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Zorn List Digest         Monday, April 6 1998         Volume 02 : Number 306



In this issue:
-
       Re: Stravinsky/Shostakovitch do jazz??
       RE: Disappointment/Frisell
       Re: Yes <blush>
       Re: 6 disappointments 6
       enough!!!!
       Top 20
       Re: Disappointments and Controversy
       Rad. Jewish Culture (was Steve Reich)
       akemi and jagatara
       weird?
       Re: 6 disappointments 6
       Re: ECM
       weeeeeeeen
       My 20
       Math Rock/ DC II
       Re: Math Rock/ DC II
       Re: Math Rock/ DC II
       Re: Math Rock/ DC II
       Diabolic
       top 20 tallies
       Re: Faith No More

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:10:48 +0100
From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stravinsky/Shostakovitch do jazz??

I thought Bix Beiderbecke was a clarinetplayer?

Jeroen de Boer


On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Chris Bar{ett wrote:

>  >I do
> >believe that Bix Beiderbeck was in the Whiteman band but he played soprano
> >sax, not cornet.
>
> I may be shaky on the Whiteman info, but as a trumpet player, I *know* that
> Bix was a coronet player, and hung with Hoagy Carmicheal.
>
I may be shaky on my Stravinsky/Shostakovitch/Whiteman info, but as a
cornet player, I *know* a coronet is a thing that goes on yr head

Err, I think... :-)


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:54:07 +0200
From: Artur Nowak <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Disappointment/Frisell

- -----Original Message-----
From:    Dan Given [SMTP:[e-mail]]
Sent:    Saturday, April 04, 1998 9:23 PM
To:    [e-mail]
Subject:    Disappointment/Frisell

>Just ignore me.

Keith, just so you know you are not alone, I too really dislike Frisell's
albums.  Dumped every one of them I have bought.  I to like his work with
Naked City, the Paul Motian trio stuff, and I assume the clarinetist thing
you mention above is his playing on Don Byron's Tuskegee Experiments, which
is a great album.  I don't like Theoretically though. The only Berne album
I've traded in. Sounded to me like new age twaddle (I'm gonna get flamed.)
There's something about Frisell's choice of material and combined with
style that just bore me to death.  His album with the John Hiatt song, the
Madonna one, etc was, to my ears, bad elevator music. The only one I regret
not keeping, just so I could give it another chance, is an early Nonesuch
album, with a long track arranged by Zorn, can't remember the name of the
album.  I think I have managed to put his own album into some back part of
my memory, where I try to keep them hidden so it doesn't sour my opinion of
his other work.

Dan

[Artur Nowak]  The only album you regret not keeping is "Before We Were
Born" which is a good record, but a bit too casual, recorded during few
sessions, with different musicians. Each composition has easily perceived
arranger-trademark. The themes arranged by Scherer are more
electronic-based (drum machine, keyboard backgrounds). The track arranged
by Zorn is:

6. "Hard Plains Drifter. Or: as I take my last breath and the noose grows
tight, the incredible events of the past three days flash before my eyes"
(13:18).

This track sounds for me now like early Naked City recording (maybe this
was Zorn's first idea of making such project?), arranged using
cut-and-paste method: few noisy moments, country, reagge-dubbs,
punk-intros, and quitet soundscapes. The last song (song, really, with Arto
Lindsay singing) is extraordinary, the CD is worth buying just for this 2
minutes long song.

The album with Hiatt and Madonna songs is "Have a Little Faith", which is
essential Frisell album, IMHO. This record shows one of his gratest
talents: he is able make synthesis of opposite elements. Frisell's music
methotology is dialectics, and the synthesis is (almost) always very
coherent (VERY coherent in case of "Have a Little Faith). One of the most
non-coherent album is already mentioned "Before We Were Born", which is
rather a preparation for future projects, preliminary, opening to new
influences.
Too much Hegel? OK, I'm gone, just like a train...   ;-)

     ____________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:42:14 +0200 (MESZ)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Yes <blush>

hmmm YESSONGS was the album that made me interested in more "complicate"
music when i was 13 in 1987...
still love to listen to Close to the edge and Relayer YEPP

BJOERN
> >...and <dont hate me> a toss up between Yes' Close to the Edge or REalyer
> ><blush>
> >
> >- -corn diggity dog
>
> No need to blush, corn-
>
> I recently had a chance to listen to the latest Yes "Keys to Ascension 2",
> and was very surprised at how good it was. Nothing like the "Big Generator"
> sound I was expecting. Anyhow, this put me on something of a Yes binge, at
> which time I thankfully rediscovered "Relayer" as a long forgotten treasure
> from my youth. Good call!
>
> Todd
>
>
>
>
> ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> Todd Bramy
> [e-mail]
> http://www.oz.net/~tbramy
> ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> "It is not a fragrant world."
> Raymond Chandler
> ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
>
>
> -
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:47:02 +0200 (MESZ)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 6 disappointments 6

> > 1- KING FOR A DAY- Faith No More
> > Where were the keyboards in this album? Without Roddy FNM is NOT really
> > FNM. It was just a good record from a good band (which didn't sound like
> > FNM)
> I don't know about you, but I would prefer to hear Trey than Roddy any day.
>
well since this is in my top 20 i want to say that this is a perfect
album...maybe it is no typical FNM album but it is their only album that
also jazz/avantgarde non-rock listeners like...believe me\


BJOERN

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:59:23 +0200 (MESZ)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: enough!!!!

shit,
i know i started this whole top 20 thing....
comin back home after four days and havin more than 300 emails in my
mail-folder is too much....
when will i ever get the chance to get through all these lists
goddamn\

anyway...go on!!!
i dont see the sence in top 20s for liveshows and disappointments since
this wont help anyone to get into great stuff he/she never heard before...

BJOERN
http://www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:34:24 EDT
From: JSub <[e-mail]>
Subject: Top 20

In no particular order:

Napalm Death - Scum
Techno Animal - Re-Entry
Zorn - Naked City
Godflesh - Pure
James Brown - StarTime (if I couldn't take the whole box then disc 3)
Material - Hallucination Engine
Painkiller - Execution Ground
Last Exit - Headfirst Into the Flames
Led Zeppelin - IV
King Crimson - Great Deceiver
Miles Davis - Panagea
Scorn - Evanescence
Extreme Noise Terror - Peel Sessions
Masada - Circle Maker
New Kingdom - Paradise Don't Come Cheap
Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back
Nicky Skopelitis - Ekstasis
Divination - Ambient Dub vol 2  Dead Slow
Sonny Sharrock - Guitar
John Coltrane - Major Works

Entirely too many great things have been left off.  I'm thankful this is just
a what if and hope I would never be limited to just 20 cd's.

Jeff Sublett

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:34:02 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Disappointments and Controversy

> I think "Angel Dust" is a
> masterpiece (one of the few in rock music), an album created out from
> frustration, anger, and the internal struggles in a band which hasn't yet
> decided what it wants to sound like (it's a shame that on the last two
> albums they gave up their fights and opted for indifference for each
> other). I think the band is at it's best on that album, and I have to
> disagree with Julian, as much as I love Trey's work with Mr. Bungle, his
> playing with FNM sounded dull and mechanical; at least Jon Hudson is now
> the only member of the band, along with Billy Gould, who plays with his
> heart into it. And Julian, it's not fair to disqualify someone just
because
> he "sucks".

True, but I _was_ joking with that abruptness. I agree that Angel Dust is
one of the greatest rock albums, but your argument makes little sense. What
should KFAD have been like? It was either going to be a copy of AD or
something totally different. They could choose whichever they wanted, and
they chose the latter. So, put the two albums together, you get a good band
in two different modes, which I think is a lot better than two albums that
sound the same (a direct comparison can be made to Mr Bungle's jump from
the selftitled to Disco Volante). And by the way, in my humble opinion,
Evidence has some of Trey's most impressive playing in it. In Mr Bungle
he's a lot more imaginative, but on KFAD, he did some pretty straight but
still excellent guitar work.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:40:48 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Rad. Jewish Culture (was Steve Reich)

> By the way, I highly recommend both of the Anthony Coleman Tzadik Radical
> Jewish Culture Series records, Sephardic Tinge and Selfhaters. They are
the
> cat's meow. In fact, I have not had a bad purchase from that series.
Well,
> I guess that is all for now.

I think Nani Nani's on that series isn't it?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:48:05 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: akemi and jagatara

Can someone tell me who these are? They're listed in the "Radio" booklet
for the song "Bone Orchard" I believe.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:58:14 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: weird?

anybody have info. on the forthcoming zorn release "weird little boy"
(avant 43?)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:59:14 -0500
From: "PETSITTER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 6 disappointments 6

- -----Original Message-----
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 4:50 AM
Subject: Re: 6 disappointments 6


>> > 1- KING FOR A DAY- Faith No More
>> > Where were the keyboards in this album? Without Roddy FNM is NOT really
>> > FNM. It was just a good record from a good band (which didn't sound
like
>> > FNM)
>> I don't know about you, but I would prefer to hear Trey than Roddy any
day.
>>
>well since this is in my top 20 i want to say that this is a perfect
>album...maybe it is no typical FNM album but it is their only album that
>also jazz/avantgarde non-rock listeners like...believe me\
>
>
>How do you figure a jazz/avantgarde listener will like this lame album.
Jazz/avantgarde listeners expect something a little different, exciting and
spontaneus.  King for a day is bad even for a typical rock CD.  and I love
Faith no More!
Any one else agree on this?>
>-
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:34:46 -0400
From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ECM

Keith McMullen wrote:

> >> >Outside of a couple of Old & New Dreams and Dewey Redman albums,
> the Art
> >> >Ensemble has the only stuff on ECM that isn't a replacement for
> sleeping
> >> >pills.
> >
> >What about...
> >Steve Tibbetts
> >David Torn
> >Krakatau
> >Bill Frisell
> >Early Pat Metheny (ie: Offramp, 80/81)
> >
> >-Sean
>
> That's right. I can't go to sleep with that shit on.
>
> Keith

I must agree that the current version of ECM is pretty lame.  However,
way back in ancient history, the 70s, they put out quite a few excellent
LPs.  In fact some of it was cutting edge, at least at the time it was.
There are many that I could name, but just a few are:

    Dave Holland's Conference of the Birds
    Barre Phillips' Mountainscapes
    Jack DeJohnette's New Directions
    Ralph Towner's Batik
    Eberhard Weber's Yellow Fields
    Pat Metheny's 80/81
    Chick Corea's Return to Forever (the LP, not the band)
    CIRCLE

    Regardless of how we might view some of the above in 1998, these
were all, as I remember, at the razor's edge when they came out.

    Though Jarrett long ago went off the deep end, his early ECM stuff
was quite exciting, especially the Koln and Bremen solo pieces and the
Dewey Redman quartet.  The first Bass Desires was another good piece,
and let's not forget that AEC was on ECM, though not at the top of their
game.  Of course most of this goes back at least 20 years, but they do
deserve some credit for recognizing the talent involved.  Other than
small labels like HatArt and Tzadik, there is no consistent flow of
interesting music coming forth from anywhere.  The big guns put out
Boney James and Kenny G then ram them down your throat.  Guys like
HatArt and AUM are lucky to crack 1000 copies of anything.

Alan

>
>
> -




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  6 Apr 1998 13:49:26 UT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: weeeeeeeen

I noticed a lot of attention to The Pod and Pure Guava, both of which are
excellent, but no-one's mentioned their first album, God*Ween*Satan.  Definitely
as good as the others, if not their best.  I suppose it really depends on what
mood I'm in to say which is the best.  Anyway, if you don't have it, go get it.
Fantastic, plus the cover of Prince's Shockadelica rules.

Also, I'm pleased to say I saw them in their first ever live gig at the Euclid
Tavern in Cleveland, and they tore the place up with only two guitars and a DAT
of drum beats.  They ended with the Prince cover and one Ween guy (which is
which?) tore the strings off his guitar one by one, ending with a five minute
long scorhcing one-string guitar solo.  Those guys ruled.  Another great band
lost to the majors.  :(

Peter

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:02:27 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Geert Buelens <[e-mail]>
Subject: My 20

Random order:

Beatles: White Album
Violent Femmes: Violent Femmes
Van Morrison: Veedon Fleece
Miles Davis: Kind of Blue
Tom Waits: Swordfishtrombones
Zorn: Bar Kokhba
Joni Mitchell: Hejira
Soul Coughing: Ruby Vroom
Sibelius: Violin Concerto
Schubert: String Quintett in C
Bach: Cello Suites
Bach: Violin Sonatas & Partitas
Bach: Goldberg Variations
David Sylvian: Secrets of the Beehive
Prince: Sign of the Times
Joe Jackson: Body & Soul
Elvis Costello: King of America
REM: Lifes Rich Pageant
Townes van Zandt: Live & Obscure
any Jacques Brel

geert


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  6 Apr 1998 14:00:47 UT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Math Rock/ DC II

I really never caught on to DC II, but DC I is a fantastic rock record, with a
little bit of math.
My favorite math rock:

Dr. Nerve - Skin : It gets NO mathier than this.  An amazing amazing record with
an ensemble that plays more fucked up and tighter than Naked City, with rhythms
shifting from 13/8 into 7/4 into 5/8 into god knows what else.  Plus, computer
generated melodies that are tonal/atonal collisions, yet are beautiful in a
bizarre way.  A must have.  Did it make my list?  Yeah, it did, but the next one
didn't and that's a sin.

Philo Beddow - This all but unknown band has one EP out and it could be one of
the best records of all time.  Shoulda been on my list and it's a crime that it
wasn't.  Vaguely acessible math rock.  Far out meters, but in a good rockin'
way, with nice heavy playing all around.

Craw - their first album - Whatever it's called, this was the it for me.  All
sorts of math games with a bit of free improv and excellent playing.  Rock when
it's time to rock.  Twiddle when it's time to twiddle.  Scream when it's time to
scream.  You get the idea.


Any other suggestions?

Peter

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:26:39 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Math Rock/ DC II

> Any other suggestions?

Well, what about just the good ol' Ruins?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:38:51 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Math Rock/ DC II

> Dr. Nerve - Skin : It gets NO mathier than this.  An amazing amazing
record with
> an ensemble that plays more fucked up and tighter than Naked City, with
rhythms
> shifting from 13/8 into 7/4 into 5/8 into god knows what else.  Plus,
computer
> generated melodies that are tonal/atonal collisions, yet are beautiful in
a
> bizarre way.  A must have.  Did it make my list?  Yeah, it did, but the
next one
> didn't and that's a sin.
>
> Philo Beddow - This all but unknown band has one EP out and it could be
one of
> the best records of all time.  Shoulda been on my list and it's a crime
that it
> wasn't.  Vaguely acessible math rock.  Far out meters, but in a good
rockin'
> way, with nice heavy playing all around.

Where can you buy these? I tried searching some shops on the net, with no
luck.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:29:43 +0200
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Math Rock/ DC II

> My favorite math rock:
>
> Dr. Nerve - Skin : It gets NO mathier than this.  An amazing amazing record with
> an ensemble that plays more fucked up and tighter than Naked City, with rhythms
> shifting from 13/8 into 7/4 into 5/8 into god knows what else.

What's so special about that? Bands like Dream Theater routinely write songs
that feature every meter from 5/4, 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, 13/8, 15/16, etc. in
one and the same song. Listen to "Metropolis Pt. I" from Images and Words,
for example. Yet this is not called math-rock, its called over-pretentious
progressive crap. There isn't a single symphonic rock band that sticks to 4/4,
so I get a bit tired every time someone says "wow, this song is in 5/4, check
it out".

What about Zappa using completely fucked up meters like 23/16. As a matter
of fact, even Genesis uses something this far out during the solo of "Robbery,
Assault, and Battery".

Frankco.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:05:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Gretz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Diabolic

just picked this up on the FNM list:
turns out mike patton has a new band called - DIABOLIC, with Trevor Dunn, Buzz
Osbourne (from the Melvins) and Dave Lombardo!!!!!!!!!!! (former drummer of
SLAYER), they are making their live debut in July.
this will probably be to good to handle.

jeff

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  6 Apr 1998 17:30:52 UT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: top 20 tallies

Again, I have the full list in either Windows XL or text file format.
Let me know if you want a copy.

Peter


[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:27:20 -0400
From: "Francisca" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Faith No More

I do not mean to insult anybody's musical preferences, but I have a hard
time figuring out what exactly so many of you find compelling, experimental
and exciting about Faith No More, considering that you appreciate such a
diverse range of excellent music. And I know what I'm talking about, since
at one point in my life I owned 3 of their albums. But I have long since
abandoned any interest in pretty pop -- along with all my rock favorites of
yore: Jane's Addiction, Metallica, Carcass, King's X, Voivod and
Soundgarden's Louder Than Love. Nowadays I prefer Musica Transonic (an
insane Japanese band), Caspar Brotzmann Massaker and Pussy Galore. God
knows even Xenakis is far louder and wilder than any of those tame pups.


                        Francisca

P.S. Thank you to all those who have made known their favorite Art Ensemble
of Chicago records.


[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #306
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