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Zorn List Digest       Wednesday, July 19 2000       Volume 02 : Number 1009



In this issue:
-
       Odp: Odp: Boulez
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       godspeed you black emperor!
       Re: boulez
       Re: godspeed you black emperor!
       La Monte
       Re: Boulez
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       Re: Odp: Boulez
       reich (bang on a can)
       Odp:  Boulez
       Zapa (was Re: Boulez)
       masada (was: Re: Odp: Boulez)
       Odp: reich (bang on a can)
       Odp: Odp: Boulez

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:07:15 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Boulez

From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>
> Besides THE RITE OF SPRINGS and PETROUSHKA, you need not to forget LES
NOCES
> (THE WEDDING).

We had some discussion on that list on different versions of 'les noces'. I
bought recently a very fine recording of bth versions on Hungarton,
conducted by Peter Eotvos. A great recording, although may be difficult to
find ( i bought it during my recent trip to Hungary).

> THE FIREBIRD shows the influence of Rimsky-Korsakov and is the perfect
fourth
> choice. It is interesting in the sense that it shows from where Stravinsky
> came.

I 'd also recommend the new Boulez version. Abstract music, abstract sound.

> Now I am gonna mention two ballets that people usually hate:
> PULCINELLA which belongs to the neo-classic period (1919?) and is a sort
of
> a la maniere de Pergolese. What I love in the ballet is the melodic
quality:
> almost every second of it can be sung, and the melody are beautiful. But
it
> is true that when listening to it, you feel more in the baroque period
than
> in the XX century!

I love it! My greatest hit of my the 1999 summer. I know three versions of
that piece: the one conducted by Stravinsky being my favourite, Abbado on
the 2cd set i mentioned in my previous post comes close, and has incredible
moments; and Boulez on Erato (early '80s recording. Not very special).
I'd disagree with you as to the baroque feel. of course, melodies are
baroque, but arrangemants and RHYTHM is purely modern. An incredible piece.
I do think that 'pulcinella' had a great impact on JZ. His manner of working
with alien styles shows great influence of such work. It's also mentined in
'influences' on NC's Radio, if i remember correctly.

> APPOLON MUSAGETE, also considered as belonging to the neo-classic (1924?),
> is a gorgeous piece for strings. People usually considered it as boring
but
> I find it quite moving and fairly unique (in the sense that what he
borrows
> is less that what he brings).

I am not very enthousuastic about that one. Maybe i should give it a listen
now...
Starvinsky's piece that i would recommend is The Rake's Progress. The
ultimate neoclassical piece. I'm pretty sure that Zorn knew it very well
(lightspeed changes of musical material, etc.)
Another great piece - a very short one, about 2 mins- is Introitus (TS
Ellliot ad memoriam). A beautiful piece for chorus and percussion. A must!

And talking about Stravinsky's pieces, i forgot to mention 'L' histoire du
soldat'! I'm sure everybody on that list would love it... The thing that
turned me into a Stravinsky maniac I am now... My choice for beginners.
If you buy it, be sure to buy the the version without narration (or buy the
two versions...) There's also a version for three instriuments. Interesting,
but after you know the full suite version.

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:47:46 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

In a message dated 7/18/00 7:53:59 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Jon Abbey's comment in StN about how very few music are interesting him
these
days is symptomatic >>

ooh, just to clarify here, I was quoted as saying "I find myself bored with
most forms of acoustic improv I hear these days, both in clubs and on record."

I don't have a problem finding 40 or 50 records each year for my best of
list, and I actually think that there's probably more great records being
released now than ever before, although part of that is attributable to the
sheer number of CDs available.

<<have people noticed how non-experimental most of the NYDS music has become
recently?>>

and on a related topic, I think it's interesting how long Zorn has stuck with
the Masada project. didn't he stop Naked City after a few years because he
thought they had run their course?

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:54:41 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: godspeed you black emperor!

In a message dated 7/18/00 8:12:12 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Can I suggest godspeed you black emperor! for this?


Well, their music is not really revolutionary - probably more a complex

amalgame of very different musical/cinematographic/social influences and

personal backgrounds - and it is very far from jazz/avant-garde/call-it-what-

you-want, but it is defintely based on pure beauty and on the repetition of a

(usually) very simple melodic pattern, all of this mixed with a phenomal

progression of intensity. They can reach and maintain for five minutes a

level of musical/emotional power very few musicians can even think of! Oh,

and they are definitely the only band doing this kind of music, even though

it is not a criteria for considering something revolutionary... >>

I like godspeed a lot, and have seen them live three times, but their use of
gradually building crescendos (a huge component of their music) is completely
derived from the Dirty Three. they're also quite indebted to the Rachels.
also, I feel like their spoken word end-of-the-world-is-nigh pieces worked
very well in 1998 and 1999 when there was a fin-de-seicle mentality, but they
don't seem to hold up as well in 2000. I'm very curious to hear their
forthcoming double CD this fall.

damn, I'm posting a lot today.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:29:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: boulez

> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:33:00 CDT
> From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Boulez
>
> Does Boulez have any albums of the more standard repertoire?  Some shining
> examples, perhaps?

At least some knowledgable individuals consider Boulez's handling of the
'standard' repitoire to be dry, logical, calculated, devoid of emotion or
expression, etc (see, e.g., Joan Peyser's _To Boulez and Beyond_).
Peyser, in my recollection, appears to attribute Boulez's even agreeing to
conduct any 'standard' classical peice to the failure of Boulez's
considerable reputation to bring about an appreciation of modern classical
works in an american audience (when he was hired by some american
orchestra in the 70's? can't remember which one: New York, Cleveland,
Chicago?).  Since everyone was complaining about the amelodic atonal
'non-music' he was programming, he was forced to do standard classical
pieces to keep the $$$ flowing.  Perhaps he's changed his tune now; but in
1994, during his 70th birthday series of concerts with the LSO, I don't
recall anything more 'standard' than Stravinsky (I only witnessed 3 of
them, so I could be mistaken). As for not being emotional, I beg to
differ: the performance of a series of peices by
Webern I witnessed was jaw-dropping and to me at least, incredibly
emotionally charged (the series Webern wrote about
discovering the death of his mother, I think).  Hmmm..the tornado warning
sirens are going off (np - tornados), so, to wrap up: one recommendation
is to go right to what Boulez is best known for: his own music, and, as a
conductor in particular, his handling of Webern.  That's what got me,
fwiw.

rrose,
whit

np - the wrath of nature


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:46:03 -0400
From: Mathieu Belanger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: godspeed you black emperor!

Hello,

>I'm very curious to hear their forthcoming double CD this fall.

Logically, it should include the various unpublished titles they've been
playing live for the last two years, i.e. "3rd Part", "Monheim", "Hung Over
as the Queen in Maida Vale part II"(?) "John Hughes", "Gathering Storm",
"World Police", "12-28-99" and maybe some new titles that will be premiered
(if they exist!) during their two upcoming concerts at the Knitting Factory
in August.

What I am even more curious is what will the package look like! Constellation
usually creates wonderful packages for their releases.

For those interested, the title of the double cd is _Lift your Skinny Fists
Like Antennas to Heaven_. No release date yet, but tour dates have been
posted on the Constellation web site (http://www.cstrecords.com).

I hope it will be useful to some of you,

Mathieu


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:11:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Marc Couroux <[e-mail]>
Subject: La Monte

Hey all,

I second that request for copies of La Monte Young "Well Tuned
Piano"...but also the "Forever Bad Blues Band", both long since out of
circulation. Seeing as La Monte's not about to release anything else (!)
in the near future, these items are getting more precious by the second...

Marc

*******************************************************************************
Marc Couroux
http://pages.infinit.net/kore/couroux.html
Ensemble KORE
http://pages.infinit.net/kore




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:48:29 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Boulez

At 07:44 PM 7/17/00 -0700, A wrote:
>
>I just finished seeing a Pierre Boulez performance, conducting the
>Salzburg Philarmonic in 1992 and it blew me away...any good pointers
>on where to start exploring his music???

Although most of the respondents have mentioned his conducting, his
compositions are excellent, and most of the orchestral works are available
with Boulez conducting.  Although you can't really go wrong with any of
them, especially later compositions, my highlights are:

Ritual & Eclat/Multiples, two orchestral works.  Ritual is a memorial for
Bruno Maderna, very rhythmic and relatively easy to grasp, although there
is a lot going on.  Eclat/Multiples is a work for piano and ensemble, very
nice later Boulez.

2nd Piano Sonata, an undisputed masterpiece of 20th century piano music,
and more characteristic than either the 1st or 3rd.  The 3rd is perhaps
more famous because of the open structure, where the performer must make
decisions, kind of like picking a route through a city, but this makes for
more difficult listening.  The 3rd is also unfinished.  The story goes that
Boulez took some of the draft material and used it in Eclat (an early
version of Eclat/Multiples).  The 1st seems like a sketch for the second,
and was still in his early serial phase.

Pli Selon Pli, a chamber work with soprano and texts by Mallarme.
Generally I don't like sopranos, but half the work is instrumental, and
Boulez composed the strings in quarter tones, which makes for very
interesting listening.


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

- -- Satchel Paige

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:28:39 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:52:53PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> As far as I know, Ravel is one of the last melodic composers,

Say what? The massive majority of music being composed and performed
right now is melodic. What could that statement possibly mean?

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:50:06 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez

[e-mail] wrote:

> and on a related topic, I think it's interesting how long Zorn has stuck with
> the Masada project. didn't he stop Naked City after a few years because he
> thought they had run their course?

But remember, too, that Zorn retired Masada once already, too, a couple of years
ago - it just didn't stick.  Of Masada's brief death and quick resurrection, I
can only report that, according to conversations with various principals and
others close to the man, Zorn has mainly stuck with Masada for so long because
it's too much *fun* for him to give up.  Pure selfishness, then, and if it's
true, then G*D bless him.  That's the purest, most honorable motive I can
imagine, and I will only endorse it.

I notice that, some hardcore protesters aside (and please, this is all
hypothetical, I'm not pointing at anyone in particular and I'm often as guilty as
anyone else), the audiences seem to still be growing... It seems both ironic and
completely normal that as more and more Zornies gripe about the continuing Masada
concept, there are more and more folks coming aboard every day.

Regardless of anything I've just said, the Masada quartet is still one of the
best working acoustic jazz bands currently playing.  But for many that
description will be enough of a limitation to turn off.

Just my 2 cents,
Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - nothing, but I did go hear Tom Benton's awfully fine Blue Noise Band a bit
earlier this evening...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:36:18 +1000
From: m <[e-mail]>
Subject: reich (bang on a can)

hello

apologies if this has already been asked
does anyone have any comments about
the reich bang on a can release (ny counterpoint etc)

also

does anyone have any comments about
the bang on a can music for airports
how does it compare with the original

thanks

marco :)



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:12:22 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp:  Boulez

From: samuel yrui <[e-mail]>

> Does Boulez have any albums of the more standard repertoire?  Some shining
> examples, perhaps?

Go and buy the DG recordings of stravinsky's Rite and Bartok's miraculous
anadarin&music for strings,percussion&celesta (what a piece, btw...). You'll
be listening to it for years

> Also, what are some good orchestral Zappa things to get?  (Avoided using
the
> term 'classical', barely caught myself.)

The yellow shark is THE one. Ensemble Modern is now touring with new
material (could not catch them for financial reasons) so a new CD of his
music by them could be on the way.
The Yellow sharkk is a recording of a rare beauty. Really incredible.
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:47:17 +0200
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zapa (was Re: Boulez)

samuel yrui wrote:

> Also, what are some good orchestral Zappa things to get?  (Avoided usin=
g the
> term 'classical', barely caught myself.)
>

i must admit that none of the orchestral zappa stuff really did it for me.

"yellow shark" was a bit too much "comedy"-like.

and the two recordings zappa did with the london symphony orchestra simpl=
y
reminded me way too much of var=E8se. the latter, zappa stated lots of ti=
mes, had
been a great influence on him. so if i want that kind of sound, i'd rathe=
r
stick with the original. (btw: i can only recommend the var=E8se "complet=
e works"
that came out on decca - if memory serves right - last year.)

patRice


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:47:37 +0200
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada (was: Re: Odp: Boulez)

[e-mail] wrote:

> and on a related topic, I think it's interesting how long Zorn has stuck with
> the Masada project. didn't he stop Naked City after a few years because he
> thought they had run their course?

i actually remember joey baron telling me that one of the reasons for which
"naked city" split up was that they all felt they were becoming too popular. he
said that everyone involved started feeling like it was simply taking up too much
of their time, and that they felt like they didn't have enough time left to work
on their own projects.

patRice

np: indochine "3" (and i don't even feel embarrassed)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:34:36 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: reich (bang on a can)

From: m <[e-mail]>

> does anyone have any comments about
> the bang on a can music for airports
> how does it compare with the original

It's a great album, I like it very much. the compositions are the same, but
the sound is completelty different. I specially like I and the IV.
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:35:00 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Boulez

 On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:06:18 CDT  "samuel yrui" wrote:

> >   I meant for this to focus more on recent 'written notation' and/or
> > orchestral and small acoustic ensemble composers.  I like a lot of
> > stravinsky's later neo-classic stuff.  And Schoenberg considered melody
the
> > most important factor in music.
> >   I guess what I'm asking is can anyone recommend any music that you'd
> > consider recently revolutionary for reasons based purely on beauty of
and
> > quality of melody making?

I would recommend Brian Eno, his early pop albums are very innovatice while
still being melodic. Crazy pop songs with a weird sound. Very
underestimated. As to Strainsky's neolclassicism, as i said, give rake's
progress a try. it's even more 'singable' then pulcinella, and Auden's
libretto is way beyond anything i've ever seen.


 Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]> wrote:

> The problem is that the revolutionary content of melodic music (if there
was
> any) has more or less been exhausted a long time ago. That does not
preclude
> the production of more fantastic songs (as rock music proves it every
day),
> but there is not a lot in this genre for people looking for "revolution".

> To go back to Samuel's comment, I almost feel the opposite. I have
detected
> recently more and more tiredness for "experimental" music. It is as if
after
> so many decades, people are tired of music that wants so hard to be
innova-
> tive (at any price).

Well, i feel it is largely a matter of words. We may say that
revolutionarity is still in lack of melody, but revolutionarity is no more
very exciting, or we may say that we are here with a new 'neoclassical '
rwevolution (JZ would be its master, with all the jewish themes, and a large
use of melody overall). But i agree absolutely with your opinion.

> Jon Abbey's comment in StN about how very few music are interesting him
these
> days is symptomatic: there are very little escapes left in experimental
music,
> since most of the genres acknowledged as experimental these days have been
> repeating themselves for a few decades (put your favorite artist name
here)...
> Jon's interest is concentrating on one of the very few island left where
there
> is still some experimentation and... originality.

BTW i hate the term 'experimental music'. music is music, one can experiment
with sounds one use, but its goal remins musical qualities. If experiment
becomes the goal, there's no more music (of course i do not think that it's
always like that with what is called 'experimental music').
Again, I totally agree with you (besides that #%$%! word....)

> Coming back to the list topic, have people noticed how non-experimental
most
> of the NYDS music has become recently? In fact, you could almost interpret
> a vast majority of the NYDS music as a come back to rhythm and melody
(Balkan
> music, klezmer, revival, a la maniere de Schummann/Mahler/etc, etc).

It's just as in the 20s, the new thing was the 'neoclassicism'. I feel we
are in a similiar situation now. Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #1009
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