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1998-04-26
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #344
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, April 27 1998 Volume 02 : Number 344
In this issue:
-
Re: Weird Little Boy
Re: Weird Little Boy
Re: Weird Little Boy
Electronic horns
Re: Re[3]:Cobra
Re[4]:Cobra
Re: Weird Little Boy
BIG
The Violent Death of Dutch Schultz
Re: The Violent Death of Dutch Schultz
Locus Solus
Re: WAYNE HORVITZ
Re: Locus Solus
Re: Weird Little Boy
Re: Re[3]:Cobra
Re: Re[3]:Cobra
[none]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:27:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <wyork@email.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Weird Little Boy
> > Stuff on the Circle Maker (just to take an example) don't really take that
> much effort either, they just come out sounding nicer, that's all.
>
>
I kind of feel that way too. I guess it comes down to how much of
something you want to hear, or from Zorn's perspective it is maybe more a
matter of documenting what he is doing. Certainly other people take this
approach- I just wonder how for example anyone could ever keep up with all
of the stuff Anthony Braxton puts out, and if putting so much stuff out
has the effect of diluting the quality of things.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:20:36 EDT
From: JonAbbey2 <JonAbbey2@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Weird Little Boy
In a message dated 4/26/98 7:30:57 PM, wyork@email.unc.edu wrote:
<<I just wonder how for example anyone could ever keep up with all
of the stuff Anthony Braxton puts out, and if putting so much stuff out
has the effect of diluting the quality of things.>>
I think it depends on the artist. Evan Parker puts out as many records as
Braxton or Zorn and manages to maintain a remarkably high level of quality and
originality. I think part of it is self-discipline; an artist having the self-
awareness to realize which of his project ideas are the most viable.
The new Parker record on Leo, Live at Les Instants Chavires, is Parker's most
successful foray into electronics yet. Other recent Parker faves include Most
Materiall (Matchless), 2 CDs of duos with Eddie Prevost, and Natives And
Aliens (Leo), with Barry Guy, Paul Lytton, and Marilyn Crispell.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:54:21 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: Re: Weird Little Boy
Julian wrote:
> Stuff on the Circle Maker (just to take an example) don't really take that
> much effort either, they just come out sounding nicer, that's all.
Well, one obvious question: How do you know they "don't really take that
much effort"? I take it you're not merely referring to the sweat factor,
a quaint notion that Braxton, for many years now, has been attempting to
put to rest (though, I'd imagine several of the pieces on 'Circle Maker'
drew forth a few beads!),
Are you implying that simply because many of the songs therein are
beautiful in a traditional manner, that they must have been easy to
compose? Or that because JZ produces these melodies in such profusion
that they must pose no more difficulty to him than burping? I'm no
musician, but as a painter, I'll tell you that slapping something with
'angst' on a canvas is a walk in the park compared to creating something
that looks as if it were effortless.
So, until every other downtown wannabe starts producing stuff the
caliber of the Masada songbook, I'm quite willing to give old Zorno the
benefit of the doubt.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:31:58 EDT
From: HSpaceboy <HSpaceboy@aol.com>
Subject: Electronic horns
I had the same Barcus Berry transducer pick up that Miles used installed on my
trombone (it involved drilling into the mouthpiece). The damn thing only
picked up the slide gliding from position to position and then it died.
Anyway, if anyone knows of a less painful way to use a pick up with brass I'd
appreciate your suggestions.
- -Mark
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:30:24 +1000
From: "Julian Curwin" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[3]:Cobra
> On the younger generation side, "free improv" means what the two words
> imply (as Peter does): do what you want and no rules at all.
The definition that I was following when I was talking about my experiences
with "free improv" was a slight variation on what you seem to imply here. I
wouldn't say there are no rules. You obviously have to make an effort to
"fit in" or complement the others' playing.
And the people I was doing the improv with mostly had the musical ability
to do this, and not just "do what you want". I mean, I guess you have to
have a strong sense of rhythm, and usually perfect or relative pitch can
help - most of us were jazz musicians so we had these things covered pretty
well.
So, not wanting to sound pretentious or anything, I guess it sounded pretty
good. I would imagine something with absolutely no rules could sound a bit
off. Do you mean the players could totally ignore the other players if they
wanted to?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:31:42 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Re[4]:Cobra
<<
On the younger generation side, "free improv" means what the two words
imply (as Peter does): do what you want and no rules at all.
>>
Part of that is my lack of knowledge of the history, which is a shame. I tend
to use free improv and free jazz interchangably.
<<
There is a popular belief (...) that people not knowing each others can meet
for one evening, and, without rehearsing at all and no predefined rules, can
produce "magic moments with telepathic interaction". I also believed that
for a long time, until I realized that the best "free improv" was done by
artists that really knew each others very well and improvised in a fairly
well-defined form (because you can immediately recognize it). For example,
the trio Parker/Guy/Lytton is usually considered as one of the best free
improv group. Needless to say that what this group does does not match at
all the second definition of "free improv".
>>
See, I think that these magic moments can happen, but it's certainly not a
given. In fact, I'd say it's usually the other way, which is why I railed
against free improv for so long. The best free improv, as I said, comes with a
certain connectedness. The best way to get that is to practice. I used to be
in a band where we'd break into free moments and they only got better and better
as time went on because we'd practice playing free together. It's a good thing.
<<
> exactly that, improv and free. I admit it can sound better or worse to the
> audience if you approach it a different way, but usually from what I've
> experienced, the group has just as much fun no matter what happens
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And this is the point, right? That the band has fun... No matter what the
audience can think?
>>
Well, that is being a little cynical. Who says you need an audience at all?
Some of the best jamming moments I've ever had has been when myself and ten of
my friends gather in a room and "improv". Usually it's just noise, but
sometimes it's amazing, and the point is primarily that we have fun. Would I
want to inflict that on anyone? No.
Also, I'm not propping fun over musical experience, but if you're not having a
good time, or enjoying what you're doing, chances are the music is going to
suffer.
I dunno. I agree though that practice is necessary for serious free improv and
that the magical moments of a momentary midnight meeting are mostly myth.
(How's that for alliteration?)
===
<<
So, not wanting to sound pretentious or anything, I guess it sounded pretty
good. I would imagine something with absolutely no rules could sound a bit
off. Do you mean the players could totally ignore the other players if they
wanted to?
>>
We always said that's a viable option just like playing nothing is a viable
option, as long as you're making a decision to do that and are not doing it out
of laziness.
Doing it because you're not paying attention naturally misses the point of what
we were trying to do.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:09:18 +1000
From: "Julian Curwin" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Weird Little Boy
Firstly, the point I was trying to make is this: The fact that Zorn has a
book of hundreds of Masada tunes tells me that he can kind of produce a lot
of them like burping. I would say that a lot of what "makes" a Masada tune
is the improvisation. Obviously some of the more complex ones (like say
Tahah, with it's insane time sig changes) might have taken more effort to
work out.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that Zorn, or any accomplished musician, can
possibly make music that sounds pretty basic or even "half-hearted" (I know
these two have totally different connotations) but there can still be
something, some beauty there. I remember just a few months ago we had a
discussion about Frisell's latest release, some saying it was less
adventurous than usual, but others saying it is good music, and that's all
that counts.
So I was applying this idea to Zorn's "noise"-ier side like Weird Little
Boy. The whole album could have been recorded live in an hour or something,
in other words they might have just rattled it off without the slightest
bit of effort, but it could still sound miraculous to some fans. So really
I was saying that overall the sound should be judged and not the effort or
complexity involved.
Interesting this should come up because a lecturer at my university was
trying to come up with a way to "grade" jazz solos. A big debate arose,
someone saying there has to be dynamic contrast, rhythmic variety, use of
certain scales and all this crap, and then us jazz musicians spoke up,
saying it should just "sound good".
> Stuff on the Circle Maker (just to take an example) don't really take
that
> > much effort either, they just come out sounding nicer, that's all.
>
> Well, one obvious question: How do you know they "don't really take that
> much effort"? I take it you're not merely referring to the sweat factor,
> a quaint notion that Braxton, for many years now, has been attempting to
> put to rest (though, I'd imagine several of the pieces on 'Circle Maker'
> drew forth a few beads!),
>
> Are you implying that simply because many of the songs therein are
> beautiful in a traditional manner, that they must have been easy to
> compose? Or that because JZ produces these melodies in such profusion
> that they must pose no more difficulty to him than burping? I'm no
> musician, but as a painter, I'll tell you that slapping something with
> 'angst' on a canvas is a walk in the park compared to creating something
> that looks as if it were effortless.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:32:16 PDT
From: "Silent Watcher" <silent_watcher@hotmail.com>
Subject: BIG
Music Boulevard has a new Blind Idiot God album entitled "Rock"
scheduled for release on May 19 on Avant. Does anyone have any info on
this?
SW
For Sale/Want list and Laswell Discography at
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 13:20:28 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: The Violent Death of Dutch Schultz
Noticed JZ referencing this piece in an interview culled, apparently,
from the CD issue of LOCUS SOLUS. Sounds like it might have been one
of his pieces from around the time of the Monk and Weill tributes,
when he first had access to a serious recording studio.
Anyone know if it has ever seen a smidgen of the light of day?
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:44:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joshua A Miller <umillj08@mcl.ucsb.edu>
Subject: Re: The Violent Death of Dutch Schultz
yes, it's on locus solus.
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote:
>
> Noticed JZ referencing this piece in an interview culled, apparently,
> from the CD issue of LOCUS SOLUS. Sounds like it might have been one
> of his pieces from around the time of the Monk and Weill tributes,
> when he first had access to a serious recording studio.
>
> Anyone know if it has ever seen a smidgen of the light of day?
>
> Brian Olewnick
>
>
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:37:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: jdschone@sas.upenn.edu (John D Schonewolf)
Subject: Locus Solus
Dear Listservers,
I just purchased Locus Solus yesterday, and must say that it is amazing.
So, I was wondering what other albums in the Zorn discography I could
turn to in this vein? Zorn mentioned this project as being a precursor to
Painkiller and a few other projects. How similar are Painkiller and Locus
Solus (obviously I have never heard any Painkiller)?
For Brian- the song The Violent Death of Dutch Schultz is track 35 on
Locus Solus.
Thanks for any help and direction.
Jack Schonewolf
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:50:08 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: WAYNE HORVITZ
On Fri, 24 Apr 98 08:21:20 -0300 hulinare@bemberg.com.ar wrote:
>
> Hello "Zornies",
>
> Fortunately Wayne Horvitz continues to put out fine albums here and
> there but unfortunately those albums are just below the surface of
> mainstream -public attention.
> I think Horvitz is one of the best composers and musicians of the decade
> so I ask myself if any of you would like to comment:
Horvitz' problem is that he is neither commercial or totally obscure. It
is unlikely that you will scare your friends with any of his records; and
I would not recommend them either as background music when you have a
date. Not falling in either one of these categories dooms you to almost
total obscurity (not to mention that he likes to write songs -- a sin
for which there is little indulgence).
But I am sure that if he was to die tomorrow, there would be plenty of
e-mail asking for advices about what to get...
> 1)Is there any live recording of Wayne Horvitz's The President?
Not to my knowledge.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:44:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Locus Solus
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, John D Schonewolf wrote:
> I just purchased Locus Solus yesterday, and must say that it is amazing.
> So, I was wondering what other albums in the Zorn discography I could
> turn to in this vein?
Not much, sadly. _Locus Solus_ is probably the earliest recorded example
of Zorn's short sharp shock approach to improv, and of his use of rock as
a big influence. But Naked City and Painkiller primarily reference metal,
and don't play off popular song forms to the same extent. Slan might be
the closest thing I've heard in Zorn's output, but there are only a few
compilation tracks out there.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:47:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Weird Little Boy
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, JonAbbey2 wrote:
> I think it depends on the artist. Evan Parker puts out as many records as
> Braxton or Zorn and manages to maintain a remarkably high level of quality and
> originality.
My Parker collection is spotty, but he seems to put out mediocrities too.
The duo with Sainkho Namtchylak last year on Victo comes to mind. I
couldn't say how his ration of good:mediocre compares to Zorn's.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:56:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[3]:Cobra
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> There is a popular belief (...) that people not knowing each others can meet
> for one evening, and, without rehearsing at all and no predefined rules, can
> produce "magic moments with telepathic interaction". I also believed that
> for a long time, until I realized that the best "free improv" was done by
> artists that really knew each others very well and improvised in a fairly
> well-defined form (because you can immediately recognize it).
This seems overstated, and I've got the Company albums to prove it.
Obviously, "first encounters" run a risk of just making a mess, but I'm
not convinced that this is any more a problem then the risk involved in
the latter case of falling into cliches. (Another example of great
"first encounters" just occurred to me: the wonderful series of Cecil
Taylor albums on FMP recently discussed on this list.)
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:00:43 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Re[3]:Cobra
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > There is a popular belief (...) that people not knowing each others can meet
> > for one evening, and, without rehearsing at all and no predefined rules, can
> > produce "magic moments with telepathic interaction". I also believed that
> > for a long time, until I realized that the best "free improv" was done by
> > artists that really knew each others very well and improvised in a fairly
> > well-defined form (because you can immediately recognize it).
>
> This seems overstated, and I've got the Company albums to prove it.
> Obviously, "first encounters" run a risk of just making a mess, but I'm
> not convinced that this is any more a problem then the risk involved in
> the latter case of falling into cliches. (Another example of great
> "first encounters" just occurred to me: the wonderful series of Cecil
> Taylor albums on FMP recently discussed on this list.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you believe that you have to play with Taylor on the same stage to know
how to play with him :-).
My statement above does not apply with masters of improvisation that are so
well documented on records that playing with them for the first time could
hardly be called a... blind date.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:00:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: chad edwards <chadhead@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [none]
1. Why would anyone choose to have sex with a corpse?
Well, I don't know about you but I've always had a
fear of rejection. From the very
first time I sunk into naked, dead flesh, I knew I
would always find a taker if I stayed
with this crowd. Suddenly I could have any woman I
wanted, regardless of age, size, or
social status. The only thing was she had to be dead.
A small price to pay for so much
top-notch tail!
2. Does the stage of decay affect the sensation?
This is truly a difficult question. A fresh dead body
is just like having sex with a real
live girl (only colder) but for a couple of weeks
before the real decay begins, you're
going to have your work cut out for you. Rest assured
though, that the benefits far
outweigh the extra work it takes to get in there!
Then, however, as heavy decay
progresses, it becomes easier and easier to get in --
Although at this stage, I must
advise that it doesn't feel very good at all and you
run the risk of getting sick from
corpse germs.
3. Isn't necrophilia illegal?
Yes, the world over. However, there are up sides: For
instance, a necrophilia charge
cancels out a statutory rape charge! Try THAT with a
still-alive girl!
4. Isn't necrophilia immoral?
It depends on your religion. Right now the
Bolshnavanian Orthodox faith is the only
religion that not only approves of, but encourages
necrophilia as well as countless
other deviant sexual practices.
5. How can I find out if necrophilia is for me?
If you're a normal male with healthy urges,
necrophilia is not for you. If you are an
angry loner, or a widower, or a liberal democrat, or
just completely off your nut... Give
it a try!
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #344
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