> I don't know why anyone would get all that excited about this Zony Mash
> disc. It's not particularly forward looking and succeeds fairly well but
> not spectacularly musically. I know Horvitz is popular but I don't see
> much of a reason for folks to rush out and buy this disc. Just to add a
> voice of dissent to the surge of agreement.
>
> -Nils
This is not ment to insult you but could you give more specifics on
why you do not like this album. I just generally live by the rule
that if I don't have specific criticism for an album that I dislike,
I'll just keep my mouth shut because sometimes things won't work for
me now but may later. I'm asking for your specific opinion because
the postings have sparked my interest in purchasing this album but
would like to get your side of it.
------------------------------
From: "Glenn Astarita" <gastarit@comm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:06:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Zony Mash
- ----------
> From: Nils Jacobson
> Subject: Re: Zony Mash
> Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 11:16 AM
>
> I don't know why anyone would get all that excited about this Zony Mash
> disc. It's not particularly forward looking and succeeds fairly well but
> not spectacularly musically. I know Horvitz is popular but I don't see
> much of a reason for folks to rush out and buy this disc. Just to add a
> voice of dissent to the surge of agreement.
>
> -Nils
>
>
> I disagree...personally, i'd say its one of the more "happening" things
of late ! It's toe-tappin, exhilarating and combines all the elements of
Horvitz' unique insight and uncanny approach ! This stuff would most
obviously appeal to a wider audience. granted ! However, take the rock
elements combined with the twist and turns, great but thoughtful soloing
and stop on a dime tempos ! A definite First Class effort. The
compositions really add a wonderful element to this disk. No filler
material here ! (IMO, of course)...
glenn
------------------------------
From: Bob Boster <boster@mills.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:59:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Otomo (was Burroughs)
Not sure if I should really wade into this, but since I actually make
music this way I guess I have at least a certain position that bears
mentioning. I perform with CD players and electronics extensively, both
in a solo DJ-like capacity as well as in improvisational gropu settings.
On the question of "chance", someone said:
>
> > It seems to me that Otomo is more
> >'Burroughsian' than these in that his collages are live and improvised
> >as opposed to constructed. He really allows for chance to bring
> >together disparate elements.
This is true of Otomo's work from our perspective as well as his. The
improvisation is "apparent" in the work, and for him, works to great
effect. He does something I often try to do, which is "compose" through a
given set of possible source material and possible things to do with it
(the finite parameters of what the machines in question can do) and then
"improvise" the outcome of any given performance.
Someone points this out clearly:
> 1. As you say, he must select records and choose which ones he plays in
> advance , but also, maybe he knows which sections will work within a
> given context from experience.
Expereince is a key idea. Like any other instrument, as you learn about
how your "rig" works many self-evident and self-limiting aspects of what
the equipment can do becomes clear. These things structure the outcome
implicitly, and explains why many people are constantly changing or
developing their equipment sets to help keep from "settling" into a
pattern.
>
> Personally, I want to understand how he achieves this.
>
> Who else is tackling the problem of meaning and context using the
> sample?
I know I am in my work. I think clearly there are a number of other
performers/composers who touch down in this territory as well (John
Oswald, Negativland, Bob Ostertag, and some of the illbient folks). In
terms of reading on the subject, the first place to look for "theory" is
the Negativland book.
>
> What do others think about random vs. composed sample-based music?
>
I can't help but think that there's no such thing as random. I mean,
even if I set up all my stuff and then "randomly" sift through a pile of
source material in a given performance, the outcome makes surprising kinds
of sense. Even a piece I did for a group of people blindly mixing
material I randomly played in 8 CD players ended up making a lot of sense.
Juxtaposition works that way, to large extent. And the linearity of
sounds lead us down certain cognitive pathes as well. Even played
backwards samples make some kinds of linear sense because that's how we
hear often, the sound moving forward through time with us.
Bob Boster (aka Mr. Meridies)
boster@mills.edu
friction@pobox.com
------------------------------
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:32:59 -0500
Subject: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
I think that this album is decent. I do like it although some of the
music (compositions) aren't very interesting and they don't seem to have
a lot of energy for the sound they're going for. Wayne Horvitz's organ
playing also just seems primitive and a little bit lame too because the
one of the only B-3 players I've been listening to in the past 2 years
is John Medeski (who I hear A LOT of) so I was disappointed to hear
somebody playing it that just didn't have the flavor of Medeski.
Medeski just makes Horvitz sound lame to me. Anyway, it IS a fun album
and has some groove merit but I really don't understand the Zony Mash
craze that some people seem to have gotten into.
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
From: "Glenn Astarita" <gastarit@comm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:36:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
- ----------
> From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
> To: zorn-list@xmission.com
> Subject: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
> Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 3:32 PM
>
> I think that this album is decent. I do like it although some of the
> music (compositions) aren't very interesting and they don't seem to have
> a lot of energy for the sound they're going for. Wayne Horvitz's organ
> playing also just seems primitive and a little bit lame too because the
> one of the only B-3 players I've been listening to in the past 2 years
> is John Medeski (who I hear A LOT of) so I was disappointed to hear
> somebody playing it that just didn't have the flavor of Medeski.
> Medeski just makes Horvitz sound lame to me. Anyway, it IS a fun album
> and has some groove merit but I really don't understand the Zony Mash
> craze that some people seem to have gotten into.
A B-3, is well....a... B-3 ! I really don't see much of a difference in
the "sound" dept. Could you actually pass a blindfold test of organ riffs
alternating between Medeski and Horvitz ? Primitive and lame ? What does
lame mean in this context ? BTW, the Zony Mash cd (IMO) is far more
interesting than the latest MM&W effort. Seems like MM&W have reached a
pinnacle of creativity and need to diversify. I'd say they've stagnated !
Has John Medeski (whom i
like very much btw..) set the new standard by which to compare ? For that
matter what do you think of Jimmy Smith or John Patton ? to name but a few
...
glenn
>
>
------------------------------
From: "kevin cornish" <kcornish@netcomuk.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:05:51 -0000
Subject: Masada European dates
is it rumour or are /is masada playing in europe ?
can anyone give any details to masada european dates ?
in particular are they playing in uk ?
if not why not ?
kevin kcornish@netcomuk.co.uk
------------------------------
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:57:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
> A B-3, is well....a... B-3 ! I really don't see much of a difference > in the "sound" dept.
John Medeski sounds completely different tone wise than any other B-3
player I've ever heard. He tweeks with the sounds so much more than any
one else, and his style is so definitive.
> Could you actually pass a blindfold test of organ riffs
> alternating between Medeski and Horvitz ?
Absolutely.
> Primitive and lame ? What does
> lame mean in this context ?
I mean it's more funny sounding than cool sounding.
> BTW, the Zony Mash cd (IMO) is far more
> interesting than the latest MM&W effort. Seems like MM&W have reached > a pinnacle of creativity and need to diversify. I'd say they've > stagnated !
I agree that 'Shack-Man' isn't as good as the rest of 'em but it jams
harder than Zony Mash especially live. those songs off the new album I
think are decent on the CD but live they are awesome! I don't know
about them having stagnated, I think this is where they want to go and I
think you'll find the next CD to be very different from 'Shack-Man'.
> Has John Medeski (whom i
> like very much btw..) set the new standard by which to compare?
I think definitely he has. His unique approach to keyboards and effects
backed up by unbelievable chops makes him a completely new and one of if
not the most important keyboardists around. He plays the B-3 like no
one else ever has and does and his explorations into other keyboards
make you say "wait are there TWO guitars in this band?" Not to mention
his u\amazing piano playing. listen to 'Notes From The Underground' or
the Andre Jaume/John Medeski duets album 'Team Games' or Dougie Bowne's
'One Way Elevator' to get a flavor of this.
For that
> matter what do you think of Jimmy Smith or John Patton ? to name but a few
> ...
I think they're great especially Richard "Groove" Holmes. He busts it up
soulwise but on the creatively groundbreaking side, they're lacking, but
I don't think they were ever trying to do this. They were playing what
they loved, felt and moved them and their audience.
I don't think Zony Mash is a bad album by any respects. I just don't
particularly like Horvitz's Hammond playing that much. I think the
album is fun and sometimes funny and it will remain in my CD collection
and be played sort of often. I don't think that it's spectacular.
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
From: Justin Morrison <justinm@pathcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:02:23 -0800
Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
James L. Kirchmer wrote:
> just droppin' a note to say that Zony Mash's debut album,
> titled "Cold Spell", is out and it's HOT!
. . .
> time, as the original compositions presented by Wayne on this Zony Mash
> debut have just the right hint of a late '60's funk/blues/improv
> influence.
> Wayne gives the funk a bit of a scientific treatment as well.
> I suppose "avant-funk improv" might be a good label, but I hate labels.
Not that this is that important or anything, but does the funk/blues
influence sound like it could have come from the Meters? They had songs
called "Zony Mash" and "Dry Spell". Just wondering if this was a
reference. . .
- --Justin, Toronto
------------------------------
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:58:54 -0500
Subject: misc.
Justin Morrison wrote:
>
> James L. Kirchmer wrote:
>
> > just droppin' a note to say that Zony Mash's debut album,
> > titled "Cold Spell", is out and it's HOT!
> . . .
> > time, as the original compositions presented by Wayne on this Zony Mash
> > debut have just the right hint of a late '60's funk/blues/improv
> > influence.
> > Wayne gives the funk a bit of a scientific treatment as well.
> > I suppose "avant-funk improv" might be a good label, but I hate labels.
>
> Not that this is that important or anything, but does the funk/blues
> influence sound like it could have come from the Meters? They had songs
> called "Zony Mash" and "Dry Spell". Just wondering if this was a
> reference. . .
>
> --Justin, Toronto
Yup. The Meters influence is definitely there. Zony Mash was indeed
taken from a Meters song.
By the way, does anyone know if John Zorn himself reads any of this
stuff or if he even has an e-mail address?
Also, I was talking to Erik Friedlander and he says that Zorn is
planning on recording some more Masada stuff this year. Erik says that
it's hard to say what the whole concept is going to be but that it will
involve a string trio. Maybe even a string trio record with Mark
Feldman, Erik Friedlander and Greg Cohen. This trio will be touring
Europe in November and maybe the states next year some time. Just some
info as vague as it may be.
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:17:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
James L. Kirchmer wrote:
>Not that this is that important or anything, but does the funk/blues
>influence sound like it could have come from the Meters? They had songs
>called "Zony Mash" and "Dry Spell". Just wondering if this was a
>reference. . .
Right on the money.
Steve
ssmith@knittingfactory.com
------------------------------
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:56:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: groundbreaking organists
On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Tom Pratt wrote:
> For that
> > matter what do you think of Jimmy Smith or John Patton ? to name but a few
> > ...
>
> I think they're great especially Richard "Groove" Holmes. He busts it up
> soulwise but on the creatively groundbreaking side, they're lacking, but
> I don't think they were ever trying to do this. They were playing what
> they loved, felt and moved them and their audience.
Um, wasn't Smith the first person to develop a jazz style on electric
organ? How could this not be creatively groundbreaking?
Chris Hamilton
------------------------------
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:06:38 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Re: Burroughs
Hi,
Burroughs book actually took its title from an old SF novel by Allan E
Nourse (I think), maybe from the 40s: a borrowing Burroughs acknowledged.
Dunno why the studio used the title for Scott's film of Dick's novel, but
Burroughs gets a thanks for the use of it at the end of the closing
credits...
Cheers
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
> > > I can't remember any specific references (apart from the mention of
> > > Blade Runner in the notes to Spillane) in Zorn's case but his whole
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Are you running together Burroughs and Philip K. Dick here?
>
> if memory serves, the Dick book
> was originally titled something
> like "Do Androids Dream of
> Electric Sheep?". it was only
> after the book was turned into
> the film "Blade Runner" that the
> book title changed. i'm sure
> someone can correct me if i'm
> horribly wrong...
>
> whereas, Burroughs did write a
> screenplay book (in the '70s, i
> believe) titled "Blade Runner"
> about teenaged bisexual boys
> working as drug runners in an
> appocalyptic, post-world war III
> America.
>
> hasta.
>
> Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
>
------------------------------
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:16:23 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Re: chance vs. indeterminacy
Oh, there shouldn't be any problem linking Zorn and Cage (see way below) -
round the time Zorn was busy being born, Cage wrote instructions in his
piece 'Water Music' for the player to blow thru a clarinet mouthpiece
into a bowl of water (!). Couple years later, Cage did his amazing
'Fontana Mix' - still a solid piece of cut/up musique concrete.
Cheers...
On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Scott Russell wrote:
> Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
>
> > You have to be very careful about the difference between "chance" and
> > "indeterminacy" when talking about Cage. He (and several others, myself
> > included) considered "chance" the action of using chance methods in
> > composing the work - i.e. casting I Ching hexagrams or rolling dice.
> > "Chance" happened *before* the piece ever got handed to the musicians.
> >
> > "Indeterminacy" is a whole different ballgame. "Indeterminate" scores leave
> > certain (or all) elements of the piece up to the whim of the performer.
> > This could be within certain constraints or with no rules at all.
> >
> > With this in mind, Zorn's compositions are almost never chance, and nearly
> > always indeterminate (I think this is what you meant anyway). There is a
> > fine line too between improvisatory and indeterminate, especially in Zorn's
> > terms. For example, in Cobra, the process by which instructions and
> > flash-cards are given and requested is indeterminate; the improvisatory
> > part comes with the interpretation of those instructions. By the same
> > token, you could always call improvisation an 'indeterminate' act. So you
> > see, they're not mutually exclusive, but they're not synonyms either.
> >
> > I wouldn't make this point if Cage himself hadn't emphasized it as well.
> > And since you're making the comparison, it's worth while to examine the
> > terminology and philosophy behind it.
> >
> > I'm not sure if you can apply this to Burroughs's cut-ups or not. The
> > cut-up is usually constructed only once. It's not so much a performance as
> > it is a sculpture, so it's arguable whether or not the technique (in Cagean
> > terms) would be considered chance methods or indeterminate methods. The
> > lines between in this case grow very cloudy indeed.
> >
> > Matthew
>
> Thanks Matthew
>
> You are splitting some very fine hairs indeed! Perhaps I shouldn't
> have mentioned Cage in reference to Zorn, it seems to raise some
> hackles.My comments about Zorn's (alleged) use of chance were meant on
> a fairly general level, however I do agree with your comparison of
> Burrough's cut ups to sculpture. I wonder, if Burroughs had turned to
> music (I mean as an instrumenalist rather than a 'reader') as well as
> texts and visuals, if he would have extended his technique to
> incorporate time, which is essentially the distinction we are making
> here. Zorn, Shea, Otomo etc have more 'information' to play with;ie
> music has volume, velocity, texture, time etc where text is obviously
> fixed. I think Otomo's approach is closest to Burroughs.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Scott Russell.
>
------------------------------
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