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Zorn List Digest        Tuesday, July 18 2000        Volume 02 : Number 1008



In this issue:
-
       zorn and the knit
       Re: cobra
       Re: cobra
       Re: cobra
       Ray Anderson
       Re: cobra,
       Re: Ray Anderson
       mobbed interview
       RE: cobra,
       ?Improv?
       Boulez
       Re: ?Improv?
       Re: Boulez
       genre naming
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re: ?Improv?
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re: PROMO: John Butcher/Phil Durrant-Requests and Antisongs
       Odp: cobra,
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re:  Boulez

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:07:05 GMT
From: "Matt Krefting" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn and the knit

i know this has been discussed on the list before, but i have to ask about
it again since a friend of mine wants to mention the issue in an article
he's writing:

does anyone know of a dependable place to find out about zorn's attitude
towards the knitting factory? i've heard that he hates it and stopped
playing there, but at the same time i know he filled in for the YBO2 gig. if
he really does hate it so, what are his reasons for feeling that way? any
help is greatly appreciated. thanks in advance...
matt
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:07:58 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cobra

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:59:30 PDT  "William York" wrote:
>
> >>Does any one know where I can get a copy of Cobra Live 92. <snip>
>
> >It was my impression that the Tom Cora tribute (IT'S A BRAND NEW DAY) >was
> >produced by John Zorn at the condition that the COBRA would be >deleted.
>
> I also heard it was deleted, but I see it used a lot -- more than just about
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which should surprise nobody...

> any other Zorn CD. If you want I could go try and find one, because I'm
> pretty sure I could. But I would also guess that he will eventually reissue

I saw a copy at the Victo festival. You might check with them, maybe they do
mail order.

> it on Tzadik as well.

Since Zorn hates the record, this is highly unlikely.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:16:29 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cobra

On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:07:58PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Since Zorn hates the record, this is highly unlikely.

Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons?

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:08:20 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cobra

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:16:29 -0400  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons?

I don't know. I remember that it took forever for the record to come out (was
announced for mid-1993; came out early 1995), but I think it was because of
graphic designs issues.

I guess you would like to know if it is for the music, but I don't know.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:00:19 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ray Anderson

Does anyone know anything about a Ray Anderson album "What Because"? I just
heard about it, had never heard of it at all before... I know the track
listing, but not a year or list of musicians.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:05:00 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: cobra,

 >Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons?

Could be because the album is just bad--I've read many negative reviews of it.
Does anyone out there who owns it want to submit a review?
~Eriedell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:24:50 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ray Anderson

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:00:19 +1000  "Julian" wrote:
>
> Does anyone know anything about a Ray Anderson album "What Because"? I just
> heard about it, had never heard of it at all before... I know the track
> listing, but not a year or list of musicians.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** - WHAT BECAUSE: Ray Anderson

  Ray Anderson: trombone; John Hicks: piano; Allan Jaffe: guitar; Mark
  Dresser: bass; Pheeroan Aklaff: drums.

    ???? - Gramavision (USA), ??? (??)

# Review in EAR October 1990 (pp. 51)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but I don't know the release date, although I would assume that 1990
is a good guess.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: mobbed interview

http://vermontreview.tripod.com/Interviews/sexmob.htm

__________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:38:33 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: cobra,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 2:05 PM

> Could be because the album is just bad--I've read many negative
> reviews of it.
> Does anyone out there who owns it want to submit a review?

I've only sold back three Zorn CDs in my entire life; that was one of them.

My verdict: I figure Cobra's one of those things I really have to watch to
appreciate. I just could not get into it.

I figure the Cobra live at the KF cd ends up in used cd bins more for the
above reason, and also the fact that it's way cheaper than the Cobra stuff
on Avant. So it served, as it did for me, as the first intro to Zorn's game
pieces.

Later,
Ben

np: "aperitivo"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:44:32 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: ?Improv?

[e-mail] wrote:

> thanks, Patrice. so, as long as you're bringing it up, what do you think of
> my genre name  for the new wave of electroacoustic improv, dangerous improv?

Hmm..."dangerous" seems to be a bit of a loaded term, no?  I still tend
to like the (arguably antiseptic) term of Bailey's: non-idiomatic
improvisation. Not that it's possible, let alone easy, to remain
non-idiomatic for long, but it would seem to give one something to shoot
for.

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:33:00 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Boulez

Okay,
I am not very familiar with Boulez. I've only heard his conducting of
Zappa's 'The Perfect Stranger.
Does Boulez have any albums of the more standard repertoire?  Some shining
examples, perhaps?

Also, what are some good orchestral Zappa things to get?  (Avoided using the
term 'classical', barely caught myself.)

    thanks in applesauce,
      -samuel yrui


Marcin said:

"Boulez is also, needless to say, an incredible conductor. His recent
recordings of Stravinsky and Bartok, for example, are incredible."


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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:53:34 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: ?Improv?

In a message dated 7/18/00 5:57:32 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I still tend to like the (arguably antiseptic) term of Bailey's:
non-idiomatic
improvisation. >>

oh, yeah, that's really catchy. could you make it longer and drier, please?

a couple of more genre name candidates from musicians (from the StN article):

Otomo Yoshihide: un-name music
Kevin Drumm: stuff (which makes even non-idiomatic improvisation look
exciting)

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:53:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Boulez

In a message dated 7/18/00 6:34:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Also, what are some good orchestral Zappa things to get?  (Avoided using
the
 term 'classical', barely caught myself.)

     thanks in applesauce,
       -samuel yrui



The Yellow Shark

________________________________________
Top 10 CD's for July

1.  Masada Live in London 2000
2.  "In His Own Sweet Way"  Dave Brubeck Tribute
3.  Iris Dement  "Infamous Angel"
4.  Billy Bragg/Wilco -- "Mermaid Avenue 2"
5.  Miles Davis -- "Complete Live At The Plugged Nickel"
6.  Thomas Chapin -- "Alive"
7.  Buena Vista Social Club
8.  Johnny Cash -- "American Recordings"
9.  The Best Of Patsy Cline
10.  The Clash -- "London Calling"

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:55:33 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: genre naming

In a message dated 7/18/00 2:13:05 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Personally I like Kenneth Goldsmith's "glitchwerks" better >>

my problem with glitchwerks or glitchprov is that they imply that mistakes
are being made. there's something subtly demeaning about them, I think.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:04:09 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

hm.
My question in response to Patrice talking about melodic quality and being
able to sing a piece all the way through. (Like Beethoven's fifth.)  I've
noticed on this list a propensity to rave about compositions or composers
that are revolutionary.  People who have, as David Rosenboom put it in his
Arcana contribution, "propositional music."  I'm not saying other forms
aren't respected.  Let me just hurry on to my point or question.
  I've noticed more and more lately that music considered by most to be
propositional or revolutionary, have less and less melodic elements. True,
Masada has brilliant and beautiful melodies, but Masada's reputation as
something new does not come from melody alone, but it seems to me more for
anthropological (izzat a word?) reasons.  Naked City would be more in it's
abilities of fusing musical worlds.  I don't know.
  I meant for this to focus more on recent 'written notation' and/or
orchestral and small acoustic ensemble composers.





Patrice wrote:

What I love in the ballet is the melodic quality:
almost every second of it can be sung, and the melody are beautiful. But it
is true that when listening to it, you feel more in the baroque period than
in the XX century!




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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:56:57 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ?Improv?

[e-mail] wrote:

> oh, yeah, that's really catchy. could you make it longer and drier, please?

Neo-Brownian, asymptotic, faux-Mandelbrotian, non-idiomatic improv?

B.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:06:18 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

hm.
My question in response to Patrice talking about melodic quality and being
able to sing a piece all the way through. (Like Beethoven's fifth.)  I've
noticed on this list a propensity to rave about compositions or composers
that are revolutionary.  People who have, as David Rosenboom put it in his
Arcana contribution, "propositional music."  I'm not saying other forms
aren't respected.  Let me just hurry on to my point or question.
  I've noticed more and more lately that music considered by most to be
propositional or revolutionary, have less and less melodic elements. True,
Masada has brilliant and beautiful melodies, but Masada's reputation as
something new does not come from melody alone, but it seems to me more for
anthropological (izzat a word?) reasons.  Naked City would be more in it's
abilities of fusing musical worlds.  I don't know.
  I meant for this to focus more on recent 'written notation' and/or
orchestral and small acoustic ensemble composers.  I like a lot of
stravinsky's later neo-classic stuff.  And Schoenberg considered melody the
most important factor in music.
  I guess what I'm asking is can anyone recommend any music that you'd
consider recently revolutionary for reasons based purely on beauty of and
quality of melody making?

   thanks,
     -samuel, who trips over his own words much too often.





Patrice wrote:

What I love in the ballet is the melodic quality:
almost every second of it can be sung, and the melody are beautiful. But it
is true that when listening to it, you feel more in the baroque period than
in the XX century!




________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:22:33 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PROMO: John Butcher/Phil Durrant-Requests and Antisongs

In a message dated 7/18/00 2:25:41 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< <no improvs are dangerous in any meaningful sense.)>

There's always the danger of looking foolish.  >>

yeah, this is kind of what I mean, there's obviously no physical danger. a
few examples:

in the 24 hour MIMEO show, around 3 AM, the band played a section they called
"almost danceable". Pita was laying down the beats with his Mac, when he
abruptly crashed and the unmistakable "bong!" of a Mac rebooting briefly
replaced the beats.

when Thomas Lehn plays his synth live, he programs patches in between pieces,
and he is often surprised by what they actually sound like when he begins to
play.

in the Butcher/Durrant interactive duo, the music's not always under their
total control. Durrant alters Butcher's sounds in real time, and in turn the
pitch and velocity of Butcher's saxophone automatically transform some of the
sounds coming from Durrant, a part of the process which is under neither
musician's control.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:22:52 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: cobra,

I had it and traded it for some other stuff. One of the least intersting
Zorn releases IMO (although nothing comes close to the intergalictic maiden
ballet w/ Zorn. Nobody wants to trade, btw?)
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: cobra,


> >Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons?
>
> Could be because the album is just bad--I've read many negative reviews of
it.
> Does anyone out there who owns it want to submit a review?
> ~Eriedell
>
> -
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:52:53 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:06:18 CDT  "samuel yrui" wrote:
>
> My question in response to Patrice talking about melodic quality and being
> able to sing a piece all the way through. (Like Beethoven's fifth.)  I've
> noticed on this list a propensity to rave about compositions or composers
> that are revolutionary.  People who have, as David Rosenboom put it in his
> Arcana contribution, "propositional music."  I'm not saying other forms
> aren't respected.  Let me just hurry on to my point or question.
>   I've noticed more and more lately that music considered by most to be
> propositional or revolutionary, have less and less melodic elements. True,
> Masada has brilliant and beautiful melodies, but Masada's reputation as
> something new does not come from melody alone, but it seems to me more for
> anthropological (izzat a word?) reasons.  Naked City would be more in it's
> abilities of fusing musical worlds.  I don't know.
>   I meant for this to focus more on recent 'written notation' and/or
> orchestral and small acoustic ensemble composers.  I like a lot of
> stravinsky's later neo-classic stuff.  And Schoenberg considered melody the
> most important factor in music.
>   I guess what I'm asking is can anyone recommend any music that you'd
> consider recently revolutionary for reasons based purely on beauty of and
> quality of melody making?

The problem is that the revolutionary content of melodic music (if there was
any) has more or less been exhausted a long time ago. That does not preclude
the production of more fantastic songs (as rock music proves it every day),
but there is not a lot in this genre for people looking for "revolution".

As far as I know, Ravel is one of the last melodic composers, and he is
usually ranked low in the hierarchy of modern composers (since he did not
produce any technical breakthrough but just tried to distill Debussy's
achievements to a level of perfection unexpected).

To go back to Samuel's comment, I almost feel the opposite. I have detected
recently more and more tiredness for "experimental" music. It is as if after
so many decades, people are tired of music that wants so hard to be innova-
tive (at any price). At the same time, the specialized audiences are getting
more and more "guettoized" -- the less of an audience, the more convinced
the cheerleaders are that the music is on the right path. The result is
an increased fragmentation of experimental music that the optimists confuse
as a good sign... It is not a surprise that THE WIRE covers so large! Since
every individual genre is getting smaller and smaller every day.

Jon Abbey's comment in StN about how very few music are interesting him these
days is symptomatic: there are very little escapes left in experimental music,
since most of the genres acknowledged as experimental these days have been
repeating themselves for a few decades (put your favorite artist name here)...
Jon's interest is concentrating on one of the very few island left where there
is still some experimentation and... originality.

Coming back to the list topic, have people noticed how non-experimental most
of the NYDS music has become recently? In fact, you could almost interpret
a vast majority of the NYDS music as a come back to rhythm and melody (Balkan
music, klezmer, revival, a la maniere de Schummann/Mahler/etc, etc).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:06:16 -0400
From: Mathieu Belanger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Boulez

Hello,

>  I guess what I'm asking is can anyone recommend any music that you'd
>consider recently revolutionary for reasons based purely on beauty of and
>quality of melody making?

Can I suggest godspeed you black emperor! for this?

Well, their music is not really revolutionary - probably more a complex
amalgame of very different musical/cinematographic/social influences and
personal backgrounds - and it is very far from jazz/avant-garde/call-it-what-
you-want, but it is defintely based on pure beauty and on the repetition of a
(usually) very simple melodic pattern, all of this mixed with a phenomal
progression of intensity. They can reach and maintain for five minutes a
level of musical/emotional power very few musicians can even think of! Oh,
and they are definitely the only band doing this kind of music, even though
it is not a criteria for considering something revolutionary...

Mathieu

P.S. Sorry for talking about this band again...


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #1008
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