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Zorn List Digest       Sunday, February 15 1998       Volume 02 : Number 234



In this issue:
-
       Avant-Con/Free "Jazz":  Let Us  Stamp  It Out!
       masada song titles
       Annoying Bungle fans
       Gainsbourg
       Re: Braxton...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:41:32 -0600
From: JRZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Avant-Con/Free "Jazz":  Let Us  Stamp  It Out!

Picked this up on rec.music.bluenote. This is one of the funniest things
I've ever read, I think he's serious too. The line it is drawn, the curse
it is cast. I can't wait for his manifesto.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Friends,

By way of asking for your immediate support in the heavy task that lies
ahead of us, I am
reposting our "call to arms" for those who may have missed it.  Again, I
remind you to
strengthen your heart and spirit and to be vigilant at all times; as you
will have noticed, the
enemies of jazz are not about to take this quietly.  But have no fear: I
stand between you
and them and will protect you from their unwarranted wrath.  Friends,
the time has
come when  every true jazz fan must stand up and be counted: I am
counting on  you
to do the right thing and help save this music that we love so much.  I
want you to walk
into a.g./free performances  and right up to the musician, walk right up
to the a.g./free fan,
to those in th eemploy of FMP,  ETC; look them straight in the  eye and
say "i'm as mad
as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more!".  Let them know that the
pollution of jazz
will no longet  go unopposed!  Let them know that the con must stop
today!  Let   them
know that we will fight, fight, fight!!

- ----------------------------------------------------------------

(Before I write anything else, let me remind you of Friend Rardin's
advice  to RESIST THE URGE.  If you are not concerned with what
avante-garde is
doing to jazz, please just move on; don't read any more or feel you must

respond.)

The matter at hand: It is clear that all of who are concerned about the
future of jazz will also undobtedly be concerned about the effects that
that so-called avante-garde "jazz" has had on real jazz.  The part of
the public that might be interested in real jazz is often turned off
when they are misled into listening to performances or recordings of
the so-called avante-garde jazz, and it is high time we started to
do something about it.  Things have simply gotten out of hand in
what is being put out their, and musicians and lovers of real jazz are
paying for it, whether directly or not.  We must stand up against the
sad, sad noise that is ruining this music!

You will have noticed that avante-garde musicians and their fans get
very upset when it is stated that their music is not  jazz.  Why is
this so?  The answer is that this is the only way they can get any
interest in this mindless random noise.  Basically, the idea is that
they will quietly sneak into the jazz tent and illegally harvest
there.  You may well ask: are there members of the public who are
taken in by the mere name of jazz?  Sadly, the answer is yes, whence,
for example, the increasing use of jazz in advertising, the production
of a Jazz perfume, etc.  Now, these people when they try the music
might well be turned on to real jazz, but instead they are being
lost to us whenever their first encounter is the so-called avante-garde
jazz.  This is why it is time for us to act!

There are several things we could do for a start: direct people to
real jazz, convince those who believe that avante-garde is cool or
hip or whatever that they are getting conned, vote with your wallet:
don't spend the hard-earned in any way that might have a positive
effect on any perpetrator of this con, direct your friends and relatives

to real jazz.  and remember, you don't have to get up here and announce
your actions: just do it quietly, and let its effects be felt. Labels
like FMP, venues like the Knittng Factory, etc.; all these should
ring a loud warning bell.  Don't be impressed by mere fashion; go
for the real gold, instead of the fake stuff that is being urged upon
you.

Friends, we are at a cross-roads.  The time to determine the future
of jazz is now.  "Musicians" who never learned to play their
instruments properly, rockers seeking to reap where they have
not sown (i.e. jazz), creators of mindless random noise that gives
jazz a bad name ... All these are things we should leave behind when
we move into the 21st century.  It is time to say we have had enough.
Time to let these so-called avante-garde-jazz musicians know we
are onto their game and that it is time they learned to play properly.
Some of those fakes are even right here on RMB, and they will fight
hard and long to continue the con; don't buy it, no matter how much
they malign you.  The time to stand up and loudly say: CAN THE CON!
is NOW!

Friend, you may say that you are just one person and what can you do?
Well, a lot of one persons piled up is a lot of persons that can do a
lot.  For example, I personally have steered the listening directions
of many people in the right direction.  All it takes is getting people
to real jazz events, letting those you come into contact with know
where the real goods are and where the con is, tearing down posters
advertising avante-con jazz.  Another way is to shop a lot in one
place and through conversations to steer the proprietors direction
of buying away from what is bad and to the real thing; this tactic
is very effective with small shops or with a city that has a relatively
small number of CD shops.  If you are on an arts advisory board or
something lie that, let you voice be known.  ETC.  ETC.  ETC. My
forthcoming Jazz Agenda For The 21st Century will lay out all of this.

Friends, we have a hard battle in front of us.  Stregthen your spirit,
and be prepared!

Thank You.



my tapelist http://www.winternet.com/~zube/tapelist.htm
Look at Jim Evans, Look at his head, He's got a compass, and a rollaway
bed! - HGB





- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:22:07 +0000
From: david thiel <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada song titles

I'm am wondering if anyone has English translations of MASADA song
titles?





- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:36:30 -0600
From: "Petsitter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Annoying Bungle fans

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BD3A51.65C4CC00
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
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I found this message off of alt.music.mr-bungle, but Ive seen plenty of =
these types on this group and so many other places.  I desperatly want =
to know, is any one else getting annoyed with talk such as this:


I have the first album which is probably the most played CD I own!

I once saw another album by them, but (after listening to it in the
shop) it seemed to be entirely of instrumental stuff, I'm afraid I
prefer lyrics with my music.

So what other albums are available with songs on? I would really
appreciate any advice you could give as I'm sure I can get stuff ordered
through a couple of contacts.
- --=20

- ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BD3A51.65C4CC00
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I found this message off of =
alt.music.mr-bungle,=20
but Ive seen plenty of these types on this group and so many other =
places. =20
I desperatly want to know, is any one else getting annoyed with talk =
such as=20
this:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><BR>I have the first album which is =
probably the=20
most played CD I own!<BR><BR>I once saw another album by them, but =
(after=20
listening to it in the<BR>shop) it seemed to be entirely of instrumental =
stuff,=20
I'm afraid I<BR>prefer lyrics with my music.<BR><BR>So what other albums =
are=20
available with songs on? I would really<BR>appreciate any advice you =
could give=20
as I'm sure I can get stuff ordered<BR>through a couple of =
contacts.<BR>--=20
</FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BD3A51.65C4CC00--


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:42:14 +0100
From: Nuno BARREIRO <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gainsbourg

> Herb Levy wrote:
>
> Zorn's project in re: Radical Jewish Culture (& the Great Jewish Music
> discs are just a part of the Tzadik subset called Radical Jewish Culture)
> seems to be about expanding what is recognized as "Jewish" culturally
> betond just the religious realm.  So the lengthy discussion of whether
> Gainsbourg & his music are "really" Jewish, speaks directly to the point.
>
> Most of the work presented as Radical Jewish Culture, both on CD or as part
> of the several festivals with this title that Zorn has curated, has little
> or no relationship to Judaism as a religion, but rather to a broader range
> of experiences shared by some if not all Jews.

We knew all this from the begining of the discussion. It is precisely what it
is all about. The point is that one should be able to decide whether or not to
belong to such a movement (which Gainsbourg didn't). And to decide for the dead
has never been a reasonable practice (there have been cases, in history, of
elections in which the dead have voted, but usually nobody is proud of such
things).

> I've cited these before, but let me reiterate the quote from Gershom
> Scholem that's on the packaging for all of the Masada CDs & the notes by
> Anthony Coleman for his disc called "Selfhaters".  Taken together these
> help to place the concept of Radical Jewish Culture outside the religious
> tradition & what might commonly be considered "Jewish music."  In fact,
> taken together, they posit a kind of culture that is rooted in how any
> people live, rather than on any traditions may have been passed down (see
> my comments on Black music below).
>
> Gershom Scholem:  "There is a life of tradition that does not merely
> consist of consertvative preservation, the constant continuation of the
> spoiritual and cultural possessions of a community.  There is such a thing
> as a treasure hunt within tradition which creates a living relationship to
> tradition and to which much of what is best in current jewish consciousness
> is indebted, even where it was - and is - expressed outside the framework
> of orthodoxy."

This certainly applies to Zorn... but in the case of Gainsbourg what
tradition are we talking about? He certainly belonged to the jewish
community (as, for instance, Michel Droit - a journalist of the
right-wing newspaper Figaro - didn't forget to mention when criticizing
Gainsbourg's reggae version of the french hymn, in 1979). But, in 1958, when
he played the guitar and the piano at the Milord d'Arsouville (where he has
been sideman of Boris Vian, amongst others), he would often present himself in
a most provocative way: "Bonsoir, je suis le gigolo youpin!" Perhaps you
don't know it, but, in french, the word "youpin" is to "jew" what, in english,
the word "nigger" is to "black"... This clearly shows the relation he had
to his jewishness!

> Anthony Coleman:  'Selfhater.  It describes a way of seeing.  A perception.
> True?  Diengaged.  Disinterested?  Are slefhaters traitors or secret
> agents?  For which side?  Do they show the rest of the world the picture
> that they believe anyway, or do they strip away an element of false
> consciousness implicit in a sense of "belonging" to a "culture."  And which
> culture?  Jerusalem, Belz, the Lower east Side, or Rockland County? Or the
> culture of wandering, the culture of acquisitiveness, of
> having-no-voice-of-one's-own, of mauscheling in any & all languages.  Well,
> this disc doesn't puport to answer.  Some say that's Jewish, too..."

This I don't understand... doesn't make any sense. It is perhaps bad poetry.
Gershom Scholem is clearly much more gifted for writing than A. Coleman,
who should stick to musisc.

> While I don't know many of the details of Gainsboutg's life, at least some
> aspects as repoorted here seem to relate to Coleman's evocation of
> assimilated Jews as participants in a specifically Jewish cultural
> tradition.  Which seems to be part of Zorn's point.
>
> Rather than taking the tradition of cantorial & klezmer musics as the
> limits of what constitutes "Jewish music", Zorn is calling into question
> the pigeonholes often used to hold things in place.  Compare this to, say,
> Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra & others who insist that their work
> comes out of a Black tradition, despite the fact that much of what they
> create doesn't sound much like the most commonly recognized styles of
> "Black music."

That is the point where you get it all wrong! Their work come from a black
tradition indeed... but a MUSICAL one, which is deeply and strongly connected
to black culture and isn't arbitrary at all.

Steve Coleman has created a black musical movement called M-BASE, which you may
decide to belong to (or not). That corresponds to the Radical Jewish Culture of
John Zorn. It's a movement, a fight for something, a cultural identity, or
whatever you may want to call it. I've always liked it (in both Coleman and
Zorn cases) and I wish there could be lots of such movements.

But Zorn can't create "Great Jewish Music" just because he decided to. It's
not because there is a Radical Jewish Culture movement that any jew is forced
to agree and participate. Specially when it's Gainsbourg... who certainly
doesn't fit in any "pigeon hole".

Best wishes,

                Nuno




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:59:23 PST
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Braxton...

YOU WROTE:
>
>I have _Charlie Parker Project_ and think it's great, but I guess I've
never
>gotten anything else because I didn't have a clue where my next step
should be... Any
>others that are good starting (or continuing) points?
>>maf
>
EYE RITE:

At the risk of sounding (more) pedantic (than usual), I might split
Braxton's work into five general categories, four of which deal with his
own work, the fifth with others' (these are the jazz standards albums:
Braxton has yet to my knowledge to tackle any of the "Western" "concert"
"tradition"---a la GRAND GUIGNOL Naked City).  This list will be of
absolutely no interest or use to those who are familiar with Mr
Braxton's work, but for newbies with big ears (esp. that young high
school student: e-mail me, man, and I will send you some inspiring-ass
liner notes from one of Brax's most accomplished students, Ted
Reichman)maybe I can save you a little time and money, since I didn't
know anybody (including Jack Shit) who was into this when I started.
Actually, fuck all that---if I'm not going to start a web page, let's
just have

          A LIST OF MY BRAXFAVES (GREAT FOR NEWBIES TO BRAXTON)

I think the Charlie Prker Project is all right, charming in its own way,
but I myself am not that partial to Braxton's standards releases. If you
like C.P.P. though, you will probably love:

a. DORTMUND 1976 (hatart) The buzz is right: this is not THE greatest
   Brax, but it is the best intro. I think it's out of print, tho.  If
   you can't find it, a suitable (and badass) alternative is PERFORM-
   ANCE (QUARTET) 1979 with Ray Anderson. I like that one too.

b. QUARTET (WILLISAU) 1991 (Hatart) 4CDs, but worth it.  Go find John
   Corbett's review in an old Down Beat.  That's how I feel.  The 2
   live discs are strongest; some of the best live recording quality
I've ever heard.  Beats the hell out of the poorly    recorded Leo
live sets. Not too much irony.  very little "coldness"
   (I can see how people feel that way: Brax's gifts, or perhaps
rather inclinations, are not melodic). A great introduction to his
music, too. Quite simply some of my absolute favorite music period.

b. QUARTET (WILLISAU) 1992 (VICTO) All eyez on Victo!  The world's
   best festival (kidding: but maybe it's close!) inspiring the
   Dresspellingway quartet (same as above) to darker depths.  By the
'  closing solo cadenza of the main set and encore    (Coltrane's
"Impressions"), I was breathless.  Recorded well too.

   Please note: I think both of these are easily better than the
   recent SANTA CRUZ (1993) (which is still badass and a must for
completists) or the poorly recorded 12 COMPOSITIONS OAKLAND
(1993), both of which are by the same group.

c. TRIO (LONDON) 1993 or DUO (LONDON) 1993 (both Leo) Both with Evan
   Parker (need I say more?), the former with Paul Rutherford too.
   Take your pick: either one is absolutely great.

d. ONE IN TWO, TWO IN ONE (hatart) This may be out of print too.
   It's with Max Roach, and it's really really good.  Very accessible
   as well.

e. 3 choices for a representative large ensemble work
   I find some of Braxton's large ensemble work simply the result of
   Wagnerian glutton-eyes: he overcomposes. Braxton's Oevre should be
   called "over-" because, like Zorn, his rabid documentation--I
suspect--is neither the result nor the cause but the symptom of a
   mildly careless overproductive work ethic.  I'm not standing
   by this opinion tightly, but just listen to the work for 4
orchestras, or Comp 96, or Comp 173 (I think: the one that forms
   part of the Trillium series operas).  I consider those abstract to
   the point of concrete blandness.  You can only be so insistently,
   THAT angular so long before it seems like nothing but the same
tired experiment: over and over and over.
   However {pardon me folks} there are some discs that seem not
   only potentially seminal but beautiful as well.
       --4 Comps. (Ensemble) 1992 (Black Saint)
       --2 Comps (Ensemble) 1989/91  (hatart)
       --Comp 165 (New Albion)

 f. SOLO BRAX -- what to say?  it's his most challenging work, for me.
    New bies might want to hold off unless CLASSIC GT STRATEGY is one
    your favorite records.  Repeated listenings will be rewarded by
    the following records (I think)
      --12 ALTOSOLOS (WESLEYAN) 1992    (Hatart)
      --18 SOLOS 1988     (New Albion)   the one to start with
      --ALTO SOLOS 1979  (Arista) double lp, out of print, can
            still be found cheap, though; really damn good
      --FOR ALTO  (Delmark) The first and most historically
significant; a big jumble of dark corners and sharp angles.
>       For me, musically less satisfying than the above, but
        recommended for seasoned vets nonetheless on historical
weight alone.

All right, pardon all this wanking but I love this man's work.  If you
think you might, too, you should check out Graham Lock's FORCES IN
MOTION, which--apart from Lock's occasionally obnoxious Smug Liberal
distress , resulting in delightfully humorous confrontations of Marilyn
Crispell about feminism and Anthony Braxton about McDonald's--
is some of the best "jazz" journalism I've ever read.  Love, Scott

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #234
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