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Zorn List Digest       Thursday, July 20 2000       Volume 02 : Number 1011



In this issue:
-
       RE: melody (was re: Boulez)
       RE: melody (was re: Boulez)
       Re: Improv Name
       melody (was re: Boulez)
       RE: Improv Name
       FW: melody (was re: Boulez)
       Re: Boulez
       Re: Boulez
       Re: ?Improv?
       Re:melody (was re: Boulez)
       recent goodies
       Re: recent goodies
       Merzbox (with Cage question)
       loos/armstrong
       Why Redo Eno/Modern Orchestras/Experimental Music [long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:21:55 -0600
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: melody (was re: Boulez)



>I have read that for decades now, only the most select, cosmopolitan
American orchestras venture into performances of even the avantgarde of the
Twenties and Thirties, let alone later music; the rest are mired in earlier
repertoire which ends with Mahler...the _old_ seems to be the standard fare
for most orchestras.

I would say that this is probably accurate regarding orchestras but I see a
trend at this college to perform contemporary chamber works.  We had Joan
Tower and George Crumb visit last year and each time there was a full house
(it is neccessary to mention that "full" is only 300 people).  There's
plenty of traditional programing but there is an effort to at least
represent those modern works which are financially feasable.

>Finally, Copland identified recognizable melody as a signal characteristic
of "good" music in his book WHAT TO LISTEN FOR IN MUSIC, which is
persistently used as a text in Music Appreciation and even (for "majors")
Music Lit classes.

Who cares what Copland thinks people should listen for?  I sure don't.

>When was this book written?

c.1939

Matt Wirzbicki



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:47:56 CDT
From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: melody (was re: Boulez)

Scott:
> >Finally, Copland identified recognizable melody as a signal
>characteristic
>of "good" music in his book WHAT TO LISTEN FOR IN MUSIC, which is
>persistently used as a text in Music Appreciation and even (for "majors")
>Music Lit classes.

Matt:
>Who cares what Copland thinks people should listen for?  I sure don't.
>
> >When was this book written?
>
>c.1939

Way to be an individual.  But the book is a standard text.  And Copland is a
famous, famous man, whose music is popular.  Priorities like his cast a long
shadow; don't think listeners, amateurs, and young composers aren't taking
notice, and don't think their agreement with Copland's opinion won't make a
difference in what kinds of pieces are feasible; and don't think that the
economically feasible won't affect the field of possibilities, which in turn
changes the field of production.  Unless you're Anthony Braxton, in which
case go ahead and write music for one hundred orchestras on different
planets.  Actually, that's refreshing.  (Jack SMith's "What doesn't exist is
important..."---right on.) But music unheard is half-written.

BTW, FWIW, ASCAP, I don't agree with Copland's thesis---which I'm citing by
memory, so please understand it might be out of context; I might look it up
for the hell of things---either, and I felt the same way when I first read
it at age 17.  Such dogmatism is boring and unfounded, and robs one of the
pleasures of many forms of music.  Sort of like serialist dogmatism and
proclamations of "absolute modernity".

- ----s, show me the money

P.S. Where did that Jack Smith quote come from?  One of you uses/used it as
a .sig file.



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:54:20 -0400
From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Improv Name

Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I think the below examples have a lot
more to do with physical materials and equipment than the genre of music.  I
mean, even at the most boring academic computer-music concert a G3 can
crash.

Personally, I'm kind of uncomfortable with all "catchy" genre tags.  It
seems that people can only really use them in quotes a la "post-rock."  So I
generally use non-idiomatic or free improvisation or electroacoustic
improvisation for this stuff if I really have to describe it.

- -Jesse

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
>
> in the 24 hour MIMEO show, around 3 AM, the band played a section they
called
> "almost danceable". Pita was laying down the beats with his Mac, when he
> abruptly crashed and the unmistakable "bong!" of a Mac rebooting briefly
> replaced the beats.
>
> when Thomas Lehn plays his synth live, he programs patches in between
pieces,
> and he is often surprised by what they actually sound like when he begins
to
> play.
>
> in the Butcher/Durrant interactive duo, the music's not always under their
> total control. Durrant alters Butcher's sounds in real time, and in turn
the
> pitch and velocity of Butcher's saxophone automatically transform some of
the
> sounds coming from Durrant, a part of the process which is under neither
> musician's control.
>
> Jon
> www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
> -
>
>




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:02:34 -0600
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: melody (was re: Boulez)

>But the book is a standard text.

I'm a music major in a department that may not be amazing but it's
pretty darn good for a liberal arts school of 2000 and this text is not
required for any courses.

>Such dogmatism is boring and unfounded, and robs one of
>the pleasures of many forms of music.

this is why I don't care what Copland has to say.

Matt Wirzbicki



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:18:46 -0600
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Improv Name

>So I generally use non-idiomatic or free improvisation or electroacoustic
>improvisation for this stuff if I really have to describe it.

non-idiomatic seems relatively accurate in terms of attempting to describe
what people might want to point to as the goals of the music even if it is
academic.  I don't quite see why electroacoustic improv. is not a feasible
title.  Eddie Prevost uses the title "metamusic" in his book
_No_Sound_is_Innocent_.  This also seems appropriate to me.

Matt Wirzbicki


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:32:12 -0600
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: melody (was re: Boulez)

>But the book is a standard text.

I'm a music major in a department that may not be amazing but it's
pretty darn good for a liberal arts school of 2000 and this text is not
required for any courses.

>Such dogmatism is boring and unfounded, and robs one of
>the pleasures of many forms of music.

this is why I 'm not interested by what Copland has to say.

Matt Wirzbicki



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:38:49 +0800
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Boulez

Hi,

Is it prudent to remind people that this is the same Boulez who said :

"Instrumentalists do not possess invention - otherwise they would be
composers. There has been a lot of talk of 'improvisation', but even taken
in the best sense of the word it cannot replace invention. True invention
entails reflection on problems that in principle have never been posed, or
at least not in a manner  which is readily apparent, and reflection upon
the act of creation implies an obstacle to be overcome. Instrumentalists
are not superhuman, and their response to the problem of invention is
normally to manipulate what is stored in the memory. They recall what has
been already played, in order to manipulate and transform it."

I find this statement incredibly arrogant with the implications that he the
composer is superhuman, and that he the composer is the only one capable of
invention.

I do however like his conducting of Messiaen.

regards,
Billy



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:46:31 +0800
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Boulez

Hi,

Is it prudent to remind people that this is the same Boulez who said :

"Instrumentalists do not possess invention - otherwise they would be
composers. There has been a lot of talk of 'improvisation', but even taken
in the best sense of the word it cannot replace invention. True invention
entails reflection on problems that in principle have never been posed, or
at least not in a manner  which is readily apparent, and reflection upon
the act of creation implies an obstacle to be overcome. Instrumentalists
are not superhuman, and their response to the problem of invention is
normally to manipulate what is stored in the memory. They recall what has
been already played, in order to manipulate and transform it."

I find this statement incredibly arrogant with the implications that he the
composer is superhuman, and that he the composer is the only one capable of
invention.

I do however like his conducting of Messiaen.

regards,
Billy



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:25:44 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: ?Improv?

In a message dated 7/19/00 3:58:20 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< In truth, it matters little what you (we) decide to "name" the music, it
will pick up a name by itself, like Jazz or The New Thing or Bebop or
Rockabilly.

In other words the music will organically find its own name. >>

but someone has to create that name, be it a musician or a writer or a label
owner. I don't think the term dangerous improv is perfect either, which is
why I'm asking for opinions/suggestions.

my favorite suggestion so far (via private e-mail) is Pokemon improv (because
you have to collect them all.)

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 2000 02:54:44 -0000
From: "Tim Keenliside" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:melody (was re: Boulez)

Finally, Copland identified recognizable melody as a
signal characteristic of "good" music...

"Melody is tyranny...

_____________________________________________________________
Email your boss can't read - sign up for free disinfo.net email
at http://www.disinfo.com, your gateway to the underground

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:39:04 +0200
From: Verstraeten Stefan <[e-mail]>
Subject: recent goodies

Hello Zornies,

Just to let you know that two new musical gems have arrived from INCUS
records:

The first is a cd by Jim O'rourke & Mats Gustafsson, called Xylophonen
virtuosen. I only received it yesterday, so it's very difficult to describe
this recording. I am not familiar with the works of Mats Gustafson, so it
was the first time I hear one note of this player. This recording is made in
the finest tradition of INCUS, wich is absolute free music. Both players
work with a vast range of musical instruments: tenor sax, fluteophone, flute
(Mats), guitar and junk (Jim). So don't expect academic free playing, but a
journey through sounds. It's good to hear Jim play again in his adventurous
style, and a wonderful introduction (for me) to Mats playing.

The second on is a cd by Derek Bailey (guitar) and Alex Ward (clarinet),
called LOCationAL. This recording is not a first encounter between those two
improvisers, and that can be heard. I know Alex Ward from his recordings
with doctor chadbourne, where he plays on a regular basis in one of his
crazy ensembles. And it is that joy and crazyness that can be found back on
this release. Never thought that a clarinet would follow the sounds of derek
bailey so good. Maybe this is not the best recording that Derek Bailey ever
did, but the disc is full of joy and humor.

As allways, the cheapest way to order these releases (for europeans) is to
order it from INCUS records itself. The price is 12 pounds including p&p.
Please contact Karen Brookman of incus records at the email address
[e-mail] or check out their website
http://www.incusrecords.force9.co.uk
Perhaps interesting to note is that INCUS distributes also all the
recordings that feature Derek at the same price (even the import titles)...

Best wishes,

Stefan Verstraeten

NP Merzbox, disc number 32 from the merbox....

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:25:14 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies

At 09:39 AM 7/20/00 +0200, Verstraeten Stefan wrote:
>
>NP Merzbox, disc number 32 from the merbox....

Any comments so far on disks 1-31?

- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

- -- Satchel Paige

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:31:06 +0200
From: Verstraeten Stefan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Merzbox (with Cage question)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Caleb T. Deupree [mailto:[e-mail]]
Subject: Re: recent goodies


At 09:39 AM 7/20/00 +0200, Verstraeten Stefan wrote:
>
>NP Merzbox, disc number 32 from the merbox....

Any comments so far on disks 1-31?


(stefan) Any comments? Why not? (but sorry for my bad english)
In general I would say that there is defintely an evolution on these discs.
All the 50 cd's are in chronoligal order. The first cds date from the end of
the 70's, I believe (don't have them all with me right now). At this time,
Merbow was making noise music, just by experimenting with his sound gear
(this may sound crazy, but he admits it, these are records that just consist
of test noise sounds, like overdrive etc.). Naturally, in the next few
years, a new style is happening: controlled feedback, more filters, the use
of limiters and editing... After this period, it is realy getting
interested: Merzbox starts experimenting with found sounds: tape, recorded
guitar and drum loops (most of them played by himself), piano strings,
samples from his own previous recordings. This period is compared with John
Cage's "cartridge music", but I really don't know what this is all about
(Joseph Zitt, or anybody else, can you help me with this one... what was
this period for Cage?).

So, at this time I have almost finished this period. I'll give my opnion on
the rest later.

As a conclusion, I still like this project. But yes, it is for die hards
only.. I admit, cd's that are filled with testing equipment sounds, unedited
and with no structure; some people will find this crazy... and I think they
are even right too. But if you see the 50 cds together, they learn you how
an artist like Merzbow works and progresses through the years. It prooves
that noise music is just not harsh sounds (only perhaps in the first years),
but it is also about creating a soundscape with it, in wich it is great to
get lost...

Best wishes from Belgium

Stefan Verstraeten

NP AUBE: G.R.O.S.S. japanese noise compilation tape

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:50:41 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: loos/armstrong

Several years ago, Option magazine ran an article about three up-and-coming
innovative sax players, John Butcher, Mats Gustafsson, and Peter Van
Bergen, which was my first introduction to any of them.  After the recent
posts by Jon and Stefan about Butcher and Gustafsson (whose group Gush I
highly recommend), I feel compelled to round out the trio by commenting on
the new album by Van Bergen's group, Loos.

I've been impressed with Van Bergen's playing since I encountered him in
some of Maarten Altena's groups in the 80s.  Like Butcher and Gustafsson,
he avoids overly melodic playing for the more noisy spectrums, sometimes
making me wonder if it's really a sax.  Loos is a very different group from
Altena's.  Their previous album on Geestgronden presented thorny
compositions, pointillistic playing from all (the group also includes
piano, drums, guitar, and bass guitar), emphasizing silence and opening a
wide variety of possibilities.  The titles emphasize the openness; most of
them are part of what Van Bergen calls a 'Factor Series', because 'there is
a row of factors which make up each piece, and you can switch from one
chord to another but never in the same order' (from the notes to
Armstrong).  The possibilities with this kind of composition bring the work
in line with more classical contemporary composition as well as 'jazz.'

The new album, entitled Armstrong (on Chicago's Okka label) adds Dennis
Rudge on vocals, and for me, the difficulty of the compositions increases
considerably with this new element.  Rudge performs dramatic recitations
(in English), and once in a while he sounds like Louis Armstrong.  Most of
the texts are taken from Armstrong pieces (one other is from Sun Ra -- with
Ra's voice sampled -- and yet another is from an Italian Futurist opera),
and some of the shorter pieces are no more than vehicles for Rudge.
Rudge's expressiveness contrasts strongly with the abstraction of the
music, and I'm not a huge fan of recitation with music anyway.  On some of
the longer pieces, the group cuts loose with some noisy free jazz, and at
one or two points they even swing a little bit.  These are the best moments
for me, but I have to admit that this is still one of the more puzzling of
my recent purchases, even as I find myself drawn back to it more often than
usual.

I'd be interested in reading any other comments about this group,
especially if anyone's seen them live.  I'm curious to know about their
performance practices.

- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

- -- Satchel Paige

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:08:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Graves <[e-mail]>
Subject: Why Redo Eno/Modern Orchestras/Experimental Music [long]

I'm going to jump in on a few threads at once here:

1) >why redo it? it was classic upon its first release by Eno...
   >i don't think this version is impressive at all.
Actually, I love Bang on a Can's version for all the reasons previously
mentioned, the timbral richness, etc. I saw a performance of Music for
Airports by Bang on a Can two years ago, and I remember reading somewhere
that their object was (as in most of their music) to bring Eno into the
concert hall, to treat the piece as not just background music, but as a
piece worthy of serious consideration, thus the increased depth and timbre
of their version.  The performance was incredible, and
although it was impossible to stay rapt and attentive throughout the
whole performance, the experience of floating in and out of sleep and
thoughts, all the while having this ethereal, beautiful work floating
around the concert hall. I remember reading somewhere that Noh theatre is
best appreciated while half awake, and I will say the same thing for BOC's
MFA's.

2)>BTW i hate the term 'experimental music'. music is music, one can
>experiment with sounds one use, but its goal remins musical qualities. If
>experiment becomes the goal, there's no more music (of course i do not
>think that it's always like that with what is called 'experimental
>music'). Again, I totally agree with you (besides that #%$%! word....)

Actually, experimental music is my favorite term for (most of) the music I
listen to. In a very broad way, it's able to distinguish Cibo Matto from
Britney Spears, Coltrane from Kenny G, Keiji Haino from Kenny Wayne
Shephard, Cage from James Horner, and Zorn from Yanni. I think the former
people have, for various reasons, created emotionally charged and
interesting music that challenges the way I think about music and the
world. The latter persons recycle current idioms into bland music that
nobody will be listening to thirty years from now (although I think even
that is giving James Horner a little too much credit...). I'll have to
disagree with your statement that "if the experiment becomes the goal,
there's no more music." We're back to Cage all over again, and I think
while plenty of music that is done just for the hell of it can get bad,
it's hard to call all purely theoretical sound "not music." Such a
statement completely invalidates Zorn's Game Pieces as music, and if they
aren't music, then what would you propose to call them? My favorite
definition of what is and isn't music comes from Frank Zappa, who wrote
something to the effect of: "Music [art] is in the frame, the rest is just
taste."

3) I can't find the posting of it, but someone wrote that they are
dissapointed with the repertoire of American orchestras, and their
tendency to stop playing music composed past Mahler.  I don't know much
about orchestra schedules around the country, but last fall I saw the
Cleveland orchestra perform a Boulez piece that was kind of a concerto for
three (four?) flutes with MIDI and orchestra, and then finish off the
program with one of my favorite orchestral pieces, Debussy's La Mer. I
guess this somewhat makes up for Cleveland's struggling underground music
scene, but this is coming from a spoiled ex New Yorker.

Whew! Going to have to take a breather after that.

Jamie


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #1011
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