home
***
CD-ROM
|
disk
|
FTP
|
other
***
search
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
pub
/
lists
/
zorn-list
/
archive
/
v02.n308
< prev
next >
Wrap
Internet Message Format
|
1998-04-06
|
21KB
From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #308
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, April 6 1998 Volume 02 : Number 308
In this issue:
-
Re: DC 2/math rock
Re: Sainkho
Re: Math Rock/ DC II
Re: ECM
Re: weird?
Re: Steve Reich
Re: Disappointments and Controversy
Re: weird?
Re: Caveman music (was: TOP 20)
Re: Steve Reich
Partners in subversion
Re: Steve Reich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:26:54 -0500
From: Landon Thorpe <landocal@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: DC 2/math rock
>> My favorite math rock:
>>
>> Dr. Nerve - Skin : It gets NO mathier than this. An amazing amazing
record with
>> an ensemble that plays more fucked up and tighter than Naked City, with
rhythms
>> shifting from 13/8 into 7/4 into 5/8 into god knows what else.
>
>What's so special about that? Bands like Dream Theater routinely write songs
>that feature every meter from 5/4, 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, 13/8, 15/16, etc. in
>one and the same song. Listen to "Metropolis Pt. I" from Images and Words,
>for example. Yet this is not called math-rock, its called over-pretentious
>progressive crap. There isn't a single symphonic rock band that sticks to
4/4,
>so I get a bit tired every time someone says "wow, this song is in 5/4, check
>it out".
>
>What about Zappa using completely fucked up meters like 23/16. As a matter
>of fact, even Genesis uses something this far out during the solo of
"Robbery,
>Assault, and Battery".
Yeah, I don't know what math rock means either. I've just always assumed it
was a pejorative term meant to evoke the cheesiness of some prog rock or
some sort of anti-technique sentiment (from the indie rock world).
As far as DC 2 is concerned, I like to think of it as "maximal minimalism:"
long, loud lines repeated over very dynamic drumming (I think Damon Che is
one of the best, or at least one of the most creative and energetic
drummers around). Someone sometime ago said that DC 2 inverted the
traditional role of the guitar/guitar/bass/drums lineup. The guitars use
the regularity of their repeated lines to keep time while the drums take
the "lead" role. Actually, I think both guitars and drums do a little bit
of both.
On a side note, DC 2 and Disco Volante came out in stores around the same
time. I bought both in one trip, and I haven't yet had a better "catch"
from the record store in terms of quality.
Landon Thorpe
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:02:03 -0700
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Sainkho
At 1:22 PM 4/4/98, Tom Pratt wrote:
>I have recently been digging Sainkho Namchylak's music and was wondering
>what else is out there I don't know about. I have her duo with Evan
>Parker on Victo, a disc w/MCO called 'Let Permesky Dream' and her FMP
>solo disc. I know of 'Letters' on Leo, another MCO, a duo w/Rothenberg
>and a disc with Werner Ludi, Butch Morris & Peter Kowald. What else is
>out there?????
>
> -Tom Pratt
Though it's not buying just for her, the Leo 8-CD Document box of '80s
russian avante garde jazz has a fantastic performance by her with Tri-0, a
wind trio. Actually, this remains my favorite recording of hers. The rest
of the box is mixed for me, with some excellent stuff (Dearly Departed, one
of the most completely heart-rending pieces of music I've heard, and the
Jazz Group Arkhangelsk) some good stuff by groups with better material
available elsewhere (Ganelin Trio and Sergey Kuryokhin), and some pretty
forgettable stuff.
________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/
"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
-Sun Ra
________________________________________________________
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:06:48 +1000
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Math Rock/ DC II
> What's so special about that? Bands like Dream Theater routinely write
songs
> that feature every meter from 5/4, 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, 13/8, 15/16, etc.
in
> one and the same song. Listen to "Metropolis Pt. I" from Images and
Words,
> for example. Yet this is not called math-rock, its called
over-pretentious
> progressive crap. There isn't a single symphonic rock band that sticks to
4/4,
> so I get a bit tired every time someone says "wow, this song is in 5/4,
check
> it out".
Yes yes, agreed. But you can do some interesting things with odd times -
when I went to the KF page recently I heard a sample of Pachora (newish
quartet with Chris Speed on clarinet) which just happened to be in 5 if I
remember correctly. If it had been a straight 4 I probably would have said
"nice tune, but it's pretty boring". Since it was in 5 it had an added
momentum to it, so that when it got to the end I was literally speechless,
and incidentally I very soon ordered the CD. Obviously you can do some
interesting stuff with 4 as well (a piece whose name escapes me from Masada
2 comes to mind). When odd times were the "in-thing", people might've said
"wow, check it out", but now really they're just part of the general
vocabulary. Are you saying now that a song in an odd time doesn't deserve a
listen because it's just being pretentious?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:56:36 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: ECM
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:34:46 -0400 Alan E Kayser wrote:
>
> Keith McMullen wrote:
>
> > >> >Outside of a couple of Old & New Dreams and Dewey Redman albums,
> > the Art
> > >> >Ensemble has the only stuff on ECM that isn't a replacement for
> > sleeping
> > >> >pills.
> > >
> > >What about...
> > >Steve Tibbetts
> > >David Torn
> > >Krakatau
> > >Bill Frisell
> > >Early Pat Metheny (ie: Offramp, 80/81)
> > >
> > >-Sean
> >
> > That's right. I can't go to sleep with that shit on.
> >
> > Keith
>
> I must agree that the current version of ECM is pretty lame. However,
> way back in ancient history, the 70s, they put out quite a few excellent
> LPs. In fact some of it was cutting edge, at least at the time it was.
> There are many that I could name, but just a few are:
>
> Dave Holland's Conference of the Birds
> Barre Phillips' Mountainscapes
> Jack DeJohnette's New Directions
> Ralph Towner's Batik
> Eberhard Weber's Yellow Fields
> Pat Metheny's 80/81
> Chick Corea's Return to Forever (the LP, not the band)
> CIRCLE
And you forgot:
MUSIC IMPROVISATION COMPANY
DUO DEREK BAILEY DAVE HOLLAND
You had to have some guts to put out such records in the early '70s.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:49:41 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: weird?
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:58:14 GMT0BST DR S WILKIE wrote:
>
> anybody have info. on the forthcoming zorn release "weird little boy"
> (avant 43?)
Typo? CADENCE lists this record as having Chris Cochrane, instead of
Mike Patton.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:38:11 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Reich
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 02:58:50 -0500 Jack Schonewolf wrote:
>
> Dear Listservers,
> First off, I want to thank everyone for the great discussion lately on the
> listserve, as it helped me through a real bad week. Anyway, one name that I
> saw come up on a few lists, I believe, was Steve Reich, who I am not
> familiar with. What is his music like? Good albums to start with? What are
> people's thoughts on his work? I would be very appreciative of whatever you
> could tell me.
Just bought a new version of MUSIC FOR 18 MUSICIANS which seems to create
unanimity (along with KIND OF BLUE and A LOVE SUPREME). I guess it is the
version from the 10xCD box (on Nonesuch).
If you want to have an idea of what Steve Reich is, there is not better
buy. Hard to imagine a more luscious and serene piece of music. Just when
many people were ready to believe (in the '70s) that there was only two
alternatives to contemporary music: Cage or Stockhausen (and their respec-
tive epigones), here comes a bunch of composers with a totally different
approach to music (Reich, Glass). 20 years after, this piece is already a
classic in a genre that has very few (I mean, after WW2).
I was really surprised how similar this new interpretation is (as compared
to the ECM one). I am even wondering if, duration aside, I could detect a
difference. This will be a good argument for those who judge Reich's music
too mechanical :-).
BTW, am I the only one to be surprised at the fact that there is no book
on Reich (I am excluding, of course, his collection of essays)? I was
expecting that with his 60th anniversary, somebody would come up with
a book. That might be Reich's lot: people listen to his music instead of
writing about :-). A way to acknowledge that the music speaks for itself
(instead of the opposite).
> By the way, I highly recommend both of the Anthony Coleman Tzadik Radical
> Jewish Culture Series records, Sephardic Tinge and Selfhaters. They are the
SEPHARDIC TINGE is a wonderfull jazz trio. It is, to my knowledge, the only
record on which Coleman really plays piano: no gimmick, no play around, just
piano, bass, drums and great music. Can't stop avoiding to compare it with
another great recent trio: WHO'S BRIDGE by Misha Mengelberg.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:24:32 -0700
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Disappointments and Controversy
> P.D: =BFWhat are the opinions on Arto's and Tortoise's latest? I
>personally love them both.
>
The new Tortoise is the first of their records that I have really liked a
lot. I didn't actively dislike their earlier stuff, just thought it was a
bit over rated, especially by the Wire. But the pieces on the new disc are
very nice, much more composed, don't wander as much as the earlier stuff,
there are more interesting textures, and some of the tunes are pretty
catchy. As usual, it's pretty easy to spot their influences, Morricone and
Steve Reich in particular on this CD, but I hear more of a unique band
voice on TNT.
________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/
"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
-Sun Ra
________________________________________________________
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:49:41 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: weird?
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:58:14 GMT0BST DR S WILKIE wrote:
>
> anybody have info. on the forthcoming zorn release "weird little boy"
> (avant 43?)
Typo? CADENCE lists this record as having Chris Cochrane, instead of
Mike Patton.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:20:17 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Caveman music (was: TOP 20)
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:26:55 +1000 (EST) James Douglas Knox wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Patrick Stockton wrote:
>
> > Caveman Shoestore - "Flux"
> > Caveman Hughscore - self-titled (this is Caveman Shoestore with Hugh
> > Hopper)
> > Hughscore - "High Spot Paradox"
>
> This doesn't mean a damn thing to me: please tell me more...
Me either... The only way this could make sense is that Patrick is a good
friend of the band :-). If it is not the case, I am totally puzzled...
Not that I don't like C.S., but on the scale of music achievement, I do
not believe that they are at the top (even Coltrane or Miles did not get
three records listed!!!).
I like the first C.S. better and found the lyrics on FLUX (their second)
really annoying. The Hughscore are OK, in the same way as meeting an old
friend from whom you expect nothing but having good time. But nothing to
change the direction in music, more like a "hello to the past".
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 07:19:02 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Reich
Jack, Steve Reich is one of the foremost Minimalist composers. If
you're familiar with Phillip Glass, who's probably more popular, than
you have some idea of the nature of the music, although they are very
different composers. Reich's background is as a percussionist, which I
believe leads to the highly syncopated style of his music. Over the
past ten years or so, his work has gotten more complex harmonically and
now melodically, and he's also become more of a dramatic composer.
His "Music for 18 Musicians" has been on many lists here, and it's a
great work and a great example of his music. Plus it's really very
beautiful and powerful. It's probably the best introduction to him,
along with "Different Trains" which is a dramatic work for the Kronos
4tet, using sampled sounds and speech. That's on a CD with "Electric
Counterpoint," a guitar piece which is played by Pat Metheny, so I would
venture that recording is perhaps his best seller.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:17:21 -0400
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Partners in subversion
This press release came to me on another mailing list, and since we
periodically discuss plunderphonics, including Negativland, I thought
some of us might be interested.
- ------ Start of Forwarded Message ------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 6, 1998
Contacts: RTMARK (rtmark@paranoia.com)
Illegal Art (illegalart@detritus.net)
Negativland (mark@negativland.com)
RTMARK ANNOUNCES NEW PARTNERSHIP
Series with Illegal Art and Negativland
builds on earlier successes, encouraged by Geffen's tolerance
Three big players in the field of corporate subversion are joining forces.
Negativland has agreed to help Illegal Art and RTMARK with their new
"Deconstructing" series, which builds on the unexpectedly large success of
Deconstructing Beck, a compilation of illegally sampled Beck released by
Illegal Art and sponsored by RTMARK. The new series, for which RTMARK has
gathered $5,500 in "seed" funds, will sample well-known copyrighted
material for artistic purposes; Negativland will help distribute some of
the releases.
First in the series is Deconstructing Beck itself, already re-released on
Negativland's label, Seeland. The next release, slated for August, will
"deconstruct" Hollywood film music. New releases are planned every six
months thereafter, with RTMARK providing more funding as needed.
The music industry's relative calm in the face of Deconstructing
Beck--which has been featured on radio stations worldwide and has made it
onto many of their "top 10" charts--has encouraged Illegal Art and RTMARK
to establish the series. Beck's label, Geffen, reacted aggressively at
first to the CD, but has since then been silent. In a recent e-mail to
RTMARK, Geffen's Jim Griffin wrote: "Frankly, everyone seems to have
forgotten about it and I suspect that at most our attorneys felt obligated
to write you some kind of note. But no one here so much as busted a sweat
when they heard about it.... They probably felt the need to raise some
amount of token objection so it didn't set a precedent."
Meanwhile, unbeknownst to Geffen, Beck's publisher (BMG) is still trying
to force Illegal Art to cease distribution, but so far can't find a
physical address to which to deliver a threatening letter, the necessary
prelude to any legal action. (See
http://www.paranoia.com/~rtmark/lawletters.html for some of the
correspondence, including a response by Negativland to Geffen's lawyers.
Also see http://www.paranoia.com/~rtmark/faq.html for articles about
Deconstructing Beck.)
Geffen's passivity may reflect emerging industry standards, according to
RTMARK spokesperson Ray Thomas. A few years ago, U2's lawyers pursued
Negativland for an album which sampled U2's music extensively. When U2
itself found out, they called off the lawyers, but it turned out that U2's
reputation had already been tarnished by the episode. When Negativland
later did a similar thing with Pepsi jingles, Pepsi, perhaps wisely, chose
not to react. Something similar may be happening with Geffen, according to
Thomas, and "BMG is just being thick."
Negativland spokesperson Mark H. likewise believes that Geffen has learned
its lesson. "Geffen knows this sort of thing is no threat to the sampled
artist. For their lawyers to really pursue this would only make Beck look
mean-spirited, and they know it."
There is another possible explanation as well. Beck, who was sent a copy
of Deconstructing Beck shortly after its initial release in February, is
rumored to like the CD.
RTMARK was established in 1991 to further intelligent subversion, in some
cases by channelling funds from donors to workers for sabotage of
corporate products. Recent and upcoming acts of RTMARK-aided subversion
are documented on RTMARK's web site, http://www.paranoia.com/~rtmark.
- ------- End of forwarded message -------
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:38:11 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Reich
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 02:58:50 -0500 Jack Schonewolf wrote:
>
> Dear Listservers,
> First off, I want to thank everyone for the great discussion lately on the
> listserve, as it helped me through a real bad week. Anyway, one name that I
> saw come up on a few lists, I believe, was Steve Reich, who I am not
> familiar with. What is his music like? Good albums to start with? What are
> people's thoughts on his work? I would be very appreciative of whatever you
> could tell me.
Just bought a new version of MUSIC FOR 18 MUSICIANS which seems to create
unanimity (along with KIND OF BLUE and A LOVE SUPREME). I guess it is the
version from the 10xCD box (on Nonesuch).
If you want to have an idea of what Steve Reich is, there is not better
buy. Hard to imagine a more luscious and serene piece of music. Just when
many people were ready to believe (in the '70s) that there was only two
alternatives to contemporary music: Cage or Stockhausen (and their respec-
tive epigones), here comes a bunch of composers with a totally different
approach to music (Reich, Glass). 20 years after, this piece is already a
classic in a genre that has very few (I mean, after WW2).
I was really surprised how similar this new interpretation is (as compared
to the ECM one). I am even wondering if, duration aside, I could detect a
difference. This will be a good argument for those who judge Reich's music
too mechanical :-).
BTW, am I the only one to be surprised at the fact that there is no book
on Reich (I am excluding, of course, his collection of essays)? I was
expecting that with his 60th anniversary, somebody would come up with
a book. That might be Reich's lot: people listen to his music instead of
writing about :-). A way to acknowledge that the music speaks for itself
(instead of the opposite).
> By the way, I highly recommend both of the Anthony Coleman Tzadik Radical
> Jewish Culture Series records, Sephardic Tinge and Selfhaters. They are the
SEPHARDIC TINGE is a wonderfull jazz trio. It is, to my knowledge, the only
record on which Coleman really plays piano: no gimmick, no play around, just
piano, bass, drums and great music. Can't stop avoiding to compare it with
another great recent trio: WHO'S BRIDGE by Misha Mengelberg.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #308
*******************************
To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
"majordomo@xmission.com"
with
"unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
in the body of the message.
For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
"help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
in the commands above with "zorn-list".
Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.