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Zorn List Digest       Wednesday, July 19 2000       Volume 02 : Number 1010



In this issue:
-
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re: masada (was: Re: Odp: Boulez)
       Ray Anderson/What Because
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       BOAC Music for Airports
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #1009
       Hooker/Ranaldo/Marclay
       Re: Ray Anderson
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re: reich (bang on a can)
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       melody (was re: Boulez)
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re: ?Improv?
       Odp: BOAC Music for Airports
       Re: Odp: Boulez

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:56:14 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:50:06 -0500  Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I notice that, some hardcore protesters aside (and please, this is all
> hypothetical, I'm not pointing at anyone in particular and I'm often as guilty as
> anyone else), the audiences seem to still be growing... It seems both ironic and
> completely normal that as more and more Zornies gripe about the continuing Masada
> concept, there are more and more folks coming aboard every day.

I would have no problem with Masada if there were something else... I am not
against people having fun (although in this very situation, I am the one not
having any :-).

> Regardless of anything I've just said, the Masada quartet is still one of the
> best working acoustic jazz bands currently playing.  But for many that
> description will be enough of a limitation to turn off.

Nobody has complained about the quality of Masada. In fact, that is maybe the
problem with Masada: everything is so perfect (the playing, the energy, the
compositions). The problem is that old timers like me came to Zorn
for reasons totally opposed to what Masada represents. Now I am willing to
sacrifice my pleasure for the benefit of the masses, but at a price: that I
open my mouth once in a while to complain about the "good old time" :-).

I feel like in the position of a Stravinsky lover wondering, in 1919, what
happened to his favorite composer, and expecting it was just a temporary
break. Maybe with Zorn's new project...

It is strange that Zorn has been keeping himself "electronics-free" since I
would expect that with his approach (specially from the early '80s, with the
swift shifts, game call noise), the results could have been terrific.

BTW, wasn't Zorn the young composer who (in 1985) was making fun at Braxton
and Lacy for putting out too many records?

    Patrice (who does not listen to Zorn very often these days but loves
        the man).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:15:41 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada (was: Re: Odp: Boulez)

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:47:37 +0200  patRice wrote:
>
> patRice
>
> np: indochine "3" (and i don't even feel embarrassed)

The French band?

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:39:00 -0700
From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ray Anderson/What Because

I have it and enjoy it.
Recorded at A&R Recording Studios, NYC November 15,21,29 1989.
Mixed at Gramavision Studio NYC December 16,16,18 1989.
released 1990
Ray Anderson -- Trombone
Allan Jaffe -- Guitar
John Hicks -- Piano
Mark Dresser -- Bass
Pheeroan akLaff -- Drums


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:11:31 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:28:39 -0400  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:52:53PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > As far as I know, Ravel is one of the last melodic composers,
>
> Say what? The massive majority of music being composed and performed
> right now is melodic. What could that statement possibly mean?

OK, I meant in the classical music field (I thought that it was obvious, that
I was not talking about rock).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:38:45 CDT
From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

[re:Masada]
>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>I feel like in the position of a Stravinsky lover wondering, in 1919, what
>happened to his favorite composer, and expecting it was just a temporary
>break. Maybe with Zorn's new project...

I suppose it _is_ a bit strange how much time Zorn's emptied into the Masada
quartet, certainly in terms of output.  I found that the "older" work (not
exactly true, as I enjoy his other recent compositions almost as much as the
earlier work, i.e. 80s) worked on _several_ "problems" within the course of
any given piece, whereas _individual_ problems seem to dominate much of the
Naked City "bar" music, most of the Masada (Quartet) pieces (and this by
Zorn's suggestion), and _all_ of the Ornette tribute project.  To rephrase:
the music by Zorn that's more interesting to me shuns the "concept" in favor
of confronting an Alexandrian knot (??) of problems.  I fear for Zorn's
oeuvre just a little bit----Masada was supposed to disband years ago, was it
not?  Was it not designed as a workshop, i.e. limited forum for the
exhaustion of a finite cluster of problems, much like NC?  Masada has
quietly (huh?) persisted, though.  Keith Jarrett never pulled out of his
Standards Trio tailspin, and now he never will; so we have a bloated catalog
of critically acclaimed albums which sound, for the most part, homogeneous.
Much like the Masada catalog.  Trainspotters rejoice!  Yet they _kick ass_.
I couldn't leave a band like that, either, especially if I, too, was the
weakest link.  Kind of like leaving Uma Thurman, or Daniel Day Lewis if you
prefer.

>It is strange that Zorn has been keeping himself "electronics-free" since I
>would expect that with his approach (specially from the early '80s, with
>the
>swift shifts, game call noise), the results could have been terrific.

In a very early interview in downbeat, from early eighties, I think, JZ
suggests that he'll soon purchase some electronics, the "look out" (his
words.  Dammit!  We've been looking out....

- -----s, Ethan Hawke must die
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:59:15 -0700
From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: BOAC Music for Airports

m wrote:

>
>
> does anyone have any comments about
> the bang on a can music for airports
> how does it compare with the original
>
> thanks
>

I'm fresh off of listening to this last night, and can tell you I love
it to pieces. It's so much more timbrally rich (which wouldn't be hard,
usually, with Eno's generative process music) than the original, but
very accurately played, too.  And more emotional. I wish I could have
been a fly on the wall when (if) Eno first heard BOAC's version.

William Crump


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:22:06 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #1009

In a message dated 7/19/00 5:12:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< the bang on a can music for airports
 how does it compare with the original >>

why redo it? it was classic upon its first release by Eno...
i don't think this version is impressive at all.

ben

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:26:06 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Hooker/Ranaldo/Marclay

Can anyone give me a review of the william hooker/lee ranaldo/christian
marclay album "bouquet" out on knitting factory?
thanks.

ben

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:06:22 CEST
From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ray Anderson

>*** - WHAT BECAUSE: Ray Anderson
>
>   Ray Anderson: trombone; John Hicks: piano; Allan Jaffe: guitar; Mark
>   Dresser: bass; Pheeroan Aklaff: drums.
>
>     ???? - Gramavision (USA), ??? (??)
>
># Review in EAR October 1990 (pp. 51)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Sorry, but I don't know the release date, although I would assume that 1990
>is a good guess.
>
>    Patrice.

recorded in NYC, Nov 15+22 1989

Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:16:34 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

On Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 08:11:31AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:28:39 -0400  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:52:53PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> >
> > > As far as I know, Ravel is one of the last melodic composers,
> >
> > Say what? The massive majority of music being composed and performed
> > right now is melodic. What could that statement possibly mean?
>
> OK, I meant in the classical music field (I thought that it was obvious, that
> I was not talking about rock).

Hmm... are you saying that no one in classical music is currently
writing melodies? What about (off the top of my head) Phillip Glass,
John Williams, John Corigliano, et al? And no longer with us, but
post-Ravel, there were Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Alan
Hovhaness, and many others. heck, even John Cage and Morton Feldman
unleashed a melody now and then.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:36:32 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: reich (bang on a can)

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:36:18 +1000  m wrote:
>
> apologies if this has already been asked
> does anyone have any comments about
> the reich bang on a can release (ny counterpoint etc)

I think it is a splendid record and the rare FOUR ORGANS gets a top notch
performance (almost as good as the reference -- the one performed by Michael
Tilson Thomas, Ralph Grierson, Roger Kellaway, and Steve himself).

Perfect intro to Reich since you get his first non-process composition (FOUR
ORGANS) as well as two mid-period ones, including the gorgeous EIGHT LINES.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:02:52 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

    Joseph,

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:16:34 -0400  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> > OK, I meant in the classical music field (I thought that it was obvious, that
> > I was not talking about rock).
>
> Hmm... are you saying that no one in classical music is currently
> writing melodies? What about (off the top of my head) Phillip Glass,

Does Phillip Glass do? I never noticed, but I am quite ignorant of his
'80s and '90s output.

> John Williams, John Corigliano, et al? And no longer with us, but
> post-Ravel, there were Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Alan
> Hovhaness, and many others. heck, even John Cage and Morton Feldman
> unleashed a melody now and then.

If you use exceptions (case of Cage and Feldman) to try to make a rule :-).

What I was trying to say was that in Europe, melody was dwindling in
importance starting in the late 19th century, to the point where it was
almost totally dropped with Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varese, and even
most of Debussy (although Ansermet claims that everything that Debussy
did was about melody). In this almost disappearance of melody, Ravel
stands in a unique and awkward position, at least in Europe (although
there Milhaud...).

Since I am not familiar with the American composers that you mentioned
(Copland, Hovhaness), my statement might have been a little bit strong
(but I said "one the last melodic composers", not the last, which
should cover my ass).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:40:34 CDT
From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: melody (was re: Boulez)

>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>What I was trying to say was that in Europe, melody was dwindling in
>importance starting in the late 19th century, to the point where it was
>almost totally dropped with Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varese, and even
>most of Debussy [snip]

I'm just not sure enumerating composers and comparative visibility would
help us chart the demise/fluctuation of melody's role in Western art music.
But Patrice's point about the enormous impact of the "pantonal" and
serialist fashions, the antipathy towards tonal centers (quite a bit before
Derrida, no?)---isn't this only applicable toward academic music?  I have
read that for decades now, only the most select, cosmopolitan American
orchestras venture into performances of even the avantgarde of the Twenties
and Thirties, let alone later music; the rest are mired in earlier
repertoire which ends with Mahler.  Yes, of course there are exceptions,
like the occasional Sibelius (very melodic), Debussy, Copland, Bernstein,
etc.  But the familiar, the canonical, and above all the _old_ seems to be
the standard fare for most orchestras, most of the time.  Is this unfounded?
  Could someone verify or debunk this?  What is the European art music
performance scene like?  In other words: has the exhaustion, irrelevance,
finitude, or even unpopularity of recognizable melody actually been a
primarily academic phenomenon---music we never hear anyway?  Nadia Boulanger
instructed everybody, but she famously encouraged Astor Piazzola to pursue
his tango roots.  Exception?  Yes, but...   Other than orchestral Pink Floyd
(somebody hand me the Pepto), the contemporary orchestral music most
identified with "classical music" is _film music_.  Are these not composers?
  Has this not had an effect on the gross quantity of music written today,
whether we happen to hear it or not?  Finally, Copland identified
recognizable melody as a signal characteristic of "good" music in his book
WHAT TO LISTEN FOR IN MUSIC, which is persistently used as a text in Music
Appreciation and even (for "majors") Music Lit classes.  When was this book
written?  I notice a new hardback edition will be published this year.

Upon being asked by a compostion teacher how I felt about the "return" of
tonality and simple melodies, I responded that I'd never known it had been
gone.

- ----s

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:18:49 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

On Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 12:02:52PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Does Phillip Glass do? I never noticed, but I am quite ignorant of his
> '80s and '90s output.

He's written some of my favorite melodies, such as the "Hymn to the
Sun" from Akhnaten and some of the "Songs from Liquid Days".

> What I was trying to say was that in Europe, melody was dwindling in
> importance starting in the late 19th century, to the point where it was
> almost totally dropped with Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varese, and even
> most of Debussy (although Ansermet claims that everything that Debussy
> did was about melody). In this almost disappearance of melody, Ravel
> stands in a unique and awkward position, at least in Europe (although
> there Milhaud...).
>
> Since I am not familiar with the American composers that you mentioned
> (Copland, Hovhaness), my statement might have been a little bit strong
> (but I said "one the last melodic composers", not the last, which
> should cover my ass).

Well, if you accept the idea that European-drived concert music is the
only music worth discussing, ignore the wide array of music originally
written for films, and skip the New Romantic blip of the '80s, that
view of Ravel might hold. But it's sorta like saying that Zeppo was
the funniest of the Marxes, except for his brothers.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:05:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ?Improv?

In truth, it matters little what you (we) decide to "name" the music, it
will pick up a name by itself, like Jazz or The New Thing or Bebop or
Rockabilly.

Leonard Feather didn't like the term The New Thing (he didn't much like
the music either, but that's another story) so he decided to call it the
Cosa Nostra (or some such). No one else picked up on what they called
Free Jazz, Avant Garde, The New Thing, Black Classical Music etc. Buy if
you read old Leonard Feather liner notes you'll see him nattering away
using that expression.

In other words the music will organically find its own name.

Ken Waxman


On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 [e-mail] wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/18/00 5:57:32 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << I still tend to like the (arguably antiseptic) term of Bailey's:
> non-idiomatic
> improvisation. >>
>
> oh, yeah, that's really catchy. could you make it longer and drier, please?
>
> a couple of more genre name candidates from musicians (from the StN article):
>
> Otomo Yoshihide: un-name music
> Kevin Drumm: stuff (which makes even non-idiomatic improvisation look
> exciting)
>
> Jon
> www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:55:16 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: BOAC Music for Airports

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>

> very accurately played, too.  And more emotional. I wish I could have
> been a fly on the wall when (if) Eno first heard BOAC's version.

It was made with eno's help and support so he knows the stuff. As for the
richer sound, the eno version is obviusly deliberately monochromatic.
Anyhow, a great record
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor
- ----- Original Message -----


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:38:44 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:18:49 -0400  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> Well, if you accept the idea that European-drived concert music is the
> only music worth discussing, ignore the wide array of music originally
> written for films, and skip the New Romantic blip of the '80s, that
> view of Ravel might hold. But it's sorta like saying that Zeppo was
> the funniest of the Marxes, except for his brothers.

I was definitely thinking about European classical contemporary music,
and not because I think that it is the only music worth discussing (if
it was the case I would not be on this list). Maybe I am too biased
by the old continent, and tend to ignore what is not avant garde in
the US (hence an almost total ignorance of Copland, Bernstein, etc).

Back to Ravel, I still believe he is one of the few who wrote "pure"
melodic music (such as MA MERE L'OYE, TOMBEAU DE COUPERIN), by pure
I mean that melody is everywhere (you could whistle these two
compositions from beginning to end). Not only you can whistle them,
which is a characteristic of many top50 on the radio, but there are
also delicate and wonderful.

Anyway, IMHO, I can't think of anybody after him who could do that to
such extent (friends mentioned a few names, but I never felt they even
reached Ravel's ankle). I think he made an art of writing classical music
where melody was still a strong drive, and not by simply borrowing from
popular forms (although he did it often). Again in the European classical
contemporary music...

Ravel also wrote music with very little melody (such as DAPHNE ET CHLOE,
that after 30 listenings, I still have troubles to follow...).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #1010
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