ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v02.n128

Internet Message Format | 1997-10-01 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (zorn-list Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn-list Digest V2 #128
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence:


zorn-list Digest       Thursday, October 2 1997       Volume 02 : Number 128



In this issue:

    Re: school
    Re: Dangerous ground
    Re: Dangerous ground
    RE: Gysi/tuba
    parachute box
    Re: Gysi
    Straylight @ the Knit
    Sigmoid Flexure at the Knit- reminder
    Re: Dangerous ground
    Game pieces, etc.
    Re: Dangerous ground
    Bernard Zekri
    Re: Dangerous ground

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:07:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: school

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Julian wrote:

> anyone know why School didn't turn up on the Parachute Years?

Probably because it's a Chadbourne composition.

Chris Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:05:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dangerous ground

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997 [e-mail] wrote:

> I guess my question is, was it worth it?  Was it necessary?  Does having these
> 'games' really make a difference in the final musical output?  Can anyone else
> comment?

Interesting questions, Peter.  First off, sometimes the games pretty
clearly make a difference in the way a piece sounds.  On the Parachute
box, this is clearest with "Hockey".  You'll notice that each performance
has a similar back-and-forth quality not shared by performances of other
pieces on th box.  Now, that's not to say that three musicians couldn't
have created the same noises without a game to guide them.  But this game
obviously leads them to make sounds within certain parameters.

     Second, the games seem to impose a Zornian sense of
structure on the players.  The majority of the performances involve the
kind of quick changes from one sound-event to another that Zorn favored in
the early part of his career.  It doesn't seem likely that all of these
musicians would have played that way outside of a game which
required/encouraged them to do so.

     Third, the game structure makes it easier for large ensembles, like
the one which performs "Archery", to improvise without the music becoming
overly cluttered.  While it's certainly possible for restrained players to
achieve this without some preconceived structure, such a structure is
certainly helpful.

     Fourth, it may not be so important that a game piece performance and
a totally free improvisation sound that different.  As Zorn writes in
the liner notes to _Pool_, "My concern is not so much with how things
SOUND, as with how things WORK."  It's certainly
a totally different experience as a performer, and it leads musicians to
think about what they're playing in a different way.  I can probably
expand on this point if people want to discuss it further.

> My background pretty much stops at Zorn, too.  Some may say it's criminal, but I
> have no real background in Parker, Bailey, Braxton, Chadbourne, etc.

That's criminal.  I'm calling the improv police.

>  I'm
> wondering if maybe that's the problem, like, it's a step in the development of
> improv that I'm seeing and not knowing the context, I might not see how radical
> it is.

Possibly.  It might be helpful to be familiar with other approaches to
structuring free music.  If you're interested in contrasting Zorn's
approach with others, you might check out Sun Ra's _The Magic City_,
Stockhausen's _Aus den sieben Tage_, and the London Jazz Composer's
Orchestra's _Ode_ strike me as some important earlier attempts to
structure free playing around something other than heads or modes without
just letting it all hang out.  And you might check out Butch Morris's
slightly later conduction pieces, such as _Current Trends in Racism in
Modern America_, for yet another take.

     Something that I've been thinking about lately is that the game-piece
approach in some ways loses much of what's most interesting about free
improvisation.  (Before I'm torn to bits, let me point out that I
really love this aspect of Zorn's work.  It sounds great, and on a certain
level, that's all that counts.)  The approach seems to be based on the
idea that what's important about free players is that they create very
unique sound-events, but it seems to me that much of the best free music
gets at least as much of its power from the novel stuctures which emerge
out of collective improvisation.  By imposing a metalogic on an
improvisation, Zorn keeps his musicians from doing one of the things
they're best at.  (Which is not to say that playing a game-piece does not
provide useful experience for improvisors.)

Chris Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:18:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dangerous ground

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Jascha W. Narveson wrote:

> i believe that this kind of
> textural noisey stuff isn't really that challenging to play.  It still
> takes quite alot of imagination, and, most importantly, *soul*, but no
> theory or 'chops' or knowledge of how conventional music works at all.

In some ways, this makes it more challenging.  There's nothing to fall
back on.  Of course, you can bullshit an audience sometimes.  But _you_
know when you've fucked up.  The vast majority of musicians in the history
of the world have done quite well without music theory.  I think it's also
misleading to say that it doesn't require chops.  If you're playing music,
you're using technique to do it.  Your technique is good if you can get
the sounds you want.  I do agree that this kind of music is open to
musicians with narrower technique than is required to play, say, bebop
piano, and in that sense it's more accessible.  However, its resistance to
theory makes it more mysterious in a way.

Chris Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 20:18:54 UT
From: "allen huotari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Gysi/tuba

Wadi Gysi is a guitarist

curious listeners are urged to investigate a recording on ReR entitled
"Vanishing Point" by the (EC) Nudes who are comprised of Wadi Gysi, Amy Denio,
and Chris Cutler. Not improv but "energetic and fun punk/folk/jazz/art-rock"
(to quote the Wayside catalogue) and "wow!" (to quote the Ponk catalogue)
actually fans of the Curlew/Amy Denio recording "Beautiful Western Saddle"
should want this disc also

another tuba recording of note is also on ReR and is entitled "Tuba Intim" by
Michael Vogt "a must for serious tuna lovers" (Ponk)

(and no I'm not on the Wayside or Ponk payroll)

tuba is also a prominently tasty feature of Henry Threadgill's Very Very
Circus recordings as well as a new one by the trio of Godard/Tadic/Nauseef
entitled "Loose Wires"

- ----------
From:     [e-mail] on behalf of Tom Pratt
Sent:     Thursday, October 02, 1997 1:32 AM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     Gysi/tuba

Does anyone here know what instrument a guy named Wadi Gysi plays. I've
discovered that he has a duo album out on Intakt with Hans Reichel who I
recently discovered and love. This album just might be of interest to
me. Any info is appreciated!

If anyone out there plays tuba, you need to go find Melvyn Poore's solo
tuba experiment's on Georg Graewe's Random Acoustics label. The album is
called 'Groundwork' and is all solo tuba compositions and improvisations
with assorted stereo delay, tape and live electronics systems. I just
got it and completely love it!

            -Tom Pratt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:41:56 -0800
From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: parachute box

Well, it's described in our house as my early Christmas gift from my wife,
but I call it a yummy tub o'fun. It's the Parachute Years...finally...here
in my home.

Okay, enough drama. I got the set today and will be spending the next
several days giving some close scrutiny. All I've heard is about the first
half of the Lacrosse disc (and some skipping around), and I have to say
that I thought it was great.

I was a tad nervous, I must say, after some of the previews here on the
list. I got the impression that it was going to be extremely challenging
listening. It is. I also got the impression it was a rather aimless period
musically. I found this was not the case. The improvs are bold with plenty
of left over phrasing.

After looking through the notes, I too wonder...why no "School"?


Todd Bramy
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 08:49:40 +0200
From: Stephane Vuilleumier <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gysi

I can give further details on the following records and quote all players
if anybody's offended but in essence Wadi Gysi plays guitar and
often other effects in "swiss german" groups like PALE NUDES / EC NUDES
(Denio, Cutler,ReR), BLAUER HIRSCH (with Werner Ludi, Unit), DIE HAND
(Peter Hollinger, Unit), Marco Kaeppeli connection (Plainisphere,
w/Nicolai, Koch,Schuetz), a unit compilation called 10 WIM Pern
(Unit)...There was also a group called Nuage du Courage (LP, Unit, 1987)
with Mich Gerber and Marc Jundt, which I
still listen to a lot.
BTW a catalogue of all this swiss label stuff (in english, german or
french) called Neighbours/Nachbarn/Voisins can be obtained from VIMS, the
association
of swiss improv musicians, at the following email address:
[e-mail]

Stephane

At 20:32 01.10.97 -0400, Tom Pratt wrote:
>Does anyone here know what instrument a guy named Wadi Gysi plays. I've
>discovered that he has a duo album out on Intakt with Hans Reichel who I
>recently discovered and love. This album just might be of interest to
>me. Any info is appreciated!
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 03:09:22 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Geoff S Gersh)
Subject: Straylight @ the Knit

The ambient/world music imrpov. trio, Straylight, will be appearing at
the Knitting Factory Saturday Oct. 4th at 11pm in The Alterknit.

Features:

    Charles Cohen - analog Buchla Sound Easel
    Jason Finkelman - African/Brazilian & found percussion
    and yours truely on electric guitar




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 09:11:45 -0400
From: Mason Wendell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sigmoid Flexure at the Knit- reminder

Ohaiyo Gozaimasu folks,


Just sending out a little reminder about the rip-roarin' Sigmoid show at
the Knitting Factory. VERY IMPORTANT!!!  Please note the new set time. I
wouldn't want any of y'all to fly in  to the only to have to wait two
hours to get in.


Mon 10/6 11:00 PM (not 9:00) - Sigmoid Flexure

     Knitting Factory's Alterknit Theater

     74 Leonard St, NYC   w/ Spooky Actions


Sigmoid Flexure, Mason from Blinder and Prelapse's free improvisation
group, will play the Knitting Factory on Oct 6th. The sound is most
quickly described as Loud Free Improv. If you'd like a more detailed
description...  "Mixing equal parts free jazz and punk rock, Sigmoid
Flexure finds a home between the walls of chaotic ambiance, hard-core
composition, and spoken text rivers" I promise a great show. Come on
down!


Megan Gass - vocals, effects (from Blinder)

Emily Weber - tenor sax (from Ever Since Day One)

Chris Lavender - vibraphone

Dane Johnson - fretless guitar (from Prelapse)

Mason Wendell - fretless bass (from Blinder and Prelapse)

Rohin Khemani - drums



Hope to see you in NYC!

Mason

<bold>



</bold>

                        Mason Wendell

    Blinder- http://www.tiac.net/users/prelapse/blinder.html

               Sigmoid Flexure- Loud Free Improv

Prelapse- the music of Naked City and new music for loud ensemble

              Freelance Computer Music Copying

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:07:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dangerous ground

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Jascha W. Narveson wrote:

> hm!  I've done stuff like this as well and it seemed to work fine.  I
> prepare to duck for cover as i say this, but i believe that this kind of
> textural noisey stuff isn't really that challenging to play.  It still
> takes quite alot of imagination, and, most importantly, *soul*, but no
> theory or 'chops' or knowledge of how conventional music works at all.

Sorry to be the curmudgeon, but there's a *big* difference between a
bunch of guys having fun with "textured noise" and working musicians
(Spontaneous Music Ensemble or Cobra or...) who have not only devoted
a large chunk of their lives to making improvised music, but also
(especially in the case of someone like Derek Bailey) spend a great deal
of each day practicing for these settings.  Yours is similar to the
old argument that someone's child could've painted a Picasso.  I think
you should give these guys a little more credit.

b

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:29:34 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Game pieces, etc.

On Wed,  1 Oct 1997 21:19:37 UT, [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a) a list of all the game pieces Zorn has written,
> b) what the concepts and/or mechanics are behind them and c) where
> I can find some scores?

   I don't know anything about where scores can be found, and I don't
know much about how the games work, but I have been compiling (in a
casual way) a list of Zorn's works so I can keep track of which ones
have not yet been recorded or released.  My main sources have been the
booklet for the Book of Heads, Cole Gagne's list of works in his
"Soundpieces 2," the notes from "Zornfest," and of course Patrice's
discography.  Some of the years might be wrong (Gagne's list doesn't
match up with the one in the Book of Heads), but the games thus far:

1977 Lacrosse (for between four and seven players)
1978 Curling (for four players?)
1978 Hockey (for three players)
1979 Pool (for four players)
1979 Archery (for twelve players)
1979 Tennis (for two keyboards or two drummers)
1980 Fencing (for three of the same instrument)
1980 Jai-Alai (opera) [a game opera? this is from Gagne's list]
1981 Croquet (for sixteen players)
1981 Go! (a play of roles)
1982 Track & Field (for any number of dancers, performance
     artists, and musicians)
1983 Rugby (for five players)
1983 Darts (for five dancers and five musicians)
1983 Sebastopol (for three trios [rock, classical, and improvising])
1984 Cobra (for ten or more players)
1985 Xu Feng (for six players)
1987 Ruan Lingyu (for three narrators and eight musicians)
1987 Hu Die (for two guitars and Chinese narration)
1988 Hwang Chin-ee (for two drummers and Korean narration)
1988 Que Tran (for two keyboards and Vietnamese narration)
1989 Bezique (for nine or more players)

and on Wed,  1 Oct 1997 21:28:12 UT, he wrote:
> I guess my question is, was it worth it?  Was it necessary?  Does
> having these 'games' really make a difference in the final musical
> output?  Can anyone else comment?

   The actual sound of a game piece is bound to share some
characteristics with that of a free improv by the same players.
However, the games force the players to concentrate on aspects of
playing and listening that they might ordinarily not consider.  They'll
still make that farting noise, but their reason for doing so will be
different.  This is somewhat like using Tarot cards--the cards don't
control anything by themselves, and your average rational person won't
agree that cosmic forces are guiding the cards, but the laying out of
the spread makes you consider aspects of your life that you may have
been ignoring, and thus focuses your meditation.  So the games focus
improvisation.  Very relevant here is Zorn's quote from Pool: "My
concern is not so much with how things SOUND, as with how things WORK."


- -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Dangerous ground

In a message dated 97-10-01 17:35:57 EDT, you write:

<< My friends and I used to gather in the studio of a local radio station and
make
 noise, noise, noise.  We'd bring every instrument and item we could get our
 hands on.  At one point, we even played against a recording of Zorn's
 Strategies, so it sounded like he was in the room with us.  (Actually, that
was
 pretty damn neat. It sounds really cool.)  In any case, the free-wheeling
stuff
 we did does not sound that different than the structurally 'composed'
Parachute
 stuff on the box set I just purchased.  Admittedly, I think we were advanced
in
 the stuff we were doing, because we had already talked about how people
don't
 have to play all the time, etc etc, so we got a good mixture of dynamics and
 sound qualities. >>

<< I guess my question is, was it worth it?  Was it necessary?  Does having
these
'games' really make a difference in the final musical output?  Can anyone
else
comment? >>

Hi all- first time poster after a week of lurking...

The free "jam" is the heartbeat of the improv movement.  After continual
meetings with musicians, you get to know what each musician does, feels,
loves, hates.  With no chart in front of you to dictate direction, each
musician is free to express himself alone, in duo, or with a group.  You can
choose to put down the horn and listen.  You can pick up the drumstick and
tap the bell of your horn.  You can read aloud from the book sitting on the
table next to you.  You can turn on the radio and play the Top 40 junk on
that FM station you absolutely hate.  It is structured anarchy.  It is
insanity crushing the structure.  It is the truest of expression that one can
share with their comrades while contributing to the whole.  It is freedom in
the truest sense.

Is it necessary?  Most definitely.  Is it "dangerous ground" to say that your
music is of an equal to Zorn's or any other musicians free jazz recordings?
 Absolutely not.  As far as i'm concerned, brilliance can be found anywhere
you look, you just don't always recognize it.

Hope this made sense.

=dgasque=

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 10:48:21 PDT
From: "David Brunelle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bernard Zekri

Can someone tell me who Bernard Zekri is? I've seen his name as
co-writer on a lot of the old Celluloid singles, and more recently on
the APC Tracks discs. I was curious to know what he plays, and what else
he has done aside from these albums. Thanks in advance.

Dave
[e-mail]

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:03:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Dangerous ground

In a message dated 97-10-02 11:10:26 EDT, you write:

<< Sorry to be the curmudgeon, but there's a *big* difference between a
 bunch of guys having fun with "textured noise" and working musicians
 (Spontaneous Music Ensemble or Cobra or...) who have not only devoted
 a large chunk of their lives to making improvised music, but also
 (especially in the case of someone like Derek Bailey) spend a great deal
 of each day practicing for these settings.  Yours is similar to the
 old argument that someone's child could've painted a Picasso.  I think
 you should give these guys a little more credit. >>

I've heard bad music by "working musicians" too.  I've heard good music by
weekend warriors.  Have you heard anything by Mr. Narveson to back up your
criticisim?

=dgasque=

------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #128
*******************************

To subscribe to zorn-list Digest, send the command:

    subscribe zorn-list-digest

in the body of a message to "[e-mail]".  If you want to
subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such
as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-zorn-list":

    subscribe zorn-list-digest [e-mail]

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
in the commands above with "zorn-list".

Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.