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v02.n214
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1998-01-23
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #214
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Saturday, January 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 214
In this issue:
-
Re: (Zorn does) Coltrane
Coltrane: My Favorite Things
Re: Doug Mc Kay
Dolphy [was Re: COLTRANE]
Re: COLTRANE
Re: Re: COLTRANE
My latest purchases
Coltrane/Coleman/Dolphy
Coltrane with Monk
dolphy on mingus
Re: Coltrane
Re: Zorn in the Punk era
Re: Otomo discography (was My latest purchases)
Re: Material in the Punk era
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:19:17 PST
From: "John Q Citizen" <alan_smithee@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (Zorn does) Coltrane
Maybe I cast the net too wide here, but I dearly love the disc of covers
called "Peace on Earth: Music of John Coltrane" (on KFW); Zorn guests on
a couple tracks, and Rashied Ali leads.
>
>I've heard Coltrane called a lot of things, but "syrup and sweet
>nothings" is certainly not one of them. If you're just looking for raw
>edge, I'd recomend the four disc "Live in Japan" from Impulse. I still
>have problems listening to this album. It is a series of long, brutally
>powerful improvisations, where Coltrane's horn can be likened to a
>groaning scream.
I think that scream would more likely be Pharoah Sanders -Coltrane was
getting pretty sick by then; but yr right - its a great set.
Otherwise; I dunno. I think some of Coltrane's work could easily be
qualified as soft and syrupy, or lacking in edge. But what's wrong with
that? Or are musicians supposed to dedicate themselves to exclusively
making 'edgy', 'horrible', 'noise' (and noise to my granma is syrup to
me). I mean: these values are purely relative after all. And the guy's
been dead thirty years. And I wonder how the wonder-white crew that
lionize something like My Favourite Things, c.1998, would've reacted
towards Ascension way back when...
Anyway: I think Coltrane is fine.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:14:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "Andrew D. Boyko" <aboyko@netcom.com>
Subject: Coltrane: My Favorite Things
Since we're all of like mind, it's easy to forget that to plenty
of people, Coltrane's "My Favorite Things" is irreverent and
quite a ways "out". (This includes the dope who traded me
the CD, indicating, "I don't know what people see in this Coltrane,
but he can't play jazz.") MFT is a great, great record (and this
from a guy who's normally more in tune with Torture Garden than
Kind Of Blue).
ObZorn: "New Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands" is really good
and I don't know why it doesn't come up here more often.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:19:33 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Doug Mc Kay
Coleman Greene wrote:
> Eric Dolphy, I have no opinion on, as I've never heard Any of his
> own compositions, Just heard him with others....
Well, sir, run, don't walk, to your local store and pick up "Out to Lunch."
Dolphy made many fine records (and several other merely good records) but
this is one of the cornerstones of adventurous '60s jazz, melodic but
elegantly twisted. That, and his sometimes seemingly arbitrary intervallic
leaps seem to be echoed in Zorn's own playing sometimes so it's germane to
our little corner of the world here. It's also a tour de force for young
Tony Williams...
Put it to ya this way: Ornette's quartet music is so songful I "got" it on a
surface level right away (though I'm still digging on the intricacies 15
years later). "Out to Lunch" *scared* me first time I heard it...
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:48:05 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Dolphy [was Re: COLTRANE]
Jesse Simon wrote:
> At 02:14 PM 1/23/98 -0600, JRZ wrote:
>
> >What Mingus albums does [Dolphy] play on? Most of his CD's don't list the
> lineups
> >on the outside.
>
> Eric Dolphy accompanied Mingus on the historic 1964 european tour. He
> stayed after Mingus went home, recorded some albums with Danish (?)
> personelle and then died shortly afterwards.
Notable among these later recordings is "Last Date," which feature the budding
yet already distinctive Misha Mengelberg and Han Bennink.
> The newly released REVENGE double cd features Dolphy. It is an official
> release of the Paris 1964 concert.
From the same tour there are also two officially released volumes recorded in
Germany, simply titled "Mingus in Europe" on Enja, which may be easier to find
in some territories and are of comparable worth.
> Dolphy also played on Mingus at Antibes (1960 Rhino/Atlantic) and on Mingus
> Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus (1961 Impulse).
"Mingus at Antibes" is for me a high water mark, with its scorching version of
"Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting." IIRC Dolphy is *not* on "Mingus Mingus
Mingus Mingus Mingus." He *is* on all four of Mingus's releases on Candid, of
which the most important is "Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus," which is
a quartet completed by Ted Curson and Dannie Richmond. This album rocks. And
there's a passage in the tune "What Love?" where Dolphy and Mingus toss ideas
back and forth from bass clarinet to string bass in a manner that can only be
called conversational -- sometimes it seems you can even make out the "words"
being spoken.
> Good stuff all around.
Agreed, clearly.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:19:13 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: COLTRANE
Brent Burton wrote:
> boy, i can't believe that no one has mentioned _impressions._ definitely
> my favorite coltrane disc after _a love supreme_. dolphy and coltrane
> kick *ass* all over "india." [snip]
> maybe the _impressions_ material has been included on the village vanguard
> box set. if so, i'd like to know.
"Impressions" did kick my ass early on, too, and it can probably be found used
now more than ever thanks to the box set - bargain hunters take note. Of its
four tunes, "India" and the title track are both included (in much better sound)
in the new Village Vanguard box set, and "After the Rain" was included in a 1993
disc called "Dear Old Stockholm," which included the complete surviving studio
recordings of the Coltrane quartet with Roy Haynes instead of Elvin Jones. That
leaves just "Up 'gainst the Wall" unavailable right now (I assume this disc is
out of print but could be wrong), and most of the odds and ends of the catalog
have been included as bonus tracks on chronologically related albums so I'd
count on seeing that track again someday as well. It's even possible that it's
already available on the new version of "Coltrane" which I don't have yet, but I
couldn't say for sure.
Steve "Talkin' David Wild Blues" Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:47:34 EST
From: JonAbbey2 <JonAbbey2@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: COLTRANE
In a message dated 1/24/98 3:22:02 AM, ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote:
<<That leaves just "Up 'gainst the Wall" unavailable right now (I assume this
disc is out of print but could be wrong), and most of the odds and ends of the
catalog
have been included as bonus tracks on chronologically related albums so I'd
count on seeing that track again someday as well. It's even possible that
it's
already available on the new version of "Coltrane" which I don't have yet, but
I
couldn't say for sure.>>
You have surmised correctly, Steve; both Big Nick and Up 'Gainst The Wall are
included as bonus tracks on the "Coltrane" reissue.
One thing I'd like to add to the Coltrane discussion is that the recent wave
of remasters on Impulse/GRP is sonically amazing. To my ears, the sound is so
much better than the first wave of Coltrane reissues that I would recommend
avoiding the earlier versions even if they're floating around used and cheap.
The easy way to tell the difference is that the earlier ones are in jewel
boxes while the remastered ones are in cardboard packs. Impulse is currently
in the middle of a program to remaster everything Coltrane did for them, so if
you have a choice, hold out for the new ones.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 04:18:21 -0600
From: Craig Rath <fripp@ibm.net>
Subject: My latest purchases
I sorta missed out on the top ten thing, so I thought I'd just throw out my
latest purchases with my initial thoughts and see what others have to say.
1. The Dead C - Tusk: very interesting stuff. Sort of like Gate meets KK
Null, or something. Recommended if you like interesting noise.
2. High Rise - Psychedelic Speed Freaks '84 - '85: This one is somewhere
between High Rise and Mainliner. The songs of High Rise done with the
production value (if that's an appropriate term) of Mainliner. In other
words, loud to the point of total amplifier blowout. Only recommended if
you like being hurt while you listen, which I sometimes do.
3. Swans - Swans are Dead: A good capsule of the last years of the Swans.
Disc one is from the final tour in 97 and disc 2 is from 85. Since I
wasn't able to get a tape of the 97 show, this is a welcome addition to the
collection.
4. The Red Krayola: So this is what Gastr Del Sol and company sound like
when they aren't in charge. Actually, I like it quite a bit, but it
definitely has Mayo Thompson's thumbprint on it. But then again, I'll buy
almost anything that O'Rourke has been involved with.
5. Gary Numan - Exile: Probably the first album he's put out in years that
I really like. I've liked a lot of his work in recent years, but
not most of it. The last entire album I liked was Warriors, and that was
what, 1983? Oh well. I guess I'll always be a member of the Tubeway Army.
6. Scorn - Zander: Mick Harris doing his dub thing. Like Numan, I guess
I'll always like Harris' stuff, even when it gets a bit repetitive.
7. Masada 7: Need I say more?
8. Bill Laswell - Sacred System Chapter Two: I love this. The mixture of
the subsonic bass with the clarity of the cornet is incredible. Not to
mention the other sounds and textures. Recommended.
9. Christian Marclay - More Encores: Highly Recommended. What this guy
does with other peoples' work is nothing short of brilliant. All you have
to do is listen to what he does with Maria Callas' work and you'll forever
be a fan of his abilities.
10. David Shea - Hsi-Yu Chi: Excellent. What he does here blew me away.
I've always been a fan of his work, but this piece shows to people (my
friends who think he's just a weird "sampler" guy) that he is very much a
modern composer who knows how to set moods and tell a story with music.
11. Vajra - Sichisiki: Keiji Haino in one of his bluesiest moments. Yet
another side to him.
12. Onna-Kodomo - Syuuka: Bass, Violin, Vocal and some guitar and
percussion. One of the most ethereal albums I've bought in a long time.
Yuko Hasegawa's voice is incredible, as are the moods that this album
induces.
13. Ground Zero - Plays Standards: One of the best of the year. If for no
other reason than it has brought about a whole new interpretation of other
great albums as Massacre's Killing Time and Omoide Hatoba's Kinsei. I've
played this one so many times that my friends are starting to get annoyed.
I need to find a complete discography of Otomo Yoshihide (although if there
is anything on there that is unavailable, I'll be plenty annoyed).
Anyway, there are a few others, but I haven't had enough time to listen to
them completely yet, such as Lustmord vs Metal Beast, Controlled Bleeding -
The Poisoner, and the compilation Release Your Mind vol. 2.
It's not really fair to call this my top ten of 97, since there were so
many others (and I'm sure not everything can be considered 97 releases),
and there are more than ten on the list, but this is my most recent kick.
By the way, if anyone knows of a good Z'EV disc to start out with, I'd
appreciate the info.
- - Currently playing: Dissecting Table: Mask - from Release Your Mind Vol. 2
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:25:34 +0100 (MET)
From: Age Rotshuizen <age@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Coltrane/Coleman/Dolphy
My recommendations:
Coltrane:
old-Coltrane: Blue Train
middle (=Atlantic) Coltrane: Giant Steps
new Coltrane: A Love Supreme
newest Coltrane: Meditations
Coleman:
The Shape of Jazz to Come
Free Jazz
At the "Golden Circle" Stockholm vols. 1&2
Dolphy:
Live at the Five Spot vols. 1&2
Out to Lunch
Try:
Charlie Haden - Liberation Music Orchestra
Charlie Mingus - BLak Saint and Sinner Lady
Charlie Mingus - MingusMingusMingusMingusMingus
Age
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 04:50:43
From: "Doug McKay" <mckay003@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Coltrane with Monk
Here I was chattering about how I liked Monk and hadn't really heard much
of Coltrane except that one album, and tonight I decided to listen to Monk.
So I take out LIVE AT THE FIVE SPOT and see on it, right there in red: "The
Thelonius Monk Quartet" and below that in smaller letters - "featuring John
Coltrane"!
But then, I'm red/green color blind and that red is damn near invisible to
me. I can't really read what it says unless I get right down there and
stare hard. Geez, can't designers take us color blind guys into account
when they use red or green on their stuff? At least the title's in white,
and there's a picture of Monk on the cover, so I'm not really going to get
very confused and think I'm putting on a Pantera CD or something.
Besides, on the back and on the spine it's just black and white so I should
have known Coltrane was playing on it. There's no excuse for this, I guess.
You people do know about this recording, don't you? It's from a 1957 gig,
and recorded by Coltrane's wife on their mono tape recorder. It's on Blue
Note. CDP 599786
You can hear the audience. Some woman just said something about her drink.
Doug McKay
In Minnesota
Smokin' a stogie, listening to Monk solo on Epistrophy.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:40:41 +0100 (MET)
From: Age Rotshuizen <age@xs4all.nl>
Subject: dolphy on mingus
>What Mingus albums does he play on? Most of his CD's don't list the lineups
>on the outside.
a lot. I know of "Black Saint and Sinner Lady",
"MingusMingusMingusMingusMingus", "Mingus at Antibes", "Charlie Mingus
presents Charlie Mingus", "Complete Townhall Concert", "The Great Concert
of Charlie Mingus" - all highly recommended,
Age
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:34:38 -0600
From: "todd furey" <tmfurey@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Coltrane
> Is there a video series on the history of jazz or even on part of its
> history? Sort of like the multivolume history of rock and roll available
> now? There should be. I'd love to see it.
There will be in the coming years, I think 2000, is the slated date for a
PBS special. The same director who did the civil war and baseball
documentaries is working on a ten part series of jazz history. I was told
it would be a decade by decade approach, the first episode must stretch
farther into the previous century though.
Coltrane Recommendation for avant garde fans, Om, Coltrane recorded this
album under the influence of LSD. To compare this to My Favorite Things
would be brutal. Rational thought must be left at the doorstep before
checking this album out. Great personnel with him:
òMcCoy Tyner piano òJimmy Garrison bass òDonald Garrett bass òElvin Jones
drums òJoe Brazil flute òPharoah Sanderstenor sax
This is coming as sort of an intro for me, I had joined the list about
three weeks ago and have laid back to check out the discussions. My name
is todd furey and I am a 22 year old student. I have been studying
American History at the University at Albany, NY. I have planned on a
career of teaching, to start at the secondary level while I pay off bills
and continue on with graduate work. I am heavily influenced by early
schools of jazz which I have been listening to for years, recently I have
found an interest in the music of john zorn. I hope to learn more from
all of you and join in future discussions. Thank you all
todd furey
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:43:12 -0500
From: Rich Williams <punkjazz@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Zorn in the Punk era
Doug McKay wrote:
>
> What was Zorn doing during the New York punk scene? I just finished the
> book by Legs McNeil and (can't recall her name) called PLEASE KILL ME.
> Robert Quine is quoted in there, concerning his work with Richard Hell. I
> know Quine worked with Zorn on Spillane. So there's some connection. Is
> there more?
In the late 70's, JZ's "working" group was with Eugene
Chadbourne and Polly Bradfield, and he was beginning to develop his
larger scale game
pieces. The first cross pollination between the free improv and punk
scenes that I remember was the original Golden Palomino's.which in turn
spawned The Locus Solus Trio of Zorn, Lindsay and Fier. This band,
played most of
their concerts at punk rock clubs. Of course, Arto had been in DNA and
Anton had been in The Feelies and Lounge Lizards, but that didn't cut
much with audiences. It was actually quite fun to watch the audience
during these gigs. You'd see everything from stunned silence ,to people
walking out, to shouts of "Bullshit" from club regulars.
I remember a Material concert at the Kitchen in 1981. Material
at that time, was popular in the punk clubs, and their early EP's were
somewhat in that vein, but when the gig turned out to be
Laswell, Zorn, Sharrock,Frith,Derek Bailey, and Charles Noyes doing free
improvs, they managed to disperse the audience in pretty short order. It
really wasnt until Mr Bungle,Naked City and Painkiller, that Zorn had
much of a following with Rockers.
The punk scene was, to a certain extent, about fashion, and
these guys were NOT fashionable.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:26:22 -0500
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Otomo discography (was My latest purchases)
At 04:18 AM 1/24/98 -0600, Craig Rath wrote:
>
>I need to find a complete discography of Otomo Yoshihide (although if there
>is anything on there that is unavailable, I'll be plenty annoyed).
Check out http://www2.gol.com/users/miyuki/yotomo/yotomo.html, which, as I
check this out again, lists a **new Ground Zero** album (pardon me while I
foam at the mouth... there, I feel better now), actually a live Cassiber
album with one of two disks remixed by Ground Zero. Anyway, lots of other
Otomo info here, part of a Japanese free improvisers site.
Oh yes, prepare to be plenty annoyed. Patrice's discography lists over 80
items and stops in April 1997.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@interagp.com
cdeupree@erinet.com
Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:35:02 -0500
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Material in the Punk era
At 09:43 AM 1/24/98 -0500, Rich Williams wrote:
> I remember a Material concert at the Kitchen in 1981. Material
>at that time, was popular in the punk clubs, and their early EP's were
>somewhat in that vein, but when the gig turned out to be
>Laswell, Zorn, Sharrock,Frith,Derek Bailey, and Charles Noyes doing free
>improvs, they managed to disperse the audience in pretty short order.
There's a complete live Material concert on DIW-389 that has a similar
lineup, Laswell, Beinhorn, Frith, Noyes, David Moss, and Mark Miller,
recorded at Soundscape on October 16, 1981, sounding much like free improv.
An interesting footnote to the whole Material experience, very percussion
heavy and not especially well recorded.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@interagp.com
cdeupree@erinet.com
Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #214
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