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Zorn List Digest          Friday, May 8 1998          Volume 02 : Number 359



In this issue:
-
       Re: Magazines
       Re: Music & Jargon (a bit long)
       Re: Magazines
       Only Slightly Related to Zorn
       Re: Only Slightly Related to Zorn
       Re: Magazines
       Paraphrase/Yoshihide recs
       Re: Magazines
       Re: Performances of Zorn compared w/ Zappa
       Re[2]: Performances of Zorn compared w/ Zappa
       Re: Magazines
       Re: Magazines
       re: Whitehead book
       Willem Breuker, was Re: Whitehead book

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 00:54:54 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines

Steve Smith wrote:

> I enjoy Russ Summers, but as an example of what's wrong with the magazine, try
> this passage from the March/April issue's review of Matt Shipp and Joe Morris's
> "Thesis"......

Oh MAN, did that read badly.  It makes it look as if I'm saying that Russ Summers
wrote the stupid review quote that followed.  No!  No!  Not at all.  What I meant
to state was that I enjoy Russ but that other jazz reviewers are writing some
grievous text.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:57:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon (a bit long)

On Wed, 6 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> I have to completely disagree with your last full paragraph, though.  I
> don't see how, in any way, the notion that composers create music out of
> their own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings is
> ideology.  It's reality, fact!

This is only obviously right if all you mean by this is that it's the
composer who composes music.  That's trivially true, and so surely
couldn't be what Watson is denying.  But your use of the word "autonomous"
suggests that you think composers compose freely (in some sense).  Free
from what?  Bourgeois values?  I don't think it's obviously true that
anyone alive today does anything free from those.  (I realize this may not
be what you have in mind.  You're using jargon here yourself, I think.)

> Again,
> composers who write for the orchestra write the pieces they write, the
> bourgeoisie as a class is not writing squat for the orchestra.  This is
> so obvious to me I'm baffled I have to point it out; it is the
> individual doing the work, not the class system.

If you think, as Marxists like Watson typically do, that individuals are
always part of the class system, it can be both.  (Compare with your last
statement "It is the individual auditing my tax returns, not the I.R.S.")

> There's some implied aspects to this that I think are mistaken.  One is
> the common misconception that composers are compelled, either directly
> or implicitly, to write music that the bourgeois patrons of the
> orchestra want to here.

Well, if they want their music performed and listened to, someone had
better want to hear it.  But the claim that orchestral music functions as
bourgeois expression could be more complicated than this.  It could be
that the composer's own artistic values are determined by bourgeois
hegemony.  It would be perfectly consistent with this for the bourgeoisie
themselves not to like the end product.  (Watson is, even in the full
work, vague about this, and had you just criticized him for this, and not
gone on to give your own vague take, we wouldn't be having this
discussion.)

     My point isn't, of course, that Watson's right and you're wrong, but
that you're both invoking ideologically packed views of how composition
works, which is fine with me in both cases, so long as nobody assumes
without further argument that either one of you is onto the One Truth
About Music.  (Nor are yours the only two ideologies that might have
something to say about this.)

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 06:21:51 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Re: Magazines

>>By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
concerning all the music?

THE WIRE

CADENCE

CODA

OPTION

In that order. I know OPTION sucks, but I still find a nugget in each
issue important enough to keep me subscribed. THE WIRE is invaluable
across genres. CADENCE and CODA are essential for the 'creative and
improvised' end of the spectrum.

DF Sinner

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:58:07 EDT
From: Sulacco <[e-mail]>
Subject: Only Slightly Related to Zorn

i don't know why this kind of thing bugs me, but it does. i was thumbing
through the latest issue of Guitar (i believe that is the mag) because it had
an article about Buckethead in it. it was a little one page deal where it
discusses "Buckethead nee Herbie Ross." i don't know who is kidding who, but
Herbie Ross is not Buckethead's real name. at least, not how its listed in the
notes for Hope You Like Our New Direction by Henry Kaiser. i don't know if he
told them that on purpose or what, but if he didn't, where did this name come
from? i thought Herbie was his robot buddy. i don't know if he wants to keep
his name a secret or what. any ideas? its kinda silly, but i'm curious, and i
figure if anyone can help me out, it would be one of you guys...

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:08:03 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Only Slightly Related to Zorn

He doesn't want to have his real name known.

At 09:58 AM 5/8/98 EDT, Sulacco wrote:
>i don't know why this kind of thing bugs me, but it does. i was thumbing
>through the latest issue of Guitar (i believe that is the mag) because it had
>an article about Buckethead in it. it was a little one page deal where it
>discusses "Buckethead nee Herbie Ross." i don't know who is kidding who, but
>Herbie Ross is not Buckethead's real name. at least, not how its listed in
the
>notes for Hope You Like Our New Direction by Henry Kaiser. i don't know if he
>told them that on purpose or what, but if he didn't, where did this name come
>from? i thought Herbie was his robot buddy. i don't know if he wants to keep
>his name a secret or what. any ideas? its kinda silly, but i'm curious, and i
>figure if anyone can help me out, it would be one of you guys...
>
>-
>
>
>
Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:23:19 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines

On Fri, 08 May 1998 00:26:54 -0400  Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Craig Rath wrote:
>
> > >By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
> > >concerning all the music?
> > [snip]
> > Another mag which used to be rather good but is losing a lot of it's appeal
> > for me is Option.  It used to have a lot of articles on the more
> > avant/unusual artists, but is now featuring mostly the "alternative" scene.
> >  The one thing it still has going for it is more album reviews than any
> > other mag I've read.
>
> The problem in my opinion is that many of their better writers seem to have
> jumped ship.  And some of those who are left writing about adventurous jazz
> seem to have little knowledge of and no real regard for the music itself.  I

Not to mention big blunders which show that the actual staff of the magazine
has completely forgotten about the awareness of a good part of their readers.

I remember the pathetic person in charge of letters to the magazine. One day
somebody sent a very smart letter related to Peter Greenaway; the OPTION person
did not get it at all and embarrassed himself with the dumbest comment I have
ever read!

Also I am wondering how they choose their reviewers. Few years ago a pathetic
one got a batch of improv/noise he had no clue at all (Keiji Haino, trombone 4tet,
etc). His reviews were totally embarrassing.

If you write in OPTION, you should not assume (like a record store seller) that
everytime somebody makes a comment you don't understand, that person has no
clue. Being a writer in a magazine does not mean a lot.

I also miss the old OPTION (and EAR),

And talking about good people leaving the boat, Stuart Kremsky was invited to
leave OPTION because he was not representative of the new magazine's direction
(which is currently: don't miss any fashion and react in real-time (which means
at least 2 months) to changes).

But the magazine is still hard to dismiss and brings quite a lot, but not anymore
in experimental/avant music. I always wait for it, even though I go through it
in barely 20 mn.

    Patrice.

> enjoy Russ Summers, but as an example of what's wrong with the magazine, try
> this passage from the March/April issue's review of Matt Shipp and Joe Morris's
> "Thesis"......
>
> "People who are really into this sort of thing might be able to tell you, in a
> blindfold test, that this was in fact not Cecil Taylor and Derek Bailey.  It's
> difficult to know how they would know that..."

Wow, this is really dumb in that case.

But as I always say (and getting old does not help :-), let's not forget that
the confusion of music writers (or they blunders) is just the tip of the
iceberg of the audience in general.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:25:42 EDT
From: Nastifyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Paraphrase/Yoshihide recs

All right, it's been almost a week but I wanted to thank those folks who
recommended Berne's screwgun releases to me. Berne was selling this stuff
cheap at the Paraphrase concert here in DC Sunday night. I got unwound ($25),
saturation point, discretion, and the Ducret disk (all $10 each). There is a
definite difference in recording techniques between these and the JMT
releases, but its more a matter of personal preference than good or bad. The
music, which is what's really important, is great. As Brent mentioned, the
Ducret disc has some very interesting artwork. I think this artist, Jonathon
Rosen, did some artwork/animation for the Residents' "Bad Day at The Midway"
CDROM. I seem to remember those floating mechanical spanking disembodied heads
somewhere in there.
As was also previously noted, the Paraphrase concert was unbelievable, esp.
Rainey. There was some discussion earlier about Berne's compositional work, as
compared to the pure improvisatory nature of Paraphrase. I, surprisingly,
found the listening experience of hearing Paraphrase not that much different
from listening to Berne's composed/improvised work. I think this is because
some of what Berne writes for ensemble is intertwining lines, esp. for the
horns. With paraphrase, Tim is the only horn and so he's playing similar sort
of stuff without the need for composition. I am probably not articulating this
very well, I apologize. The other thing that accounts for this similarity is
the remarkable sensitivity between the three musicians. Although I like what
Derek Bailey does with company etc., there is something to be said for
improvising night after night with the same musicians. Also, I must reiterate,
Rainey is the fucking bomb!!! Everybody should catch this band or get the CD.
Drew Gress is no sloucher either, by any means.
On a totally unrelated note, I want to purchase some more of Otomo's stuff.
I'm particularly interested in the stuff he did with Phew. Does anybody own
any of that, and if so what does it sound like? Also, what's Bass Army sound
like, I'm very intrigued by this as well.
thanks,
EGG

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:37:44 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Re: Magazines

On Fri, 08 May 1998 08:23:19 -0700 "Patrice L. Roussel"
<[e-mail]> writes:

>And talking about good people leaving the boat, Stuart Kremsky was
>invited to
>leave OPTION because he was not representative of the new magazine's
>direction

I have found Kremsky rather dismissive of most of the music I like.
Rather mainstream tastes.

DF Sinner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:06:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Performances of Zorn compared w/ Zappa

I may be wrong but the only Zorn CD I've seen or heard which was performed
by people other than NYC (or Japanese) musicians is Angelus Novus, which
was well done and the performers seemed to put a lot more energy into it
than the average classical-type performance.  The Ensemble Modern/ Yellow
Shark seems somewhat comparable to me.

I think Zorn has had better luck because he has worked with people that he
is familiar with and who are creative musicians.  With Zappa, they could
all play but their creative certainly has not always been so impressive,
as their solo albums show (there's a LONG list of hideous albums there)

But, Zorn hasn't worked with a 100 piece orch. has he?

Sorry if this is basic or redundant...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  8 May 1998 18:04:27 UT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Performances of Zorn compared w/ Zappa

<<
But, Zorn hasn't worked with a 100 piece orch. has he?
>>

I seem to remember that just recently he premiered something for full orchestra,
but I forget.  Also, that it might be recorded (hopefully?)

PeterR

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:26:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines

    Best sources for jazz/new improvised music are Cadence and CODA,
which should be read monthly or bi-monthly as the case may be. The Wire
has some interesting sections, but too often the feature stories are on
flavor-of-the-moment "pop-alt" groups. There's sometimes good stuff in
downbeat, Jazz Times (the most conservative) and Jazziz (the most pop,
though it did have Matthew Shipp on the cover this year). Overall, though,
glossy jazz mags are in such a precarious financial situations that the
advertisers (i.e. the major companies) have more of an influence then
they should.

My perspective from reading these (and other) rags for 35 plus years

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines

>
> I have found Kremsky rather dismissive of most of the music I like.
> Rather mainstream tastes.
>
> DF Sinner
>
> -


So let me get this right. If a reviewer doesn't like the music you like,
he's not any good? Sorta reminds me of the letters poor music journalists
have to put up with the day after they've expressed reservations about a
concert. The letters are usually signed "a great fan" and start  "I don't
know what concert X saw last night, but the one I saw with Y was the
greatest show ever in the universe..."

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
(whose first jazz reviews appeared in the Gazette's second edition
in 1971 when they'd remake the obit page to fit in extra stuff from that
night)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:09:32 +0100
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Whitehead book

>From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Whitehead book

>A poster on rmb mentioned a new book by Kevin Whitehead covering, I
>think, the Dutch jazz scene. Anyone know of its availability in the NYC
>area, publisher, etc? Any reviews? (You finished yet, Dan?).


Not finished yet, about 1/2 way through.  It give lots of info on many of
the important musicians, their backgrounds, etc.  Easy to read, lots of
fun. Combination history, oral history, criticism.  Not the normal "these
people are wonderful" type of bio.  At one point he says there hasn't been
a good Breuker album since sometime in the 80's, that Kollektief shows have
become boring and Breuker needs to dump them and start up a quartet again
to get some inspiration back.  He describes Mengelberg's playing during
some ICP show as drivel.  I like it.  He shows the bad (lots of it) as well
as the good.  Lots of stuff about the conflicts between Han, Misha, and
Willem.

My main criticsm is that it focusses on the Amsterdam scene exclusively,
people who are associated with Mengelberg, Bennink, Andriessen and Breuker.
 There is no mention of Luc Houtkamp or Gert-Jan Prins, and the rest of
that X-OR bunch, who I think deserve some recognition.

My other criticism, not of the book but of the world in general, is the
amout of music that Whitehead discusses which I know I will never get to
hear.  All those ICP records, the old BVHaast material, some label called
VARAJAZZ that sounds like it has good stuff...

A good companion piece to this book is the ICP 30 years book that comes as
the packaging for the MiHa disc last year.  It has an essay by Whitehead,
as well as cover photos of all the records on te ICP label.  And a damn
good Bennink/Mengelberg duet album as well.

Dan


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 98 15:35:27 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Willem Breuker, was Re: Whitehead book


     Dan wrote:

>Not finished yet, about 1/2 way through.  It give lots of info on many of
>the important musicians, their backgrounds, etc.  Easy to read, lots of
>fun. Combination history, oral history, criticism.  Not the normal "these
>people are wonderful" type of bio.  At one point he says there hasn't been
>a good Breuker album since sometime in the 80's, that Kollektief shows
>have become boring and Breuker needs to dump them and start up a quartet
>again to get some inspiration back.

Hmmm, that sounds like a valid point. While I have enormous love and
admiration for Breuker's music, the band has gotten a bit stale over the
last decade (Though I'd differentiate between the Kollektief in its aspect
as jazz band and its work as a 'repertoire' group; as the latter, it still
produces fine work like 'Metropolis' and 'Parade'). I wouldn't go so far as
to say the live shows have become boring--I've found them far better than
the recorded work in recent years--but the schtick has certainly worn thin.
They're doing some of the same routines that they did in 1978 and, while
initially very funny, well, once is enough (though I retain fond memories
of trumpeter Andy Altenfelder surreptitiously filling his mute with mineral
water then emptying some 'saliva' on the front row!). The Kollektief does
still contain a _lot_ of incredible players, who go largely unrecognized;
for example, for my money, Altenfelder and Boy Raaymakers are easily the
two greatest trumpet players around who almost no one has heard of. Anyway,
for WB to return to a quartet or other small group might be a nice change
of pace--isn't Leo Cuypers back playing again?

Zorn-related question: Back when JZ was releasing 'Big Gundown',
'Spillane', etc., one of the first connections made by my internal
similarities engine was to Breuker. For years Breuker had been leaping from
style to (hitherto) unrelated style over the course of single pieces.
However, I've never heard Zorn cite Breuker as an influence. Considering
how he's name-checked virtually every other musician alive or dead, this
strikes me as curious.

By the way, Breuker is tentatively scheduled to play in NYC on June 24. I
think this may be within the JVC festival and, at a guess, I imagine it
might be for free in Damrosch Park.

Brian Olewnick






- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #359
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