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Zorn List Digest        Friday, July 21 2000        Volume 02 : Number 1012



In this issue:
-
       Re: loos/armstrong
       Re: Boulez
       Odp: Boulez
       Odp: Odp: Boulez
       Odp: Why Redo Eno/Modern Orchestras/Experimental Music [long]
       Listening (Was: Why Redo Eno)
       Third Rail
       RE: Odp: Boulez
       Odp: Boulez
       TWO  INSPIRING CONCERTS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:08:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: loos/armstrong

Caleb:

I saw Loos at the Empty Bottle festival in May and felt about them live
as youi do about the CD. IMHO Dennis Rudge doesn't add anything to the
performance. As a matter of fact I had the unfortunate feeling I was
seeing a rock-style "runthrough" of the album. I may be wrong, but
because the band was perfoming Armstrong it seems as if there was very
little improvising (correct me if I'm wrong folks) and I was generally
unimpressed.

The friend who was with me from Toronto like the show though. But
he's Mr. electroacoustic. He also insisted that Van Bergen is a great
improviser. I'm prepared to hear him in another (non-vocals-added)
contect, but in this one he certainly didn't measure up to Gustafsson,
let alone Butcher.

Ken Waxman

On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

> Several years ago, Option magazine ran an article about three up-and-coming
> innovative sax players, John Butcher, Mats Gustafsson, and Peter Van
> Bergen, which was my first introduction to any of them.  After the recent
> posts by Jon and Stefan about Butcher and Gustafsson (whose group Gush I
> highly recommend), I feel compelled to round out the trio by commenting on
> the new album by Van Bergen's group, Loos.
>
> I've been impressed with Van Bergen's playing since I encountered him in
> some of Maarten Altena's groups in the 80s.  Like Butcher and Gustafsson,
> he avoids overly melodic playing for the more noisy spectrums, sometimes
> making me wonder if it's really a sax.  Loos is a very different group from
> Altena's.  Their previous album on Geestgronden presented thorny
> compositions, pointillistic playing from all (the group also includes
> piano, drums, guitar, and bass guitar), emphasizing silence and opening a
> wide variety of possibilities.  The titles emphasize the openness; most of
> them are part of what Van Bergen calls a 'Factor Series', because 'there is
> a row of factors which make up each piece, and you can switch from one
> chord to another but never in the same order' (from the notes to
> Armstrong).  The possibilities with this kind of composition bring the work
> in line with more classical contemporary composition as well as 'jazz.'
>
> The new album, entitled Armstrong (on Chicago's Okka label) adds Dennis
> Rudge on vocals, and for me, the difficulty of the compositions increases
> considerably with this new element.  Rudge performs dramatic recitations
> (in English), and once in a while he sounds like Louis Armstrong.  Most of
> the texts are taken from Armstrong pieces (one other is from Sun Ra -- with
> Ra's voice sampled -- and yet another is from an Italian Futurist opera),
> and some of the shorter pieces are no more than vehicles for Rudge.
> Rudge's expressiveness contrasts strongly with the abstraction of the
> music, and I'm not a huge fan of recitation with music anyway.  On some of
> the longer pieces, the group cuts loose with some noisy free jazz, and at
> one or two points they even swing a little bit.  These are the best moments
> for me, but I have to admit that this is still one of the more puzzling of
> my recent purchases, even as I find myself drawn back to it more often than
> usual.
>
> I'd be interested in reading any other comments about this group,
> especially if anyone's seen them live.  I'm curious to know about their
> performance practices.
>
> --
> Caleb Deupree
> [e-mail]
>
> Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
> like nobody's watching.
>
> -- Satchel Paige
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:41:43 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Boulez

On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:38:49 +0800  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I find this statement incredibly arrogant with the implications that he the
> composer is superhuman, and that he the composer is the only one capable of
> invention.

Arrogant statements by Boulez are numerous. There was a time (in the '50s) when
every music besides post-serial was considered by him as worthless (he even
went on to criticize his master, Messiaen!). Since he was the pope of the post-
serialist movement, this is not surprising. Unfortunately (for him, not for
us), one day, he realized that nobody was following him anymore (seeing
Stockhausen giving up on serial music and espousing Cage's other direction
might have been a painful bone for him to digest).

The man has mellowed down quite a bit with age, but the venom is never far
(see his recent comments on Xenakis, Shostakovitch, etc). Surprisingly, he
has been praising Dutilleux!

BTW, has anybody read Kyke Gann's comments on Boulez published a few months
ago in PULSE!, and specially what he said on LE MARTEAU SANS MAITRE. I felt
less stupid after that :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:58:05 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Boulez

From: <[e-mail]>

> Is it prudent to remind people that this is the same Boulez who said :
> "Instrumentalists do not possess invention - otherwise they would be
> composers. There has been a lot of talk of 'improvisation', but even taken
> in the best sense of the word it cannot replace invention. True invention
> entails reflection on problems that in principle have never been posed, or
> at least not in a manner  which is readily apparent, and reflection upon
[snip]

(i hope i got the snip thing correctly ;-)
I can see why it made you think so, but I believe we can see this statement
in a more interesting perspective, in which they would be not arrogant, but
just correct. I do not see them as critically pointed towards people like
Miles, Trane, or JZ etc. , but maybe it was supposed to criticize the
overemployed notion of 'composition' - every one of the zillions of jazz
neobop albums come with 'origignal compositions' on them. I do not see why
the fact that they are based on new set five notes makes that act creative -
why should not the credits go to Parker when all the sound and the idea
comes from him (and respectively, the britpop should be treated as if it was
composed by Beatles, etc - all that just as example, not supposed to be
historically strictly correct)? The guy recorded Zappa, let's remember it,
so he is not 'extra purist'. I am pretty sure he recognises the qualities of
'bithes brew' for exmaple. He  was also the guy who organised 'riots' during
first post - war presentations of neoclassical Stravinsky's works  in Paris
(I like the neoclassical stuff, it's just to show that seeing him as a kind
of 'gentle, classical purist' may be inappropriate).

> I do however like his conducting of Messiaen.
His conductings is always interesting, he's a great master.


Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:27:14 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Boulez

From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>

> PULCINELLA which belongs to the neo-classic period (1919?) and is a sort
of
> a la maniere de Pergolese. What I love in the ballet is the melodic
quality:
> almost every second of it can be sung, and the melody are beautiful. But
it
> is true that when listening to it, you feel more in the baroque period
than
> in the XX century!

I already sent an enthousiatic encouragement for that piece, but the nest
day when i thought again about your comment I came to think that your
comments may be the effect of the same problem i had for some time with that
tune. I wrote that there are very modern (inter alia) rhythmic elements in
it. In fact, it depends very strongly om the version you have. The first one
i got, Boulez's '80 recording on Erato seemed very baroque to me, i did not
see the modern elements. It's only when i got the original Stravinsky's
perforance i saw all the modern aspects  of the work: they were simply
hiiden in Boulez's recordng, while IS put them forward in a dramitical way
(BTW Abado does a similiar thing, his version is splendid). Only after
listening to the more  radical versions, i saw these strange things in
Boulez's performaence. They were rather hidden.


Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:55:26 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Why Redo Eno/Modern Orchestras/Experimental Music [long]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: James Graves <[e-mail]>

(quoting me)
>> 2)>BTW i hate the term 'experimental music'. music is music, one can


> Actually, experimental music is my favorite term for (most of) the music I
> listen to. In a very broad way, it's able to distinguish Cibo Matto from
> Britney Spears, Coltrane from Kenny G, Keiji Haino from Kenny Wayne
> Shephard, Cage from James Horner, and Zorn from Yanni. I think the former
> people have, for various reasons, created emotionally charged and
> interesting music that challenges the way I think about music and the
> world.

Of course. I did not mean that there's no such difference. I only say that
the experiment is IN MUSIC, so it should be valuated mostly in 'musical
terms'.

>The latter persons recycle current idioms into bland music that
> nobody will be listening to thirty years from now (although I think even
> that is giving James Horner a little too much credit...). I'll have to
> disagree with your statement that "if the experiment becomes the goal,
> there's no more music." We're back to Cage all over again, and I think
> while plenty of music that is done just for the hell of it can get bad,
> it's hard to call all purely theoretical sound "not music."

Well, I'm in a strange position, i agree with you intellectually, while
emotionally i feel that 'music is music'. Maybe I'm not right. But look:
when we talk about exoeriment we seem to have a clear vision of what its
succes (or failure) should be like. In music it's hard to tell that, music
is done for it's own sake. Also that distinction seems to indicate that
there's a special kind of music that should be innovative - KennyG can do
his stuff, and it's ok, his music  just is not experimental ( just as it's
not hard rock, so why don't you like me? Kg says). I also dislike the
epistemologiacal , scientific surroundigs of the word: that we should
'learn' something through it (and one can suppose that when some kind of
music does not make us learn, it is not good or at least innovative?). It
seems to suggest that music should serve some further goal. Which is
obviously false, of course (don't ask me why;-))
I just do not like the term.

> 3) I can't find the posting of it, but someone wrote that they are
> dissapointed with the repertoire of American orchestras, and their
> tendency to stop playing music composed past Mahler.  I don't know much
> about orchestra schedules around the country, but last fall I saw the
> Cleveland orchestra perform a Boulez piece that was kind of a concerto for
> three (four?) flutes with MIDI and orchestra,

...explosante-fixe...? A great tune.

>and then finish off the
> program with one of my favorite orchestral pieces, Debussy's La Mer. I
> guess this somewhat makes up for Cleveland's struggling underground music
> scene, but this is coming from a spoiled ex New Yorker.

Cleveland orchestrais one of world's top. They play on my favourite
rendition of 'rite  of spring' (Boulez 1992). Phenomenal.
Warsaw orchestra is just like 'pre mahler'. even worse, the gys here are
sentimental, so as we had Chopin's year in 1999, there was only Chopin, and
now we have the Bach year. Guess what we can listen to... realy it's hard to
get anything else then that stuff.
And the underground music life is nonexistant.

> Whew! Going to have to take a breather after that.
> Jamie

Me too ;-)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:43:43 -0700
From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Listening (Was: Why Redo Eno)

James Graves wrote:

The performance was incredible, and

> although it was impossible to stay rapt and attentive throughout the
> whole performance, the experience of floating in and out of sleep and
> thoughts, all the while having this ethereal, beautiful work floating
> around the concert hall. I remember reading somewhere that Noh theatre is
> best appreciated while half awake, and I will say the same thing for BOC's
> MFA's.
>

It's interesting that it's okay for an audience member's attention to wax and
wane in listening to a piece, but that the performers must stay absolutely
focused. I have the same ebb and flow of attention you mentioned, and I
consider it the major failing of how I listen to music. I work and I work on
the attention I bring to bear in listening to music, and the goal is to bring
the same intensity to listening that the performers bring to playing it. When
I was listening to BOAC's MFA the other night, I suddenly snapped to
attention during "2/2" and had my mind blown by how beautiful a piece of
music this was. Then I thought, "Shit, shit, I wish I'd been listening closer
to the first 7 minutes of this piece."

Maybe when I'm 80 I'll have trained myself to listen to music as fully as I'd
like. But maybe not.

William Crump



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:48:52 -0400
From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Third Rail

Hello list,

    any opinions on the band THIRD RAIL with Bill Laswell (and I think James
Blood Ulmer?).  I think they only have one album.  It's here in my local
used cd store, so I thought I'd check it out, but first I wanted to hear my
fellow Zornlisters' opinion :-)

Thanks in advance

Neil H. Enet
- ------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:37:29 -0400
From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Odp: Boulez

The early Boulez recordings that I've heard (on CBS/Sony) all strike me as
very bland.  His Webern set is all like that.   A lot of people rave about
his more recent recordings, such as Mahler 6 and 7 ... but the Snippets that
I've heard of those show more orchestral skill than vision.

Probably this has to do with the psychology of receiving a Boulez. During
his early years, orchestras (like the New York Phil) viewed him as some kind
of devil, whilst now the Vienna Phil sees him as some beholder of the great
tradition, "Mr. Clarity"

Didn't Orpheus CO record Pulcinella?

- -Ljova

- --------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://mp3.com/Ljova/

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Marcin Gokieli
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 1:27 PM
> To: Patrice L. Roussel
> Cc: A; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Subject: Odp: Odp: Boulez
>
>
> From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>
>
> > PULCINELLA which belongs to the neo-classic period (1919?) and is a sort
> of
> > a la maniere de Pergolese. What I love in the ballet is the melodic
> quality:
> > almost every second of it can be sung, and the melody are beautiful. But
> it
> > is true that when listening to it, you feel more in the baroque period
> than
> > in the XX century!
>
> I already sent an enthousiatic encouragement for that piece, but the nest
> day when i thought again about your comment I came to think that your
> comments may be the effect of the same problem i had for some
> time with that
> tune. I wrote that there are very modern (inter alia) rhythmic elements in
> it. In fact, it depends very strongly om the version you have.
> The first one
> i got, Boulez's '80 recording on Erato seemed very baroque to me,
> i did not
> see the modern elements. It's only when i got the original Stravinsky's
> perforance i saw all the modern aspects  of the work: they were simply
> hiiden in Boulez's recordng, while IS put them forward in a dramitical way
> (BTW Abado does a similiar thing, his version is splendid). Only after
> listening to the more  radical versions, i saw these strange things in
> Boulez's performaence. They were rather hidden.
> >


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:33:46 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Boulez

From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>
> Arrogant statements by Boulez are numerous. There was a time (in the '50s)
when
> every music besides post-serial was considered by him as worthless (he
even
> went on to criticize his master, Messiaen!). Since he was the pope of the
post-

That means that my previous post on that topic was completely mislead. Well,
I just love the man, he conducts too perfectly... and his own stuff is also
great.

> BTW, has anybody read Kyke Gann's comments on Boulez published a few
months
> ago in PULSE!, and specially what he said on LE MARTEAU SANS MAITRE. I
felt
> less stupid after that :-).

Who is Gann? what did he say? (I also would like to feel less stupid)
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:38:35 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: TWO  INSPIRING CONCERTS

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- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #1012
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