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v02.n075
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1997-04-13
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From: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com (zorn-list Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: zorn-list Digest V2 #75
Reply-To: zorn-list@xmission.com
Sender: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com
Errors-To: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com
Precedence:
zorn-list Digest Sunday, April 13 1997 Volume 02 : Number 075
In this issue:
Re: Zony Mash
Masada-live
The "T" word
Re: Greg Cohen (Was: "Waits related Ribot")
Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #74
Re: Masada-live
Re: Masada-live
Re: Intellectual property is theft!
Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
MM&W's "Dracula"
Re: Zorn & Boredoms jungle???
Re: Zony Mash
Re: Zony Mash
Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
Re: Zorn & Boredoms jungle???
Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
Re: Intellectual property is theft! II
Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
Re: Masada live (was:Intellectual property is theft! II_
Copyright issues
Re: Masada live (was:Intellectual property is theft! II_
Re: Masada live (was:Intellectual property is theft! II_
Zorn's "Angelus Novus" performance in Boston
Filmworks 3/Book of Heads?
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 22:07:43 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash
> Why do we need to compare players of the B-3 organ on a one-dimension
> scale (and rate them accordingly)? I have been following the thread with
> some amazement: is there already a B-3 competition at the Olympic Games?
>
> I have been listening to Wayne for more than ten years and consider myself
> as fairly well acquainted with his style. What he does with Zony Mash
> fits perfectly well with what he has done previously with the B-3, and
> the songs are definitely his (with few exceptions). Hence my surprise to
> see him being implicitely presented as a poor imitator of MM&W.
I thought this died a little while back but I'm glad to keep it going.
First of all, I'd like to say that the Zony Mash CD rules. It has grown
on me tremendously. I have found and become familiar with more of
Horvitz's material which has helped this happen. I can't help but
compare him to Medeski though. As much as I don't want to I do.
Anyway, here's a mathematical way to prove that test tubes are the same
as dildoes.
Horvitz=great
Medeski=great
Therefore by substitution: Horvitz=Medeski
If: Medeski/Horvitz=dildoes/test tubes
Then by substitution: Medeski/Medeski=dildoes/test tubes
1=dildoes/test tubes
test tubes=dildoes
it's that easy!
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:03:27 +0200
From: Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
Subject: Masada-live
Yesterday, there was a John Zorn/Masada special at the
Belgium radio. They mentioned that there would be an official
Masada Live -box before the end of this year.
This box should consist of 5 CD's including last year's Antwerp concert,
a Moscow concert and some other concerts (also the Jerusalem concert if
I remember well).
Does anybody know more about this box (especially the label it will
be on) ?
-Yves Dewulf-
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:11:02 -0400
From: Les@voyager.umeres.maine.edu (Les Rhoda)
Subject: The "T" word
zorn-list@xmission.com,.Internet writes:
>ummm, excuse me? There is no such policy on this
> mailing list. Let me repeat, there is NO RULE
> prohibiting tape trading discussions on the
> zorn-list.
That's good to hear. I have often wondered about the whole Zorn-taping
thing. I know Zorn cares very, very much about the money side of
things, but how can all of us Zorn fanatics keep up with his 1,000 mph
agenda when he's doing something different every week? What about
people who hear about Naked City but then go out spend 20 bucks on
Absinthe, expecting to hear "that nifty thrashjazz"? What about the
people who don't live in NYC? I collect every live Zorn tape I can get
my hands on, but only because :
1) I feel he is the most important composer of our culture/generation
2) I want to know what he's up to, but don't feel like spending 20
bucks on a disc of him banging on pots and pans while somebody screams
3) He's a major influence on what I want to do with music
I wonder if Zorn tapes any of his shows, or does he just let the music
happen, pick up his check, and let it be? It seems to me that he would
have a much greater sense of self-worth than that. I'm not lending
validity to everything he does, nor am I saying that taping is right,
but I know that I am not alone in the quest to keep up with Mr. Zorn.
Besides, in this day of electronic capturing devices, should we let his
live work go undocumented? Was Dean Bendetti wrong for following
Charlie Parker and taping him because he thought Bird was a demi-god
and icon?
I wish I had lots of obscure music to talk about, but I don't, so sorry
for breaking with the format. I do enjoy reading about it here on the
list though. I'd better go now, because the Zorn-list SWAT team is
rappelling down the side of my house....
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:28:32 -0500
From: "Glenn Astarita" <gastarit@comm.net>
Subject: Re: Greg Cohen (Was: "Waits related Ribot")
- ----------
> From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
> To: zorn-list@xmission.com
> Subject: Greg Cohen (Was: "Waits related Ribot")
> Date: Monday, April 07, 1997 8:11 PM
>
> > Greg Cohen plays bass on one or two of the "Rain Dogs" tracks,
> > John Lurie plays sax on one. Also, in a benefit concert Waits did a
> > year and a half ago, Greg Cohen played bass, Kenny Wollesen played...
>
> Where else can Greg Cohen be found other than Masada stuff? He's a very
> lovely and lyrical bassist with a very soft and clear tone. I'd like to
> find more.
>
> -Tom Pratt
Try Anthony Coleman's recent "Sephardic Tinge" for one. It's a classic
mainstream piano trio date which also features Joey Baron on drums. It
proves that Coleman can swing ! He also does a fine job of deconstructing a
few classics. Of course Cohen and Baron provide impeccable support..
Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:45:48 -0700
From: Nathaniel Y Downes <mitchiel@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #74
HELP!!!
Is anyone out there going to Wayne Horvitz in Santa Cruz tonight!!!
I really want to go, only I have a slight problem, I live on Campus and
Shows always end after the last bus....
Anyway, if anyone on the list gets this before tonight, and can drive a
poor carless Horvitz fan back up to campus at the end of the show, (I'd
gladly buy you a beer) call me or email me @ 471-7860 (you know the area
code) or mitchiel@cats.ucsc.edu
Thank you
PS...
Anyone in Santa Cruz or Monterey, or Watsonville, should tune in to KZSC
88.1 starting next Thursday at 3:00am to 6:00am (actually Friday early
morning) I host a free, avant garde, exploratory jazz noise show...
thanks again...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 17:28:26 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Masada-live
On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:03:27 +0200 Yves Dewulf wrote:
>
>
> Yesterday, there was a John Zorn/Masada special at the
> Belgium radio. They mentioned that there would be an official
> Masada Live -box before the end of this year.
> This box should consist of 5 CD's including last year's Antwerp concert,
> a Moscow concert and some other concerts (also the Jerusalem concert if
> I remember well).
> Does anybody know more about this box (especially the label it will
> be on) ?
Sounds like a Tzadik release. Tzadik had the plan to release (at least)
two Masada live:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** - LIVE IN JERUSALEM: Masada
???? - Tzadik (USA), ??? (CD)
Note: not released yet.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** - LIVE AT MOGADOR: Masada
???? - Tzadik (USA), ??? (CD)
Note: not released yet.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never heard of a live CD set. Could be a new idea from Tzadik.
Patrice.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 22:04:28 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Re: Masada-live
> *** - LIVE AT MOGADOR: Masada
At Mogador huh? Perhaps this is why Dave Douglas's song "Mogador" (for
John Zorn) was given that title. It's on 'Five' on Soul Note. Cool tune.
Fucking awesome album. Buy it. Zorn wrote some liner notes if that will
persuade you.
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:37:34 +1000 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Intellectual property is theft!
Well no, I'm just kidding. But Zorn objecting to the free exchange,
barter-like, of otherwise unavailable music of his on cassettes? By the
same people who are throwing all their (heaven forfend!) spare money
into the subsidy of his career? Are we talking about the same guy
who wrote an essay called "Memory and Immorality in Musical Composition"
(see the bibliography back of Patrice's discog for the reference)?
To say nothing of the music - and there is a fund of saying to be found
there.
I hope this is all bullstuff. It seems pretty freaking inconsistent,
leastways to me.
Cheers,
Jim
On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Les Rhoda wrote:
> zorn-list@xmission.com,.Internet writes:
> >ummm, excuse me? There is no such policy on this
> > mailing list. Let me repeat, there is NO RULE
> > prohibiting tape trading discussions on the
> > zorn-list.
>
> That's good to hear. I have often wondered about the whole Zorn-taping
> thing. I know Zorn cares very, very much about the money side of
> things, but how can all of us Zorn fanatics keep up with his 1,000 mph
> agenda when he's doing something different every week? What about
> people who hear about Naked City but then go out spend 20 bucks on
> Absinthe, expecting to hear "that nifty thrashjazz"? What about the
> people who don't live in NYC? I collect every live Zorn tape I can get
> my hands on, but only because :
> 1) I feel he is the most important composer of our culture/generation
> 2) I want to know what he's up to, but don't feel like spending 20
> bucks on a disc of him banging on pots and pans while somebody screams
> 3) He's a major influence on what I want to do with music
>
> I wonder if Zorn tapes any of his shows, or does he just let the music
> happen, pick up his check, and let it be? It seems to me that he would
> have a much greater sense of self-worth than that. I'm not lending
> validity to everything he does, nor am I saying that taping is right,
> but I know that I am not alone in the quest to keep up with Mr. Zorn.
>
> Besides, in this day of electronic capturing devices, should we let his
> live work go undocumented? Was Dean Bendetti wrong for following
> Charlie Parker and taping him because he thought Bird was a demi-god
> and icon?
>
> I wish I had lots of obscure music to talk about, but I don't, so sorry
> for breaking with the format. I do enjoy reading about it here on the
> list though. I'd better go now, because the Zorn-list SWAT team is
> rappelling down the side of my house....
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:16:40 +1000 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
Yeah, I was just thinking some more about this. William Duckworth has an
interview with Zorn in his recent book, "Talking Music: Interviews with
American Composers". And it is here that Zorn 'fesses up, and explains
that he built up his huge record collection by stealing thousands of the
fuckers out of shops!
So! I find all this preciousness about copyright - especially where it
doesn't infringe on Zorn's income - totally spurious. Some fuckwit has
been proliferating bullstuff.
Cheers,
Jim
On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Les Rhoda wrote:
> zorn-list@xmission.com,.Internet writes:
> >ummm, excuse me? There is no such policy on this
> > mailing list. Let me repeat, there is NO RULE
> > prohibiting tape trading discussions on the
> > zorn-list.
>
> That's good to hear. I have often wondered about the whole Zorn-taping
> thing. I know Zorn cares very, very much about the money side of
> things, but how can all of us Zorn fanatics keep up with his 1,000 mph
> agenda when he's doing something different every week? What about
> people who hear about Naked City but then go out spend 20 bucks on
> Absinthe, expecting to hear "that nifty thrashjazz"? What about the
> people who don't live in NYC? I collect every live Zorn tape I can get
> my hands on, but only because :
> 1) I feel he is the most important composer of our culture/generation
> 2) I want to know what he's up to, but don't feel like spending 20
> bucks on a disc of him banging on pots and pans while somebody screams
> 3) He's a major influence on what I want to do with music
>
> I wonder if Zorn tapes any of his shows, or does he just let the music
> happen, pick up his check, and let it be? It seems to me that he would
> have a much greater sense of self-worth than that. I'm not lending
> validity to everything he does, nor am I saying that taping is right,
> but I know that I am not alone in the quest to keep up with Mr. Zorn.
>
> Besides, in this day of electronic capturing devices, should we let his
> live work go undocumented? Was Dean Bendetti wrong for following
> Charlie Parker and taping him because he thought Bird was a demi-god
> and icon?
>
> I wish I had lots of obscure music to talk about, but I don't, so sorry
> for breaking with the format. I do enjoy reading about it here on the
> list though. I'd better go now, because the Zorn-list SWAT team is
> rappelling down the side of my house....
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 09:48:00 PDT
From: Matt Walsh <MATTW@smginc.com>
Subject: MM&W's "Dracula"
Zorn doesn't play on the regular version of Medeski, Martin, & Wood's
"Dracula". The song is on their album "Shack Man". A friend of mine is a
big MM&W fan and has the CD.
Hope this helps.
Matt Walsh
mattw@smginc.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:20:50 +0100 (BST)
From: "Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC)" <amg@cs.stir.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Zorn & Boredoms jungle???
Hi Zorn-people.
Well, i happen to s*bscr*be to the breaks discussion group as well as this
one, and today i saw the very surprising message:
>has anyone heard any of the drum and bass\jungle stuff that the boredoms
>and John Zorn have been working on?
> Lazy
What i want to know is, is this question based on reality?
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 03:50:58 -0700
From: "James L. Kirchmer" <jamesk@jamesk.seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash
Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:30:58 -0700 (PDT) m. rizzi wrote:
> > I saw them live at the OK Hotel opening for
> > David Thomas and found them to be pretty
> > boring. Of course, I have no comment on
> > the "forward looking" thang...just didn't
> > float my boat.
> I saw them Sunday night and they were great.
> To go back with the comparison with MM&W:
> Why do we need to compare players of the B-3 organ on a one-dimension
> scale (and rate them accordingly)? I have been following the thread with
> some amazement: is there already a B-3 competition at the Olympic Games?
> I have been listening to Wayne for more than ten years and consider myself
> as fairly well acquainted with his style. What he does with Zony Mash
> fits perfectly well with what he has done previously with the B-3, and
> the songs are definitely his (with few exceptions). Hence my surprise to
> see him being implicitely presented as a poor imitator of MM&W.
Very well put, Patrice....Wayne recently described his primary
influence on the organ as coming from Garth Hudson(The BAND)...
(as opposed to the Jimmy Smith/etc. '50's/'60's jazz/funk school
of organ playin' that John Medeski has primarily "taken off" from)
And btw, all Wayne plays w/Zony is the B3. There is no Clavinet
or Wurlitzer like with John Medeski in MMW. Only organ, like at
church. Anyways, like I said before: (this sums it up well)--->
> > >Moreover, comparing Medeski to Wayne is like comparing "dildoes" to
> > >test tubes. ;)
<ed. note: a test tube in Owsley's old lab, perhaps?... ;>
I saw Zony Mash here in Seattle on Saturday April 5th, as they
HEADLINED a show. This is Zony Mash's comfort zone, as they can
loosen up and stretch out their redrubberband, so to speak.(?)
The tunes demand this kind of setting...where the "gospel" of
Zony Mash has time to simmer and boil over in waves of emotion -
with Wayne off his seat and hunched over the organ as the
audience is transported back to the feel good "church" vibe of
the late '60's filtered through the time travel/microscope
machine that Zony Mash carries in their deep musical pockets.
The show I mention above was indeed a killer one - a very nice
'tour opener', as they were sent off by a sizable and very
appreciative audience that clapped 'em back out for an encore.
The tourdates are available via http://www.knittingfactory.com
and I highly recommend that y'all out there check 'em out if
ya can. Tim Young, the guitarist, is a young guy - and it
shows sometimes in his playin', but he has got some SERIOUS
chops. His debut album is coming out in May on Endless Records.
(Endless Records, 4714 Ballard Ave. N.W., Suite 212,
Seattle, WA - 98107 - (206)721-3885)
Tim appears on the Eyvind Kang "7 Nades" record that many of
you have enjoyed, btw. He also plays with the Scallywags(feat.
Mike Stone(d) from Wayne Horvitz's PIGPEN), as well as
Devilhead, which is featuring Ben Shepard(sp?)from the JUST
BROKEN UP Soundgarden(a friendly breakup, I hear) while Tim
is away touring with Zony Mash (Zony Mash hits Europe in May)
Mike Stone also plays with Devilhead. Look for Mike on tour
with Tuatara soon, featuring Skerik(ts), & Peter Buck f/REM...
Anyways, to continue on with Zony Mash personnel(in response
to an inquiry as to WHO is in the band...) ----->
Fred Chalenor, the bass player in Zony Mash, is WICKED - a real
pro....he used to play in the Tonedogs, feat. Amy Denio and
Matt Cameron(ex-Soundgarden drummer, btw), as well as
Caveman Shoestore. Another project is HUGHSCORE, also feat. the
BIGTIME bass talents of Hugh Hopper(ex-Soft Machine), as well as
the keyoards of Fred's wife Elaine. It's an exciting band,
esp. because of the compositions. They have an album in the
can awaiting release soon which is supposedly a big step up
f/the first one they did. Fred also has recorded with Elliot
Sharp - on the excellent(!)"BOODLERS" cd. (Acid Jazz Payback!)
And, lest we not forget, Fred is also in Horvitz's PIGPEN.
Andy Roth, the drummer in Zony Mash, is a major force in the
band - as his drum backing/breaks are very surehanded and
tasteful. His drum solos/breaks walk that fine line between
musicality and power. His jazz chops are put to good use as
he retains the timing of a jazz drummer while not suppressing
the FUNK. He's a SMART funk/jazz drummer in this respect....
& has played alot w/Wayne's acoustic projects(esp. his trio)
Well, now that you know more(too much?) about Zony Mash & the
participants within(I believe there was a question about who
was in the band in the past digest), I do encourage you to
take a deep breath, loosen the collar, and kick back at one
of their upcoming shows.(I've been seeing Zony Mash since
their first show in November of '95 - and Wayne since 1992,
and I listen to everything from Al Anderson to Yamatsuka Eye,
and everything in between, including other dimensions - like
those space-based ones of the Sun Ra Arkestra, those mojo
joints of RL Burnside, and those demented netherworlds of
the Sun City Girls.) ---> Which leads me to a topic for
discussion: Any reports of the live shows the RUINS have
played recently here in the states? What's up with this
band? Any big differences between the old/new lineup?
(If I recall correctly there was a change?)
later, James Kirchmer
p.s. - this WEEN/Boredoms members thing called Z-Rock
Hawaii also sounds interesting. Bring on the reviews!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:43:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter Cline <pmc7288@is.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash
> discussion: Any reports of the live shows the RUINS have
> played recently here in the states? What's up with this
> band? Any big differences between the old/new lineup?
> (If I recall correctly there was a change?)
>
> later, James Kirchmer
>
> p.s. - this WEEN/Boredoms members thing called Z-Rock
> Hawaii also sounds interesting. Bring on the reviews!
>
>
The Ruins played a show in New York just over a month ago, two shows
actually. The first was at the cooler, and the second at the Knitting
Factory where they also played with Zorn and Arto Lindsay. Saw the second
show and it was great. This was my first exposure to the Ruins, so I
can't make any comparision to things of the past.
As for Z-Rock Hawaii, until last weekend when I played a live show and got
a recording out of it, this was about the only disc I was listening to for
a good week or two. It is quite excellent, especially the song called
"the Meadow"
- -Peter Cline
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:50:17 +0000
From: "Mason Wendell" <prelapse@pop3.tiac.net>
Subject: Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
On 4/10 James Douglas Knox wrote:
> Yeah, I was just thinking some more about this. William Duckworth has an
> interview with Zorn in his recent book, "Talking Music: Interviews with
> American Composers". And it is here that Zorn 'fesses up, and explains
> that he built up his huge record collection by stealing thousands of the
> fuckers out of shops!
>
> So! I find all this preciousness about copyright - especially where it
> doesn't infringe on Zorn's income - totally spurious. Some fuckwit has
> been proliferating bullstuff.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jim
I was one of those who privatly advised Tom that tape trading on the
zorn-list has been a sensitive issue in the past, and that probably
still would be if we brought it back up. I only wanted to warn him
of what he might be getting into. I was definitely not attempting to
censor the list.
However, I also want to express my own opinion on the importance of a
musician's copyright.
Legally, a copyright protects someone's
intellectual property, i.e. music, art, poetry, etc, etc, etc. When
someone sets out to make his/her income from creative endeavors, then
that copyright is also the only insurance their is that they can get
paid for their efforts. Record companies, publishing companies,
agents, managers, promoters, lawyers, and all the rest of 'em that
surround an artist each take a major cut of any money that comes
around, which usually leaves the artist with less than 10% of the
payola. That's the business.
My point is that an artist really has to keep as much control as
possible over the money that should be coming to him/her. Some
artists like for fans to tape shows and trade them because of the
word of mouth publicity. Others prefer to hold on to control over all
of their recordings and release them in a form that matches their
standards of quality and style. Zorn follows the latter method. He
also releases more records per year than nearly any other artist
alive. And as for quality standards, I think that all of them have
exquisite, deliberate production values; and that shit don't come
cheap. You only have to listen to the bootleg live Masada CD hear
that the alternative is a poor substitute.
But hey, do what ya want.
later
Mason
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:48:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Mason Wendell wrote:
> Legally, a copyright protects someone's
> intellectual property, i.e. music, art, poetry, etc, etc, etc. When
there is nothing illegal about trading
recordings amongst individuals. rather,
the copyright law applies to recordings
sold without fair compensation to the
artist who created the work in question.
> word of mouth publicity. Others prefer to hold on to control over all
> of their recordings and release them in a form that matches their
> standards of quality and style. Zorn follows the latter method.
what about the live Masada CD released
by Jazz Door, a known bootleg company?
my understanding is that Zorn gave
permission for the disc to be sold.
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:24:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Anthony 'Twizzler' Saunders" <ajs4283@megahertz.njit.edu>
Subject: Re: Zorn & Boredoms jungle???
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC) wrote:
> Hi Zorn-people.
> Well, i happen to s*bscr*be to the breaks discussion group as well as this
> one, and today i saw the very surprising message:
> >has anyone heard any of the drum and bass\jungle stuff that the boredoms
> >and John Zorn have been working on?
> What i want to know is, is this question based on reality?
I dunno, but i'd crap me shorts if it is...
anthony
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:53:38 -0500
From: jonathan kaye <jk@interactive.net>
Subject: Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
on thu, 10 apr 1997 james douglas knox wrote:
>Yeah, I was just thinking some more about this. William Duckworth has an
>interview with Zorn in his recent book, "Talking Music: Interviews with
>American Composers". And it is here that Zorn 'fesses up, and explains
>that he built up his huge record collection by stealing thousands of the
>fuckers out of shops!
>
>So! I find all this preciousness about copyright - especially where it
>doesn't infringe on Zorn's income - totally spurious. Some fuckwit has
>been proliferating bullstuff.
>
>Cheers,
>
okay, now that that's settled, who's got a tape that they're willing to
seed a tape tree with?
jon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:52:06 +0000
From: "Mason Wendell" <prelapse@pop3.tiac.net>
Subject: Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
on 4/10/97, SUGAR in their vitamins? said:
> there is nothing illegal about trading
> recordings amongst individuals. rather,
> the copyright law applies to recordings
> sold without fair compensation to the
> artist who created the work in question.
No, it's not illegal to trade recordings that are made legally or with
permission. However, it's not cool to bootleg. (meanig to conceal a
recorder inside your boot because you can be expelled from the venue
or arrested if you are caught taping.) Many artists and clubs make a
point of announcing that recording is not allowed, and that has been
the case at all of the Zorn shows I've been to. In general, I think
it's wise to get permission before taping.
> what about the live Masada CD released
> by Jazz Door, a known bootleg company?
> my understanding is that Zorn gave
> permission for the disc to be sold.
>
I'm pretty sure that that CD is unauthorized. I don't know the word
straight from Zorn, but logic tells me that since he's waited so long
to release a live CD for himself, that he would want Jazz Door to do
it first, or that he would give up the control, money, and
distribution, that releasing it on his own would give him. Also, I
doubt that he would approve of the liner notes or the photo that Jazz
Door used. Definitely not up to Zorn's quality standards.
Mason
******************************************
* Mason Wendell *
* Prelapse- New Music for Loud Ensemble *
* Specializing in the unrecorded music *
* of John Zorn's Naked City *
* Sigmoid Flexure- Loud Free Improv *
* Blinder- rock band *
******************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:55:11 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Intellectual property is theft! II
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:48:30 -0700 (PDT) SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Mason Wendell wrote:
>
> > Legally, a copyright protects someone's
> > intellectual property, i.e. music, art, poetry, etc, etc, etc. When
>
> there is nothing illegal about trading
> recordings amongst individuals. rather,
> the copyright law applies to recordings
> sold without fair compensation to the
> artist who created the work in question.
>
> > word of mouth publicity. Others prefer to hold on to control over all
> > of their recordings and release them in a form that matches their
> > standards of quality and style. Zorn follows the latter method.
>
> what about the live Masada CD released
> by Jazz Door, a known bootleg company?
> my understanding is that Zorn gave
> permission for the disc to be sold.
I am also very suspicious about that. If I remember well, Zorn threated
Bob Rusch (Cadence/North Country) if he kept on distributing that record
(I don't know with what since North Country barely carry Avant anymore,
and does not carry Tzadik...).
Patrice.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:42:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Mason Wendell wrote:
> He
> also releases more records per year than nearly any other artist
> alive. And as for quality standards, I think that all of them have
> exquisite, deliberate production values; and that shit don't come
> cheap. You only have to listen to the bootleg live Masada CD hear
> that the alternative is a poor substitute.
Actually, I prefer the production on the Jazz Door bootleg to the
production on the DIWs. On the latter, Baron's drum sound is too
compressed for my taste. (At least, I think that's the problem. I'm a
dumbass when it comes to recording tech.) The packaging, certainly, is
pretty flimsy. That's not to defend Jazz Door's practices. Zorn
certainly should be allowed to keep others from profiting off his work
without his permission. Of course, bootlegging and tape trading are two
different things...
Chris Hamilton
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:48:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re:Intellectual property is theft! II
On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Mason Wendell wrote:
> No, it's not illegal to trade recordings that are made legally or with
> permission. However, it's not cool to bootleg. (meanig to conceal a
> recorder inside your boot because you can be expelled from the venue
> or arrested if you are caught taping.) Many artists and clubs make a
> point of announcing that recording is not allowed, and that has been
> the case at all of the Zorn shows I've been to. In general, I think
> it's wise to get permission before taping.
I've only seen Zorn twice, but no announcement was made at either gig.
Not that that implies permission. There have been stories recounted on
this list of Zorn sometimes giving permission to tape to selected audience
members. If that's true, then there are presumably at least a few legit
tapes floating around.
Chris Hamilton
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:20:28 -0700
From: stickman <stickman@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: Masada live (was:Intellectual property is theft! II_
Mason Wendell wrote:
>
>
> My point is that an artist really has to keep as much control as
> possible over the money that should be coming to him/her. Some
> artists like for fans to tape shows and trade them because of the
> word of mouth publicity. Others prefer to hold on to control over all
> of their recordings and release them in a form that matches their
> standards of quality and style. Zorn follows the latter method. He
> also releases more records per year than nearly any other artist
> alive. And as for quality standards, I think that all of them have
> exquisite, deliberate production values; and that shit don't come
> cheap. You only have to listen to the bootleg live Masada CD hear
> that the alternative is a poor substitute.
Well, of course subjectivity rules, right...but I think I actually like
the Jazz Door Masada live CD than any of Zorn's Masada releases. Mainly
because the Bass is mixed up much higher in the mix, and also they play
some of the songs a little faster. I would like to know soundwise, what
you think makes it substandard. Zorn would do well to release this whole
show.
The only Things I feel make this CD inferior:
1)poor editing between songs
2)The Booklet is Lame & inaccurate(in fact, i believe Patrice mentioned
this show was from Germany, while the booklet states New York)
Also, in regards to your above comments on Bootlegs, How many Zorn fans
would rather tape his show than go out and buy his CD's? I really don't
think Zorn is losing any money on the CD's he actually puts out due to
bootlegging. If he wants to make even more money off us, he should
release even more. I would buy anything with him on it anyway. If the
Knit. sold a CD of every time he plays there, I would buy it.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:03:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wlt4@aol.com
Subject: Copyright issues
It seems to be a common misconception that if you're not making money from a
tape then it's not a copyright violation. If you've taped a concert or a
piece of music (song, album, whatever) without permission of the copyright
holder then that is a violation of copyright. The only time the money issue
matters is in a lawsuit: one of the key factors in determining copyright
violation is whether the original copyright has been affected. Even if the
intent was to "help" the musicians, if there was no permission then making,
trading or selling (though oddly enough, not just owning) the tape is
illegal. Though this was pretty clear application of copyright law to
recording concerts, there was a recent attempt to revise the copyright
statutes so that it explicitly covered unauthorized recording. I believe
this was passed but i'm not completely certain.
Of course, the morality of taping is a completely separate issue. I have
enough bootlegs to be marked a convinced sinner, and if none of them are by
Zorn that's only because i've never had the chance to get one. Maybe it's
time to start a trader's list for non-mainstream music: any Henry Cow boots
out there?
Lang Thompson
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Masada live (was:Intellectual property is theft! II_
On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, stickman wrote:
> I would buy anything with him on it anyway. If the
> Knit. sold a CD of every time he plays there, I would buy it.
Y'know, I'll plead guilty to being a Zorn completist myself, but this
would probably be enough to cure me. Actually, the 100-CD Zorn/Eye set
may be enough to cure me, but we'll see...
Chris Hamilton
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:56:20 +0000
From: "Mason Wendell" <prelapse@pop3.tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Masada live (was:Intellectual property is theft! II_
On 4/11 stickman wrote:
> Well, of course subjectivity rules, right...but I think I actually like
> the Jazz Door Masada live CD than any of Zorn's Masada releases. Mainly
> because the Bass is mixed up much higher in the mix, and also they play
> some of the songs a little faster. I would like to know soundwise, what
> you think makes it substandard. Zorn would do well to release this whole
> show.
>
> The only Things I feel make this CD inferior:
>
> 1)poor editing between songs
This is definitely annoying.
> 2)The Booklet is Lame & inaccurate(in fact, i believe Patrice mentioned
> this show was from Germany, while the booklet states New York)
I agree here too. Also, it sounds like even though it may have been
recorded with a fine microphone to DAT, that that's all that was
done. To my ears, it sounds like only one mic ws used, or perhaps two
were used insufficiently. At any rate, there is no stereo depth of
field. The band sounds like they're just far away, as opopsed to
hearing all the reverberation from the walls around and behind you.
Zorn is really hip to this shit and would probably avoid such a dry
sounding album. I think it will be interesting to see if he places
the mics from an audience member's perspective or if they will be
one/around the stage on the official live CDs
>
> Also, in regards to your above comments on Bootlegs, How many Zorn fans
> would rather tape his show than go out and buy his CD's? I really don't
> think Zorn is losing any money on the CD's he actually puts out due to
> bootlegging. If he wants to make even more money off us, he should
> release even more. I would buy anything with him on it anyway. If the
> Knit. sold a CD of every time he plays there, I would buy it.
>
I don't think my point was to portray it as an either/or situation.
It's just that many artists (and it seems as if Zorn should
be included here) want to controle the quality of the
music/recordings that end up floating around. But realisticly, tape
trading does diminish the impact of official releases. Perhaps not
among die-hard fanatics/compleatists/whatever, but definitly among
people who are just curious or only want to hear the tune and are not
so interested in the subtlties between performances.
later
Mason
******************************************
* Mason Wendell *
* Prelapse- New Music for Loud Ensemble *
* Specializing in the unrecorded music *
* of John Zorn's Naked City *
* Sigmoid Flexure- Loud Free Improv *
* Blinder- rock band *
******************************************
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:24:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: NEC_DRURY@FLO.ORG
Subject: Zorn's "Angelus Novus" performance in Boston
From: SMTP%"stevedrury@mindspring.com" 11-APR-1997 22:14:51.68
To: NEC_DRURY
CC:
Subj: Re: Zorn's "Angelus Novus" performance in boston
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970412021112.0067d010@pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: stevedrury@pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:11:12 -0400
To: nec_drury@flo.org
From: stephen drury <stevedrury@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn's "Angelus Novus" performance in boston
Zorn's "Angelus Novus" for orchestral winds will be performed in concert at
>>New England Conservatory's Jordan Hall on Tuesday, April 15 by the
>>Callithumpian Consort. Five movements, 12 minutes, eight players.
>>Dedicated to the memory of Walter Benjamin. 290 Huntinton Ave, Boston, MA.
>>8pm. Free.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:58:33 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Filmworks 3/Book of Heads?
Hey guys!
I recently picked up Filmworks 3 and find it to be very interesting at
points and very shitty at others. I really like the first bit by the
Thieves Quartet (later turns into Masada) and that thing for the cartoon
(only because it fits the little pictures of the elephant so well!). I
like a lot of the Zorn/Ribot duets (especially opening and closing
themes) The last thing is pretty cool too. I'm not too keen on the pure
noise "BEWLIFGQLEWCIBSAHVCBSA:IVBVUDVEW!!!" stuff but much of that is
very neat. I couldn't believe there were 56 songs! unbelievable. I'm
looking at "The Music of Ennio Morricone" and "News For Lulu" (?) to be
my next Zorn albums to pick up. Any thoughts on these? I'm slowly
getting more and more zorn.
Also, could someone describe 'Book of Heads' for me. Is it solo guitar
(Marc Ribot) or what? I'd be interested in hearing it.
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
End of zorn-list Digest V2 #75
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