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1998-04-24
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #342
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Saturday, April 25 1998 Volume 02 : Number 342
In this issue:
-
Re: Re[2]:Cobra
Re[3]:Cobra
RE: Mondo Mezzarro
Frisell, Baron
Re: CIMP recording
Re: Re[2]:Cobra
Re: PainKiller's "unsung heroes"
Re: CIMP recording
Re: jcoa
Re: PainKiller's "unsung heroes"
Max Roach Quartet
Kristallnacht
Re: Kristallnacht
ground zero volume 3
Recent Goodies
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:34:32 +1000
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]:Cobra
> So, I imagine, like any true good jazz combo, and especially with free
improv, I
> think, they have to really connect for it to have meaning. So maybe your
group
> just wasn't connecting.
But you can't do it "wrong" can you? I remember when I was performing some
free improv somewhere, someone told me I "should" be playing something
based on this chord, because that's what he was doing. I didn't really
understand what he was thinking, if it's free improv, it should really be
exactly that, improv and free. I admit it can sound better or worse to the
audience if you approach it a different way, but usually from what I've
experienced, the group has just as much fun no matter what happens
(obviously unless they've got some guy like Zorn lecturing them in the
interval).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:40:31 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Re[3]:Cobra
But you can't do it "wrong" can you? I remember when I was performing some
free improv somewhere, someone told me I "should" be playing something
based on this chord, because that's what he was doing. I didn't really
understand what he was thinking, if it's free improv, it should really be
exactly that, improv and free. I admit it can sound better or worse to the
audience if you approach it a different way, but usually from what I've
experienced, the group has just as much fun no matter what happens
(obviously unless they've got some guy like Zorn lecturing them in the
interval).
[pnr]
Well, I wouldn't say wrong as in, wrong note, like the guy you were playing
with. Sure, that's not free-improv then, is it? No, I mean wrong as in, not
connecting and playing WITH each other. One of the big criticisms you see on
this list is "detached" which makes for not-so-hot music. For the free-improv
thing to really click, the musicians really need to be listening to each other
and reacting to what the other members are playing. This is where you get the
jazz "dialogue" thing going and that connectedness, to me anyway, is the heart
of good improv.
So, yeah, play whatever notes you want to play, but if we're listening to each
other and we're connecting, it comes through in the music.
That's my opinion anyway.
PeterR
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 01:04:06 GMT
From: al.t@mtnhdw.com (Al T)
Subject: RE: Mondo Mezzarro
Hi,
I sent a private message to James Douglas Knox and received a two replies...one
of which he asked me to forward. I'm doing so and including an excerpt from the
first in hopes he doesn't mind me forwarding that as well.
I'm doing this, first because he is offering what seems a genuine apology, and,
second, because his arguments seem perfectly well-reasoned once the invective is
removed.
Please note that I'm not necessarily endorsing any particular point and second I
read the digest and am generally a few days behind so that trying to argue with
me about something will have some definite turtle and hare aspects.
====== message two - whole
====== in it he quotes and replies to a gg msg
(Dear Al,
sorry to bother you again. I just looked over the archive and found this.
I think I'm entitled a right of reply: I've tried to effect a more civil
tone than in the past. Would you mind to forward it to the zorn-list? I'd
appreciate it, but if not, no matter)
I've no interest at all in reviving this argument, which I still don't
think should ever have occured in the first place. And apologies (all) for
my ill-considered and inchoate invective. But I was upset; not least by Mr
Grella's imputation about my racial extraction (something Mr Grella might
have expressed with perfect diction, but could only be guaranteed to
provoke me. Is an offensive statement more "reasonable" when that
statement veils itself in correct grammar and punctuation? Or vice versa?
I find it curious how many people on this list are so *hung up* on
normative codes of communication - standards used to invalidate marginal
culture, and indeed, any expression of "illegitimate" thought or emotion,
by consensus culture.
***********************************************************************
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: James & his Giant Bitch
Date: 16 Apr 1998 08:50:37 -0800
(snip)
> we can't
> take Mezzrow's statement as a proven quality for the entire culture. Of
I'm sorry; I never intended any such thing. I simply thought it was sad
how much self-hatred he seemed to have (or at least: expressed in his
book) And, as I've noted elsewhere: I certainly recognise the possibility
that those are the sentiments of his ghostwriter, not even of Mezz'
himself. But, from the start, my feelings were simply of sadness for
Mezzrow as an individual. I imagine his self-esteem problems were the
thing that directed him to spend so much of his life destroying himself
with drugs, *instead of* recording and arranging the music he had such a
gift for.
Beyond that: I simply didn't realise it was unreasonable to draw an
analogue between this recurrent theme in Mezzrow's book and (some of) the
work of Anthony Coleman (e.g.), viz Selfhaters, and that quote from Adorno
on jazz. But perhaps I wasn't explicit enough in drawing that connection -
I just thought it was obvious.
(snip)
> views. Agree with what Mezzrow says, but just because he says it
> doesn't make it true, or RIGHT.
I don't agree with what Mezzrow says - I have never said that I did. But I
do think "Really the Blues" is a reflection of what Mezzrow thought, felt,
and experienced during his life: if not as an expression of "objective
truth" (your term, not mine), then as a creative and intuitive response to
his environment. If that later is true for this, or any other artist - and
I think it is - then what of "social context" (my term, not yours) which
you seemed to think bears no relation to music?
I can understand that Mezzrow's feelings about his Jewish background are
contentious. But I tried (not very succesfully, obviously) to make clear
that those were simply his personal feelings, as expressed in his book
(and so, maybe, more the work of his ghostwriter: for maybe it was he
(I can't remember offhand: Bernard Wolfe?) who clutched this idealised
image of Afro-american culture so close to his bossom). I don't feel like
that about Jewish culture myself: and I mentioned Mezzrow because I felt
he might have been some small kind of a precendent for Zorn: a Jewish guy,
alienated by mainstream American society, with a vocation for music per
se but, more specifically, a variant of jazz.
Sorry, again, that I lost my block. But imputing Mezzrow's ideas (or, an
ill-expressed version of some of the things in "his" book) is one
thing. Attributing a *race* to me: frankly, I found that highly
offensive. Dead-sorry I got so wound up about it (and appalled that
in my anger I responded in turn).
======= msg 1 excerpted
======= the >'s quote me
> You know, I'm not entirely sure what the points of disagreement between you
and
> this Grella guy are. (Something about how Mezzrow related to his jewish
> heritage?)
The whole thing is stupid. When I first mentioned Mezzrow, I just made
some off-hand remark about self-hatred, and his identification with (an
idealised image of) afro-american culture over his own Jewish roots. I was
thinking: in relation to (Tzadik recording artist) Anthony Coleman's
"Selfhaters", and the quote Coleman used from Theodor Adorno on the sleeve
of that disc. Didn't intend any harm.
Grella seems to have taken umbrage with me saying something about cultural
heritage. OK, granted; I can understand how this can be a volatile
subject. But I tried to explain that I was just relaying Mezz's express
point of view, as it reads crystal-clear in his book.
Grella certainly got upset about my suggestion that Mezzrow's work might
have had any social context. Well, dunno; at that point I just dismissed
him out-of-hand. That's just daft. And my next (and final) posting
on the subject I really lost my cool. Sorry to have descended into a
morass of ill-expressed emotion...
> But your approach to the discussion isn't helping make your points. Your
insults
> don't make your point clearer, nor make his (whatever it was) any less
tenable,
> or develop anything beyond inclining me to write you off as a flaming asshole
> and simply gong your postings. Which means I don't even hear your side. And I
> would just as soon hear it if I don't have to wade through three or four
lines
> of you screaming fuck for every sentence that contains some actual content.
Sorry if I was inchoate and offensive - I feel perfectly sick about that
myself. But I'm off that damn list now, and don't intend to be back for a
while.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:16:11 -0700
From: "Patrick Stockton" <sheepherder@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Frisell, Baron
incase there are any portlanders (even southern Wash.), on this newgroup,
Bill Frisell and Joey Baron are playing tonight a t the Alladin (east
side). anyone else know of this lineup? i figured he was touring the
"Gone.....train" lineup. at least thats what he was doing in the seattle
area over the last few weeks.
thanks,
patrick in portland
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:21:10 -0300 (ADT)
From: Nathaniel Dorward <ndorward@is2.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: CIMP recording
a further 2 cents: I used to run a jazz radio show & made a point of never
playing CIMP discs. The volume level would sometimes drop so low a
listener could think the station had dropped off the air; at other times
it would be quite high. Eventually I got tired of twiddling the volume
knob up and down. --N
*
Nate Dorward (ndorward@is2.dal.ca)
website: http://is2.dal.ca/~ndorward/
*
And I hear
what's missing there
music is core of the missing
the code of fly time
--Clark Coolidge
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:08:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]:Cobra
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Julian wrote:
> I admit it can sound better or worse to the
> audience if you approach it a different way, but usually from what I've
> experienced, the group has just as much fun no matter what happens
> (obviously unless they've got some guy like Zorn lecturing them in the
> interval).
There may not be any "rules" but most free improvisors I've dealt with
certainly think they can play well or badly. And I generally feel pretty
miserable after a bad performance, and embarrassed as hell to be on stage
during one.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <jwnarves@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: PainKiller's "unsung heroes"
> Does anyone have information regarding the artists who designed all of
> PainKiller's cover art - e.g.: Tomoyo T.L. (KARATH=RAZAR)?
...not to mention Locus Solus and (i think) Heretic, Naked City, Leng
T'Che, Grand Guignol...
- -jascha
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:08:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <jwnarves@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: CIMP recording
> a further 2 cents: I used to run a jazz radio show & made a point of never
> playing CIMP discs. The volume level would sometimes drop so low a
> listener could think the station had dropped off the air; at other times
> it would be quite high. Eventually I got tired of twiddling the volume
> knob up and down. --N
a radio station without a compressor??
- -jascha
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:35:23 -0600
From: malczews@stars1.ast.lmco.com (Frank Malczewski)
Subject: Re: jcoa
More Kharma titles:
Roland Alexander: Live At The Axis (PK-5)
Jerome Cooper, Kalaparusha & Frank Lowe: Positions (PK 3/4)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:11:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gauthier Michelle A <7mag2@qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: Re: PainKiller's "unsung heroes"
The artist is a woman named Tanaka Tomoyo-- she lives in NYC. She is very
talented-- did tons of Zorn's albums, as well as designing Mr. Bungle's
first album. I'm not sure what she is up to presently...
The name KARATH=RAZAR is the name of her company.
m.
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, ia zha nah er vesen wrote:
> > Does anyone have information regarding the artists who designed all of
> > PainKiller's cover art - e.g.: Tomoyo T.L. (KARATH=RAZAR)?
>
> ...not to mention Locus Solus and (i think) Heretic, Naked City, Leng
> T'Che, Grand Guignol...
>
> -jascha
>
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:51:13 -0400
From: "Snap" <qfwfqf@email.msn.com>
Subject: Max Roach Quartet
Would anyone know, by chance, of a hardbop piece by the Max Roach Quartet in
which Mr. Roach projects a frenetic drum solo/ostinato over snippets of a
Martin Luther King Jr. speech? I have the song recorded completely, and,
third-shift disk jockeys being as negligent as they can be, no title. A clue
would be deeply appreciated.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:54:37 +0200
From: "Felix" <jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Kristallnacht
I just got "Kristallnacht" and am wondering how the hell did I miss it in
the past. The album is simply geniusly composed. It depresses you in a way
that you can't help it. I dare to say that I like "Kristallnacht" better
than (dare I say it, dare I say it) "Circle Maker" (Wait! Don't flame me
yet!!). I mean, Circle Maker is very very good, but it's basically
re-interpretation of already interpreted musics. While "Kristallnacht",
well, the person who advised it to me (sorry, can't remember who he/she was
but thanks alot, anyway), was right about the "infamous second track". Never
Again is to hear and feel the pain of those people during the Holocaust. I
kind of perceive Kristallnacht as Zorn's dedication to the dead in the
WW2... Simply genius... Simply genius...
I also picked up Kiss My Jazz's latest and was wondering how many here know
and apreciate Kiss My Jazz.
Felix
Patiently Waiting for Winter
jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:17:03 -0400
From: "Snap" <qfwfqf@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Kristallnacht
Kristallnacht indeed is a melancholically lovely album; I claim the first
track, "Shtetl", to be my favorite Zorn piece ever. Unsettling. I may stand
alone when saying this, but I always saw the Masada material as an extension
of Kristallnacht, especially the chamber pieces on Bar Kokhba and The Circle
Maker. Maybe that was the idea, or maybe not. Dunno.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Felix <jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt>
To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 7:04 AM
Subject: Kristallnacht
>I just got "Kristallnacht" and am wondering how the hell did I miss it in
>the past. The album is simply geniusly composed. It depresses you in a way
>that you can't help it. I dare to say that I like "Kristallnacht" better
>than (dare I say it, dare I say it) "Circle Maker" (Wait! Don't flame me
>yet!!). I mean, Circle Maker is very very good, but it's basically
>re-interpretation of already interpreted musics. While "Kristallnacht",
>well, the person who advised it to me (sorry, can't remember who he/she was
>but thanks alot, anyway), was right about the "infamous second track".
Never
>Again is to hear and feel the pain of those people during the Holocaust. I
>kind of perceive Kristallnacht as Zorn's dedication to the dead in the
>WW2... Simply genius... Simply genius...
>
>I also picked up Kiss My Jazz's latest and was wondering how many here know
>and apreciate Kiss My Jazz.
>
>Felix
>Patiently Waiting for Winter
>jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt
>
>
>-
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:42:28 -0400
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: ground zero volume 3
Anyone heard volume 3 of the Ground Zero Consume series yet? Reviews
please?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:29:06 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: Recent Goodies
Coupla new things and three that have been on my list for a while:
AMM--Newfoundland Finally able to take them off the top of my list of
groups I hadn't gotten around to really hearing (I'd ordered this from
Cadence about three years ago but they were out of it at the time) and
now, of course, I'm kicking myself. Gorgeous record, creates a very
unique sense of space. Much more tonal than I expected; is this perhaps
one of their more 'accessible' recordings? I do think the proceedings
could have been cut off at around an hour, just before the final loudish
section where, IMHO, the playing 'degenerates' into a more standard free
improv type of thing.
Derek Bailey/Joelle Leandre--No Waiting Pretty nice, Bailey in fine
form. I'm still not convinced by Leandre's playing. Her sound seems
lacking in individuality and richness to these ears. I've heard her in
several contexts now (though never as 'leader') and nothing's really
stood out. Any suggestions?
Dragon Blue--Hades Park New Avant release with a band led (?) by singer
Tenko along with Yoshihide, Kato Hideki and two members of Tipographica.
A hit and miss affair; when the band gets rolling, it chugs along
nicely, greatly abetted by Otomo's creative turntables. Other times, it
gets a bit static, the guitar and drums getting into kind of a, how
should I describe it, post-71 Zappa mode--not my cup of tea.
Mats Gustaffson--Parrot Fish Eye My first Gustaffson and I'll have to
withhold judgment on his playing, not knowing if this is a typical
outing. I get more a sense of technical exercises than deep, rich
musicality here, a common problem I find with a lot of younger free
players (sometimes referred to a borahbergmanitis), but I'd be
interested in hearing him in other contexts.
Iannis Xenakis--Kraanerg This is the Etcetera recording, not the DJ
Spooky version (anyone care to compare the two?). Somewhat less
elemental and earth-shattering than I'd been led to believe, but it does
build up a head of steam. To me, the recording seems flat and even
fluctuating at times, though perhaps thats part of the original taped
portion of the score. It strikes me as something that could be
outstandingly performed by an orchestra of strong improvisers, say the
LJCO. In fact, it would seem a natural fit for Guy.
Some items I saw but didn't make the cut this time:
Joe McPhee As Serious As Your Life (hatology)
Eyvind Kang (the new Tzadik release)
Luc Ferrari " " "
JZ Weird Little Boy I don't know, but something puts me
off about this.
Re-issues of note that will eventually make their way into my
collection:
Ornette Science Fiction and Skies of America--both on Japanese
Sony for $22 at Other Music. Anyone know how good a
remastering job was done on these?
R. Mitchell Old/Quartet Also a Japanese issue
W. Breuker Doodzonde/Twee Vroumen Two fun soundtracks from the
early 70's.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #342
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