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Whitehead book

A poster on rmb mentioned a new book by Kevin Whitehead covering, I
think, the Dutch jazz scene. Anyone know of its availability in the NYC
area, publisher, etc? Any reviews? (You finished yet, Dan?).

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:31:13 EDT
From: JonAbbey2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Whitehead book

In a message dated 5/7/98 6:35:12 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<A poster on rmb mentioned a new book by Kevin Whitehead covering, I
think, the Dutch jazz scene. Anyone know of its availability in the NYC
area, publisher, etc? Any reviews? (You finished yet, Dan?).

Brian Olewnick>>

The book is called New Dutch Swing and is on Billboard Books. I got a free
copy today, so I'm not sure as to its availability although I had heard
something about a book release party in NYC in conjunction with the Clusone
Trio's appearance next week. You might try giving Billboard Books a call;
they're at 1515 Broadway in NYC. After a very brief glance through it, if you
think you're interested , you probably are. It looks pretty darned
comprehensive and does in fact cover the Dutch jazz scene.

So does anyone know if the Clusone are actually playing NYC next Tuesday or
are they just playing the Knitting Factory on Wednesday?

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:19:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa/Watson

On Wed, 6 May 1998, William York wrote:

> The whole idea of
> being 'legitimate' or that classical music is by definition superior to
> other forms really gets in the way, even with high culture/low culture
> types like Zorn or Zappa.

Maybe especially.  There's a danger of treating some of their work as
merely conceptual art if one focuses on this.

Chris Hamilton


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 00:26:54 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines

Craig Rath wrote:

> >By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
> >concerning all the music?
> [snip]
> Another mag which used to be rather good but is losing a lot of it's appeal
> for me is Option.  It used to have a lot of articles on the more
> avant/unusual artists, but is now featuring mostly the "alternative" scene.
>  The one thing it still has going for it is more album reviews than any
> other mag I've read.

The problem in my opinion is that many of their better writers seem to have
jumped ship.  And some of those who are left writing about adventurous jazz
seem to have little knowledge of and no real regard for the music itself.  I
enjoy Russ Summers, but as an example of what's wrong with the magazine, try
this passage from the March/April issue's review of Matt Shipp and Joe Morris's
"Thesis"......

"People who are really into this sort of thing might be able to tell you, in a
blindfold test, that this was in fact not Cecil Taylor and Derek Bailey.  It's
difficult to know how they would know that..."

Now I'm as guilty of musicial elitism as anyone, but any writer who would make
that statement should under no circumstances be in a position to do so.

Lately I've been enjoying Magnet as the best substitute for Option.  Even so,
although their jazz/improv writer is excellent, the magazine as a whole is not
quite at the level Option once occupied about 11-12 years ago, when they put
Zorn on the cover... literally a magazine that changed my life.  Also found out
about :Zoviet-France: in those pages.

The Wire remains the staple of my diet.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 00:42:00 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: An apology to Litweiler

Just a thought...

After my swipe at John Litweiler during the Roscoe Mitchell thread, I
went back to the book to put the passage David quoted into context.

I still think the line David quoted is pretty puffery, but it follows a
passage of pretty interesting and detailed analysis of the piece in
question.

I still don't care for Mitchell's "L-R-G" but I've gotta say, "The
Freedom Principle" remains an outstanding book and required reading for
anyone looking for a nicely written introduction to the major innovators
of avant garde jazz.  Its exploration of Roscoe Mitchell's work in
particular is fascinating and full of detail, and no one should avoid
the book based on my own mean-spirited jabs made during the heat of a
rebuttal.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #358
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