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1998-02-12
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #232
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, February 13 1998 Volume 02 : Number 232
In this issue:
-
Re: Albert Ayler
Re:Albert Ayler (and books, too!)
Re: Next CD Reccomendation thread? - Sun Ra
Re: Next CD Reccomendation thread? - Sun Ra
Circle Maker
Re: drum n bass n jungle
Re: Circle Maker
Re: Albert Ayler
Re: Circle Maker
Re: Circle Maker
Re: drum n bass n jungle
Re: Next CD Reccomendation thread? - Sun Ra
Re: Sax Wars
Inevitable
BANG-A RECORDING INSPIRED BY LAWSWELL AND ZORN
Re: DRUM N BASS N JUNGLE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:38:48 -0500
From: Alan E Kayser <aek1@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Albert Ayler
Keith McMullen wrote:
> >Actually Zorn is a guest on two tracks on the Prima Materia tribute
> to
> >Coltrane, "Peace on Earth." The Ayler tribute is "Bells" but Zorn is
>
> >not on that one. They also have another Coltrane tribute
> >"Meditations." All, of course, feature leader Rashied Ali, along
> with
> >Allen Chase, Joe Gallant, William Parker, etc. High energy music.
> >
> >Alan Kayser
>
> I can see the value of hearing these tributes live, but if I have a
> couple
> of hours to listen to music, I'd never spend it listening to
> recordings of
> Prima Materia when I could spend it listening to the philosophical
> gold
> himself.
>
> s~Z
>
> -
Duke Ellington recorded an LP in the 60s "Recollections of the Big Band
Era." On it he played golden nuggets from that era. Were he Prima
Materia you would have missed a great album. I'm not saying that P.M.
is in any way shape or form even in Duke's league, but they do give the
Coltrane material an interesting twist and deserve to be heard. Ali is
a graduate of the University of Coltrane, so I suppose he has a good
take on what this music is all about. Have you ever listened to Zorn's
"Spy vs. Spy" or 'Voodoo" or does the philosophy also apply here?
Alan Kayser
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:19:31 -0600
From: John Howard <Howard@3DI.com>
Subject: Re:Albert Ayler (and books, too!)
>The book is "As serious As Your Life" by Valerie Wilmer. It's not about
>Ayler per se, it covers the whole NY free Jazz Black Music Thing of the
>1960's. Ayler, Coltrane, Cherry, Pharoah, even Sonny Sharrock! some
>great photo's too.
>
>Rich
>Some more books that are excellent (and deal with creative music in one
>way or another):
>EXTENDED PLAY (John Corbett) Duke Press simply great
>FORCES IN MOTION (Graham Lock) Da Capo you don't need to be a
> Braxton fan to enjoy the celebration of creativity
>All Coltrane Bios are tepid: avoid the Cole bio at all costs, but
>CHASIN THE TRANE is pretty good, look out for the (long time)
>forthcoming Francis Davis Coltrane bio
>THE MUSIC OF KARLHEINZ STOCKHAUSEN (Robin maconie)
>Geez, I'll think of more in time
The Eric Neison (sic) bio ASCENSION is real good actually, you get to
find out the Coltrane was a closet acid head.
There is also a comprehensive book sized Ayler bio at:
http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~jeffs/ayler.html
Other great Ayler recordings to check out are the live ones on HatArt
and LIve in Greenwhich Village on Impulse. Not to mention New York Eye
and Ear Control on ESP (with Don Cherry, sort of a companion to
Coleman's Free Jazz and Coltrane's Ascension)
For Ayler-esque hoot and holler the Frank Lowe ESP album called Black
Beings contains some of the best "free" blowing this side of Bells. It
also features Joseph Jarman and The Wizard(!) on violin. A great
overlooked album. john
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:23:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Next CD Reccomendation thread? - Sun Ra
At 10:04 PM 2/12/98 -0500, Matthew Colonnese wrote:
>Matt,
>
>Don't do it. I don't think any of these are what you are looking for. I
>have _Futuristic Sounds_ and it about the worst Sun Ra thing I own (i'm a
>huge fan, and I hate it). The Black Lion one (_outer spaceways_, I think)
>is one of many late live shows from when he got quiet and conservative
>again. Usually very good big band stuff, but not what it sounds like
>you're looking for.
Late? "Outer Spaceways" was recorded in 1968. The same era as Atlantis,
Magic City, Nothing Is, and before the Kohoutek disc you mention below.
There's wide variety to Ra. You might not like it, but I'd hardly say that
by 1968 Ra was quiet or conservative.
>I know you limited us to these disks, but I gotta recomend you just bite
>the bullet and spend the $5 more to get something decent. I really doubt
>you're saving yourself any money by buying any of these second rate
>releases.
I don't think the Delmarks are second rate. They are fine early Ra albums
when he was just beginning to stretch away from bop style tunes.
>Personally, I've never heard any Sun Ra I thought reminded me of
>Naked City. If you are using that description as a synonym for "chaotic"
>though, let me recomend _Magic City_ which is massive, sprawling group
>improvisation not unlike JC's _Asention_. Also very fucked is _Concert for
>Komet Kahoutek_ on ESP. Which feature whopping doses of Sun Ra's space
>chords on organ. I've heard _My Brother the Wind_ is in a similar vein,
>but I have yet to get this.
>Maybe Sound of Joy_ and _Sun Song_ are not what I suspect, but I'm very
>suspicious of these Delmarks. You don't do yourself any good spending a
>little less for stuff you are much less likely to like.
Your mileage will vary, but I'd pay $8.50 for any of the discs you
mentioned. Futuristic Sounds is not the best, but it does have some good
tunes on it.
Ralph
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:23:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Next CD Reccomendation thread? - Sun Ra
At 10:04 PM 2/12/98 -0500, Matthew Colonnese wrote:
>Matt,
>
>Don't do it. I don't think any of these are what you are looking for. I
>have _Futuristic Sounds_ and it about the worst Sun Ra thing I own (i'm a
>huge fan, and I hate it). The Black Lion one (_outer spaceways_, I think)
>is one of many late live shows from when he got quiet and conservative
>again. Usually very good big band stuff, but not what it sounds like
>you're looking for.
Late? "Outer Spaceways" was recorded in 1968. The same era as Atlantis,
Magic City, Nothing Is, and before the Kohoutek disc you mention below.
There's wide variety to Ra. You might not like it, but I'd hardly say that
by 1968 Ra was quiet or conservative.
>I know you limited us to these disks, but I gotta recomend you just bite
>the bullet and spend the $5 more to get something decent. I really doubt
>you're saving yourself any money by buying any of these second rate
>releases.
I don't think the Delmarks are second rate. They are fine early Ra albums
when he was just beginning to stretch away from bop style tunes.
>Personally, I've never heard any Sun Ra I thought reminded me of
>Naked City. If you are using that description as a synonym for "chaotic"
>though, let me recomend _Magic City_ which is massive, sprawling group
>improvisation not unlike JC's _Asention_. Also very fucked is _Concert for
>Komet Kahoutek_ on ESP. Which feature whopping doses of Sun Ra's space
>chords on organ. I've heard _My Brother the Wind_ is in a similar vein,
>but I have yet to get this.
>Maybe Sound of Joy_ and _Sun Song_ are not what I suspect, but I'm very
>suspicious of these Delmarks. You don't do yourself any good spending a
>little less for stuff you are much less likely to like.
Your mileage will vary, but I'd pay $8.50 for any of the discs you
mentioned. Futuristic Sounds is not the best, but it does have some good
tunes on it.
Ralph
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:50:56 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Circle Maker
I've just been doing some quite random searching, and came across a
soon-to-be released double cd by Zorn called "Circle Maker", apparently on
Tzadik. I had never heard of this before... anyone?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:08:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian & Sharon Beuchaw <beuchaw@enteract.com>
Subject: Re: drum n bass n jungle
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Julian wrote:
> I find it really quite amusing when those people who make this style on a
> little machine are interviewed, and they say things like "well, my style is
> really diverse, it ranges from drum 'n' bass to jungle to trip hop", I feel
> like killing them. In my book, diverse at the very least requires two
> _different_ styles. Of course, on this list, diverse means something more
> along the lines of 50 different styles.
Actually, drum'n'bass/jungle is a *very* different style than trip hop
(and as far as the horrible labels attached to these genres/styles go, I
just use 'em, I didn't invent 'em). But that's neither here nor there
.....
cya
brian (sorry, no obZorn)
- --------------------------------------------------------
"The most dementing of all modern sins: the inability to
distinguish excellence from success." - David Hare
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:19:11 -0500 (EST)
From: 655321 <perna8601@mail.cc.duq.edu>
Subject: Re: Circle Maker
> I've just been doing some quite random searching, and came across a
> soon-to-be released double cd by Zorn called "Circle Maker", apparently on
> Tzadik. I had never heard of this before... anyone?
as "circle maker comes out on march 17, and the tzadik web site lists a
two-cd "bar kokhba" set coming out in march, i think it's a safe
assumption that they are one and the same.
- -a.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:11:30 -0800
From: "Keith McMullen" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Albert Ayler
>Have you ever listened to Zorn's "Spy vs. Spy" or 'Voodoo" or does the
philosophy also apply here?
>
>Alan Kayser
It's a specific issue, not a philosophical one. I thoroughly enjoy SPY and
VOODOO. Prima Materia evoked snoozing. But, hell, I was disappointed with
Douglas' SANCTUARY, and after several tries put it in the discard pile.
Yesterday, I put it on and was absolutely delighted with it. Before long,
I'll probably be hosting Frisell/Keltner and Frank Zappa CD parties.
Keith
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:27:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Corey Marc Fogel <mecorey@imap3.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Circle Maker
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, 655321 wrote:
>
> > I've just been doing some quite random searching, and came across a
> > soon-to-be released double cd by Zorn called "Circle Maker", apparently on
> > Tzadik. I had never heard of this before... anyone?
>
> as "circle maker comes out on march 17, and the tzadik web site lists a
> two-cd "bar kokhba" set coming out in march, i think it's a safe
> assumption that they are one and the same.
but he said "double cd by zorn" , and tzadik lists a forthcoming "gary
lucas bar kokhba".
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:51:24 -0500 (EST)
From: 655321 <perna8601@mail.cc.duq.edu>
Subject: Re: Circle Maker
> > > I've just been doing some quite random searching, and came across a
> > > soon-to-be released double cd by Zorn called "Circle Maker", apparently on
> > > Tzadik. I had never heard of this before... anyone?
> >
> > as "circle maker comes out on march 17, and the tzadik web site lists a
> > two-cd "bar kokhba" set coming out in march, i think it's a safe
> > assumption that they are one and the same.
>
> but he said "double cd by zorn" , and tzadik lists a forthcoming "gary
> lucas bar kokhba".
the upcoming gary lucas disc is called "busy being born." the bar kokhba
set is not related except that they are both under the "radical jewish
culture" imprint and are both being released on the same day. the colon
between the two discs that made them seem to be the same thing was an
error on the tzadik page; if you check back there now you'll see that it
has been removed.
- -a.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:28:16 -0600
From: Joe Germuska <j-germuska@nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: drum n bass n jungle
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
>I find it really quite amusing when those people who make this style on a
>little machine are interviewed, and they say things like "well, my style is
>really diverse, it ranges from drum 'n' bass to jungle to trip hop", I feel
>like killing them. In my book, diverse at the very least requires two
>_different_ styles. Of course, on this list, diverse means something more
>along the lines of 50 different styles.
I'm no expert in electronic music, but "drum 'n' bass" and "trip hop" are
two distinct styles. I think "jungle" is considered a deprecated term
roughly equivalent to "drum 'n' bass," but I may misunderstand.
The main reason I think the point is worth making is that to some ears, all
"free jazz" sounds the same, but I would argue as vigorously as an
electronic music fan for more careful distinctions in my area(s) of
listening concentration.
I almost said "to some ears, all John Zorn sounds the same," but really,
his music covers SO MUCH ground that I doubt many ears could honestly say
that.
Just some thoughts...
Joe
* Joe Germuska {j-germuska@nwu.edu} | Learning Technologies Group
<http://www.nwu.edu/people/j-germuska> | Northwestern University
"Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said, 'The flag is moving.' The other
said, 'The wind is moving.' The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He
told them, 'Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.'" - The Gateless Gate
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:00:51 -0500 (EST)
From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: Next CD Reccomendation thread? - Sun Ra
>Late? "Outer Spaceways" was recorded in 1968. The same era as Atlantis,
>Magic City, Nothing Is, and before the Kohoutek disc you mention below.
>There's wide variety to Ra. You might not like it, but I'd hardly say that
>by 1968 Ra was quiet or conservative.
>
Damn, I was hoping I could get back here before anyone called me out on
this foolishness. I was thinking of _mayan temples_ or any of the other
80/90's concerts. All of which, mind you, I think are good stuff, just not
crazed out jazz the poster was looking for. Anyway, I completely got the
title mixed up.
>I don't think the Delmarks are second rate. They are fine early Ra albums
>when he was just beginning to stretch away from bop style tunes.
>
Maybe I just reached saturation point by the time I bought _futuristic
sounds..._ but I never listent to it and I constantly listen to the
Evidence Reissues from the same time period (and before). In any case,
they qualify as "second rate" to me 'cause for a few bucks more you can get
TWO full Saturn reissues 'stead of one Delmark.
>Your mileage will vary, but I'd pay $8.50 for any of the discs you
>mentioned. Futuristic Sounds is not the best, but it does have some good
>tunes on it.
Granted, although I think if the original poster bought these he would be
severly disapointed, given the stated criterion. Personally, my fave Sun
Ra's are _Cosmic tones for mental therapy_, _jazz in silhouette_, _purple
night_ and the ESP disks, all much quieter.
Two other candidates for noiser/free blowinger Sun Ra are _Space is the
Place_ which contains vocal numbers, echoey ambience, and some noisy
blowing; makes a nice sampler. _Foundation Maeght Nights_ vol 1 and 2
which is lots of chaotic free jazz in the kahoutek vein.
Sorry for the screwups, folks.
matt
- ------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:57:09 -0600
From: magnum-jihad@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson)
Subject: Re: Sax Wars
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:30:09 -0500 Alan E Kayser <aek1@erols.com> writes:
>Doug McKay wrote:
>
>> THE SHAPE OF JAZZ TO COME (May 22, 1959) vs. GIANT STEPS (May
>4,1959).
>>
>> Coleman STOMPS Coltrane FLAT.
>>
Maybe 'STOMPS' is too strong a word. How about : "In my opinion Giant
Steps Is less aesthetically pleasing and-or conceptually interesting than
'The Shape of Jazz to Come' but is a completely valid artistic statment
anyways"
(You can never be to PC!)
or maybe not. What exactly does STOMPING entail? Individual Technical
expertise? Group Dynamics? Concept?
Speaking as someone who really likes both of these (although the Ornette
did more to change my life) , I'm curious.
>> It's hard to believe these were recorded 18 days apart.
>>
>> Doug McKay
>> In Minnesota
>
>What's really hard to believe is that between May 22, 1959, and March
>27, 1961, Ornette and company recorded all the music heard on
> "Beauty is a Rare Thing."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's the box set, right?
A really good (meaning: the only one I'm familiar with) example of this
is 'Shape of JAzz to Come' and 'Tomorrow is the question', seeing as they
are only about 6 months apart. I think there was a third one that I
meant to use as an example, but I don't remember which one it was.
***********************************************************************************************
"Ah. Nabbed from sadists by terrorists. Sort of a dream come true, ya
know."
- -P. Opus
************************************************************************************************
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:05:13 EST
From: "MBS" <sablof_m@LSA.Lan.McGill.CA>
Subject: Inevitable
I am wondering if anyone out there would be interested in some sort
of poll conducted through this list.
Possible categories could include: Fave Zorn Work, Fave Work by Zorn
Associate, etc.
Please email me privately if interested and suggest any categories
you like.
Enjoy lots
Matt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:18:04 +0000
From: david thiel <thiel@buffnet.net>
Subject: BANG-A RECORDING INSPIRED BY LAWSWELL AND ZORN
Thank you to everyone who wrote back to me. I've already sent out some
CDs in the mail. If anyone else is interested If you send 3or 4 dollars
to me I'll send you BANG and my 1st CD OF THE SUN. My address is
David Thiel
175
Margaret Rd
Amherst, NY 14226 Thanks.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:25:43 EST
From: FUNKADELlC@aol.com
Subject: Re: DRUM N BASS N JUNGLE
In a message dated 98-02-13 08:32:03 EST, you write:
<< > I've been told there's a difference between drum 'n' bass and jungle,
> but have failed to figure out how people define each. Any help out
> there?
I find it really quite amusing when those people who make this style on a
little machine are interviewed, and they say things like "well, my style is
really diverse, it ranges from drum 'n' bass to jungle to trip hop", >>
damn.... i go to raves alot here in LA... and the JUNGLE room is always the
same as the DRUM N BASS room.... they never have different rooms.. and it
sounds the goddamn same.... except the kids call it Jungle and the radio
prgrammers call it DrumNBass .... i dunno.. its just sped up hip hop and break
beats to me... with fat ass bass of course.... but if ya wanna get CRAZY with
the new electronic scene.. i suggest y'all start listening to DEATH CORE and
GABBER CORE.... that shit is crazed!!!!! 230 beats per minute..with cool
thrash metal samples and horror movie samples.. some DJ's to look for in the
hardcore/death-core scene are OMAR SANTANA, DJ TRON, DELTA 9 and countless
others.....sorry for ranting
- -cory sklar
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #232
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