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1998-04-23
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #341
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, April 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 341
In this issue:
-
Re: improvised electronics (was kondo et al)
RE: Gregg Bendian; was Re: Cecil Taylor
Re: improvised electronics (was kondo et al)
Re: CIMP recording
Re: Well, You Needn't
Re: David S. Ware
Re: Recent goodies
Re:Cobra
Re: CIMP recording
Re: more mori
Re: New Mr. Bungle?
Re: CIMP recording
WAYNE HORVITZ
Re[2]: Well, You Needn't
Re[2]:Cobra
Matthew Ostrowski at Roulette
PainKiller's "unsung heroes"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:26:24 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: improvised electronics (was kondo et al)
Scott Handley writes:
> So what other examples of improvised music meeting/using/being used by
> electronics can people think of?
>
You could go all the way back to the original source, Musica Elletronica
Viva, although I have absolutely no idea what might be in print
nowadays, if anything at all. What I own is a two LP set that adds
Steve Lacy and Karl Berger to the group, but that was perhaps their
final incarnation, except for the odd "reunion" event here and there.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:02:33 -0400
From: "Francisca" <monsalve@interaccess.cl>
Subject: RE: Gregg Bendian; was Re: Cecil Taylor
If I may ask, what is so despicable about the CIMP approach to recording? I
have never heard any of their releases -- so I wouldn't know.
Francisca
Monsalve@interaccess.cl
- ----------
De: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
A: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
CC: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>; zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
Asunto: Re: Gregg Bendian; was Re: Cecil Taylor
Fecha: Thursday, April 23, 1998 2:21 AM
Ken Waxman wrote:
> The prize, to me, is "Counterparts" (CIMP)
I agree based on a live gig I heard, but I depise the CIMP approach to
recording and can hardly stand to hear this disc.
> "Interzone" (Eremite) is more problematic since Gregg limits
> himself to vibes and glokenspiel and besides Dresser the CD also features
> Nels Cline on guitar and Alex Cline on drums/percussion.
That's no limitation in my book. The Nels/Alex axis is an amazing thing to
behold (behear?). When I heard them live recently electric bassist Stomu
Takeishi replaced Dresser. Dresser is amazing, it is agreed all around,
yet
Gregg seemed to feel that the inclusion of an *electric* bass virtuoso
opened
up a whole 'nuther can of worms for the band...
Of the recordings of Gregg I have, "Noir," "In Florescence" and Peter
Br÷tzmann's "Sacred Scrape" are my favorites. I like Interzone live but
have
mixed feelings about the disc. I'm looking forward to the "Interstellar
Spaces" recording quite a lot. The disc with Bailey is quite fine but
there
are many Bailey discs I like better...
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
- ----------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:28:21 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: improvised electronics (was kondo et al)
On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:26:24 -0800 George Grella wrote:
>
> Scott Handley writes:
>
>
> > So what other examples of improvised music meeting/using/being used by
> > electronics can people think of?
> >
>
> You could go all the way back to the original source, Musica Elletronica
> Viva, although I have absolutely no idea what might be in print
> nowadays, if anything at all. What I own is a two LP set that adds
> Steve Lacy and Karl Berger to the group, but that was perhaps their
^^^^^^^^^^
That's the one on Horo. I know people who would give up on everything to put
their hand on it :-).
> final incarnation, except for the odd "reunion" event here and there.
Just a warning: flee like the plague the following one (and it seems that
there is another one by the same incarnation of MEV):
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** - LEAVE THE CITY: Musica Elettronica Viva
Actuel Volume 35.
1/ Message (M.E.V.)
2/ Cosmic Communion (M.E.V.)
Recorded June 1970
Ivan Coaquette; Patricia Coaquette; Birgit Knabe; Nona Howard (side 2 only);
Stephano Giolitti.
1971 (?) - Byg Record, 529.335 (LP)
1997 - Spalax (France), CD 14968 (CD)
Note: the sleeve is of very strong mystico-Indian inspiration (effect of the
late 60's, I guess :-).
Note: explanation from Frederic Rzewski:
In 1968/69 MEV experimented with audience participation and took on a number
of new younger people, many of whom were not musicians. We wanted to see
how far we could extend the idea of free improvisation, surrounding the core
group with people who happened to be around. The group expanded and spawned
separate communities. In the early 70's there were three MEV's: one in
Rome, led by Alvin Curran; one in New York, where Richard Teitelbaum & I
were based; and one in Paris, which was organized by the Coaquettes. Birgit
and Nona were members of the Living Theatre, with whom we also hung out a
lot, and Stefano was one of the younger acolytes. The record you are
talking about was a kind of hippie child who chose MEV as its identity.
Nobody ever found out really who was in MEV. At that time, it was part of a
movement, and that part of it that was a part of the movement lived and died
with that movement.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:05:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: CIMP recording
On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
> What is the CIMP approach? I was looking at an ad for them in CODA last
> night and it looked like they had some good stuff. Should I beware?
Basically the approach is two mikes, no fiddling with the mix. People
seem to either love it or hate it. Since others who have chimed in are in
the latter camp, I'll mount a few words in its defense. I think these
recordings sound more like live jazz really sounds than any other
recordings I've ever heard. I've nothing against studio illusionism, but
I'm gald someone's recording this way, and, on records like Frank Lowe's
_Bodies and Soul_, it really pays off. My only complaint is that this
really puts a limitation on the volume range at which these records can be
listened to. Put it on much lower than the recording level, and any
upright bass disappears. It wouldn't surprise me if it also varies more
noticeably from one stereo system to another than most recordings, though
it sounds fine on my very low-end system.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:09:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Well, You Needn't
On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, DR S WILKIE wrote:
> I haven't heard any of his big fight
> records or concerts, but I rather like the idea: two free
> improvisers, in the ring, rounds of three minutes of "fighting"
> stopped by the bell. This dates back to the 80s, I believe. Did
> Zorn and Previte steal it for Euclid's Nightmare?
While they weren't duos, the performances on _Locus Solus_ from 1983 are
already using very short timespans, and neither these nor the Zorn/Previte
duos sound like fights to me, so I doubt it. Any idea how the Jenkins
tracks are supposed to be fights?
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:14:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: David S. Ware
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Douglas Tapia wrote:
> You know, I really dug all the David S. Ware recordings I had ever heard,
> and I even own a few. Then, I saw the group live a couple of years back:
<report of stunningly bad performance snipped>
Sounds like Ware can be pretty spotty live. I saw him in Pittsburgh a
couple of years ago, just after Suzie Ibarra joined the group. Shipp,
Parker, and Ibarra played very well (although they sounded like they were
still adjusting to the new lineup) but Ware's own playing was pretty
dreadful: anemic and with very little sense of development, not nearly up
to the level of his recordings I've heard.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Recent goodies
On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Paul Chavez wrote:
> Someone had mentioned buying Pangaea. What's this one like?
It's a step on from _Dark Magus_. Less relentlessly funky/noisy. It's
got some lovely, almost ambient passages with Sonny Fortune on flute.
Some was asking a while back about the "perfect" album. For me this is as
close as it gets.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:22:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re:Cobra
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote:
> I think Cobra as much theatre as it is music. I would not hesitate to ever see
> it live, if I got the chance again. Listening to a recording of cobra would be
> like listening to a recording of Stomp, as far as I'm concerned, maybe
> interesting, but you're only getting half the point.
I was actually disappointed when I finally saw it live. Watching the
prompter made the musical logic seem more arbitrary than listening to the
music alone (or maybe the performance I saw was particularly musically
incoherent). On the Hat Hut and Tokyo versions, some performers seem to
be trying to keep some kind of continuity going through all the jumpcuts.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:22:01 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <hewins@synsolutions.com>
Subject: Re: CIMP recording
Tim Berne's Screwgun recordings are this way (at least the bloodcount) and
I think they all sound great. 2 cents.
Dan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:29:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: more mori
I realize this is old news, but I'm playing catchup and I wanted to put my
two cents in on this one.
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Brent Burton wrote:
> as far as "electronica" goes, i don't think anything i've heard mori do
> on drum machines can touch autechre, who compose tracks that sound like
> computers dying rhythmically - shards of sound. i didn't feel mori did
> *enough* with the sampled drum sounds at that show or on the recent
> _painted desert_ - they just sounded like drum machines. stiff.
What I love about Mori's work (esp. _Garden_) is that she lets the drum
machines sound like what they are instead of disguising them as something
else. If you don't want it to sound like a drum machine, why use one?
but then
> again her approach seems completely different than autechre's.
Precisely.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:18:21 -0700
From: "Patrick Stockton" <sheepherder@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: New Mr. Bungle?
in earlier messages it was stated that the "new" Mr. bungle comes in a
shitty cardboard case and is not worth buying. the former being true does
not necessarily guarantee the truth of the latter. sure it comes in a
shitty case but it is definitly worth buying for fans of the band or Mike
Patton completists.
i picked it up at a local CD store here in portland for $10 i think. the
clerk warned me that it was only four-track outtakes from the bands early
days, which is evident from the 1987 copywrite and the picture of a
younger, fatter Patton.
i bought it anyway, thinking it might have some music worth having.
additionally it had a '87 copywrite yet i had never seen it anywhere until
11 yrs after its alleged release. all things considered, it seemed to be
something worth getting for 10 bucks.
anyway...... it is valuable to any Bungle fans who might want to hear where
it all came from. the songs are decidedly simpler and rawer, yet they
still all have the essential Patton quality he brings to everything he
works on. some of it is similar to "Merry go bye bye" (last song on disco
vollante) except far less polished.
if it is getting pulled off the shelves you might think of picking up a
copy before you are stuck with a shitty recording of a shitty recording.
late
patrick in portland
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:56:52 -0400
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: CIMP recording
Christopher Hamilton wrote:
> > What is the CIMP approach? I was looking at an ad for them in CODA la=
st
> > night and it looked like they had some good stuff. Should I beware?
>
> Basically the approach is two mikes, no fiddling with the mix. People
> seem to either love it or hate it. Since others who have chimed in are=
in
> the latter camp, I'll mount a few words in its defense. [Succinct and
> intelligent defense snipped]
Chris's words re: audio verit=E9 are very well chosen and illustrate the =
idea
and the sound as well as anything I've read. That's been the general
reception with the audiophile market, I would add, and I won't dispute th=
e
validity. I also appreciate that Chris mentions his low-end system, beca=
use I
was about to suggest that perhaps having the kind of top of the line syst=
em
that North Country Audio itself promotes (not that I'm implying any confl=
ict
of interest, either!).
Maybe it's just the conditions under which I normally listen... at reason=
ably
low levels in a crowded apartment building with thin walls, or really lou=
d in
headphones. With neither of these approaches do I hear a sound to which =
I
care to listen. This is really unfortunate, because there are a great ma=
ny
discs on the label by artists I typically try to buy as a matter of cours=
e
(Joe McPhee and Evan Parker, for example) as well as musicians I'd really=
love
to hear in new settings (Kevin Norton, Brandon Evans, Chris Kelsey). But=
I
will just reiterate, since I opened this can of worms to begin with... *I=
*
can't stand the way these discs sound, but that's just me, and Chris give=
s a
really good alternative viewpoint.
Ultimately I'd recommend you buy according to how stongly you feel compel=
led
by the artist or material, and then your ears will tell you if you want t=
o go
any further. After all, the one thing about which you will find no argum=
ent
is that CIMP has built up an amazing catalog in virtually no time at all.=
I
can think of few other labels that have built up such an impressive roste=
r so
quickly and consistently. I regret feeling no compulsion to ever hear
another, but it's just me. Vote with your ears.
The prosecution rests.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 08:21:20 -0300
From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar
Subject: WAYNE HORVITZ
Hello "Zornies",
Fortunately Wayne Horvitz continues to put out fine albums here and
there but unfortunately those albums are just below the surface of
mainstream -public attention.
I think Horvitz is one of the best composers and musicians of the decade
so I ask myself if any of you would like to comment:
1)Is there any live recording of Wayne Horvitz's The President?
2)What are people thoughts on Pig Pen's "Live in Poland" and Horvitz's
"Monologue"?
3)Are the Tim/Kerr Records and Cavity Search available at any store or
would I contact a special address/place (just to get Pig Pen's CDs)?
I would be very appreciative of whatever you could tell me.
- -Hugo
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:30:27 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Re[2]: Well, You Needn't
> I haven't heard any of his big fight
> records or concerts, but I rather like the idea: two free
> improvisers, in the ring, rounds of three minutes of "fighting"
> stopped by the bell.
Dude, I fuckin' love this idea.
Doesn't it sound cool?
Instead of the typical jazz idea of conversation, try argument!
Yeah!
Maybe that's what we should do next time we're together.
Take turns doing duet "arguments".
Wow, I think the interaction would be super cool.
You'd have to listen.
CoolCoolCool!
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:28:16 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Re[2]:Cobra
<<
I was actually disappointed when I finally saw it live. Watching the
prompter made the musical logic seem more arbitrary than listening to the
music alone (or maybe the performance I saw was particularly musically
incoherent). On the Hat Hut and Tokyo versions, some performers seem to
be trying to keep some kind of continuity going through all the jumpcuts.
Chris Hamilton
>>
Actually, the cobra show that I saw was amazing, not just because of the music,
but because I finally saw what free improv could do. IT was at Oberlin and Zorn
was conducting a group that had among others, Ribot, Coleman, Parkins, and shit,
tons of others I can't remember. Anyway, the first set completely blew. It was
a waste. A joke. They sucked. What can I say? I feel comfortable saying this
wasn't just my perspective because about 2/3s of the way through, Zorn threw
down the prompting cards and folded his arms. That's right, he quit. So, I
think he agreed with me. So I went outside during intermission thinking well,
at least I gave it a chance. Then we went back in and watched the second half
and they fucking blew me away. It was amazing. I dunno what sort of pep talk
they all got, but they came back out and rocked and jazzed and improved and they
ruled completely.
So, I imagine, like any true good jazz combo, and especially with free improv, I
think, they have to really connect for it to have meaning. So maybe your group
just wasn't connecting.
The other thing I remember was Zeena was wearing biker shorts and we heckled her
by shouting her name after every... tune? I guess.
ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Anyway, she hated it. Heh.
PeterR
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 09:32:18 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Matthew Ostrowski at Roulette
NYC area z-listers might be interested in a concert at Roulette
tomorrow evening (Saturday) featuring the electronics and sampler work
of Matt Ostrowski (FMU listeners may recall his work as DJ using the
nom Matty O).
From what I've heard of his work, he tends to take simple sounds
produced by household objects which are then manipulated, amplified
stretched, etc. into unusual forms, somewhat along the lines of
Xenakis' pieces like 'Boron'. Pretty good stuff.
The piece being performed tomorrow is called 'Vertebra'; one hesitates
to imagine the source...
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:17:03 -0700
From: "Dylan Fitch (Eden Staffing)" <a-dfitch@microsoft.com>
Subject: PainKiller's "unsung heroes"
Does anyone have information regarding the artists who designed all of
PainKiller's cover art - e.g.: Tomoyo T.L. (KARATH=RAZAR)?
DYLAN
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #341
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