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1997-03-16
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From: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com (zorn-list Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: zorn-list Digest V2 #70
Reply-To: zorn-list@xmission.com
Sender: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com
Errors-To: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com
Precedence:
zorn-list Digest Monday, March 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 070
In this issue:
Whoops!
Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
ATTN: S. Wilkie
Re: sampling (was Otomo (was Burroughs))
Medeski/Zorn worship, Negativland
Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
Sample-based artists
Painkiller / Grindcore
Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
Frisell/Baron on DRS II
RE: Painkiller / Grindcore
Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
Tunes
Live in China
Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
simple correction
Re: Zony Mash
Re: Fred Chalenor
Re: simple correction
Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
Lauren Newton
Sample Artists
Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:31:38 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: Whoops!
Sorry! (and belatedly so) - that shoulda been Nicolas Slonimsky...
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, James Douglas Knox wrote:
> In a coupla interviews Zorn refers to Nicholas Smolinsky's 1952 book,
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:27:24 +0100
From: Friedrich Feger <ffeger@gwdg.de>
Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
At 16:36 12.03.97 -0600, Glenn Astarita wrote:
>A B-3, is well....a... B-3 ! I really don't see much of a difference in
>the "sound" dept.
Though it doesn't match the general topic of the list, I should contradict.
The B-3 allows thousands of different registrations with extremely
divergent sounds. It is very easy to make the B-3 sound unbalanced or
boring, whereas - apart from commonly known standard settings - a good new
sound is a difficult task. Someone whose sounds I like, although rather
traditional in most cases, is Larry Goldings.
Best wishes,
Fritz Feger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:04:15 -0600
From: "Glenn Astarita" <gastarit@comm.net>
Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash
- ----------
> >
> At 16:36 12.03.97 -0600, Glenn Astarita wrote:
>
> >A B-3, is well....a... B-3 ! I really don't see much of a difference in
> >the "sound" dept.
>
> Though it doesn't match the general topic of the list, I should
contradict.
> The B-3 allows thousands of different registrations with extremely
> divergent sounds. It is very easy to make the B-3 sound unbalanced or
> boring, whereas - apart from commonly known standard settings - a good
new
> sound is a difficult task. Someone whose sounds I like, although rather
> traditional in most cases, is Larry Goldings.
>
> Best wishes,
> Fritz Feger
Yeah, i suppose...there are many sublties and intricacies involved;
basically, I think the B3 in its own right is rather "easily identifiable".
Perhaps more so than synths, digital guitar and so on... Overall, i
generally don't hear that "wide a range" of different available sound
shaping techniques....
glenn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:48:43 -0700 (MST)
From: dennis summers <denniss@ic.net>
Subject: ATTN: S. Wilkie
Sorry to post this to the group but my message to S. Wilkie was returned by
the mailer daemon, and this may be of some interest to others.
>hi - can you give me details of the nature of the beast cd you picked
>up? personnel/length etc... is it available from stores?label?cat.
>number? thanks!...
>
>
Michael Formanek "Nature of the Beast" enja ENJ-9308 2 1997. Dave
Douglas/trumpet; Steve Swell/trombone; Tim Berne/alto saxophone; Tony
Malaby/alto saxophone; Chris Speed/clarinet; Michael Formanek/bass; Jim
Black/drums. 8 tracks ~68 minutes total. Can't tell you about availability
because as I said he was selling it from the show, but if it's not out now,
I'm sure it'll be out soon.
yours --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:17:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Caleb Deupree <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: sampling (was Otomo (was Burroughs))
I too am fascinated by the sampler as an instrument, and purely from a
listener's point of view. I agree completely with the excellent list of
sampler artists mentioned so far (although I'd rate Plexure *much* higher
than GrayFolded, which still sounds too much like the Dead for me).
Negativland in my experience has been lots of voices like on radio (which
command more attention than instruments), whereas the others range from
instrumental to unrecognizable. That's not bad, I just find it harder to be
around because I find words so demanding -- it's like you're forced to try
to impose some kind of meaning on them. YMMV.
I'd like to add one more album to the recommended list. The Euro-Free-Jazz
artists Hans Koch (reeds & samplers), Martin Schutz (cello) and Fredy Studer
(percussion) have an album Hardcore Chambermusic on Intakt. Anyone who has
Chockshut (also on Intakt) or Cowws Quintet (on FMP) will feel very much at
home, a further exploration of the outer limits where jazz, electronics, and
rock come together (although Hardcore Chambermusic doesn't have Stephen
Wittwer on guitar). They are noisy, exuberant, but intricate and detailed
and with a wide dynamic range, sometimes difficult and always amazing. On
Hardcore Chambermusic they credit all of the sample origins. They include
(and this list *by no means* exhausts the number, maybe ten different ones
per track) Kagel, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Bartok, George Clinton, Jimi
Hendrix, Tom Waits.... IMO essential for everyone interested in this area,
if for no other reason than because it's intelligent, thoughtful, and like
no one else. I highly recommend Chockshut and Cowws as well for those who
like their Eurojazz noisy.
- --
Caleb T. Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
;; For every complex question there is a simple answer.
;; And it is wrong. (H. L. Mencken)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:17:17 -0500
From: Les@voyager.umeres.maine.edu (Les Rhoda)
Subject: Medeski/Zorn worship, Negativland
> Has John Medeski (whom i
> like very much btw..) set the new standard by which to compare?
Absolutely. He's like the Jimi Hendrix of the B-3, always digging into
new effects, tonalities, tricks and tweaks unlike anyone has yet to try
on the keyboards he uses. Medeski is very much influenced by Hendrix
and Sun Ra, among others, and by combining these influences with his
mammoth talent it seems like he's a bottomless well of new ideas. I
don't think anyone since Jimmy Smith has had such an impact on the
state of the Hammond. It doesn't stop there, though, for he is also
taking the Clavinet and Wurlitzer to new extremes on a nightly basis. I
have spoken to many keyboard players about him, and the consensus is
much akin to when Jaco Pastorius or Hendrix arrived on the scene....
time to hit the woodshed!
>negativland; The US media pranksters who 'parodied' a U2 song and got
>sued
For all of you Negativfans, take note: Negativland are on the verge of
releasing a new album whose main theme has to do with Pepsi, and very
well could get them sued into oblivion and give them more material for
another book. Keep a lookout for it, and snatch it up as soon as you
can!
>By the way, does anyone know if John Zorn himself reads any of this
>stuff or if he even has an e-mail address?
Between all of the musical projects he has going on, plus being the
king of obscure books/music/films, and jetting back and forth between
NYC and Hip's Road, I'd bet that he doesn't have time for this stuff. I
bet he gets a little glow knowing that we're here and worship him,
though :)
Les
http://inferno.asap.um.maine.edu/emp/les/negativland.html
- ---------------------------------
audience member to Frisell: "Turn it up, Bill!"
innocent french guy: "Show dem your nasty side"
Zorn, with venom: "You can SUCK his nasty side!"
- ---------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:21:05 -0800
From: Michael Howes <mhowes@best.com>
Subject: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
>You've touched on a subject with a potentially vast range. As far as
>others exploring the use of samples the ones who spring immediately to
>mind are:
>
>Bob Ostertag, tape and sampler manipulator. Played with Fred Frith and
>
>David Shea: Sampler/composer. Another cohort of Zorn et al.
>
>John Oswald; godfather of plunderphonics. Compiles massively reworked
>
>John Wall. London based composer who utilises samples in dark,
>industrial/ambient style compositions.
>
>negativland; The US media pranksters who 'parodied' a U2 song and got
>
>I'd be intertested in any other comments you may have.
I thought id throw in a list of some of my favorites since this is my
favorite "style" of music making. I tend to have a hard time separating the
following;
turntable artists (Marclay, Yoshihide)
media sample artists (Negativland, The Tape-beatles)
strange recording people (Dunn, Lerman)
using records...but... (Crawling with Tarts, Milk Cult)
ultra dense samplers (Grief, Watermann)
and even some Musique concrete (Ferrari, Ruttman)
they all do the same for me...and I love it...so some other
recommendations....
The Tape-beatles: Very much like Negativland...media samples..less humor
more pointed
Steinski & Mass Media: see Negativland and the Tape-beatles
John Waterman: One of my favorites..I love what he does with sampled voices
Dan Burke's (Illusion of Safety) solo stuff: The "Rules Of the Game"
release, which is actually under "Illusion of Safety" is all samples and
some of the stuff he collaborated on with Randy Grief is also all samples.
Randy Grief: I'm always in awe of what he does..I like his older stuff
where he plays instruments along with the samples....
People Like Us: One of my favorites..a lighter Negativland with not such
harsh cuts.
Christian Marclay: Surprise I haven't seen him mentioned with the turntable
people.
Head and Leg: almost a Negativland copy
Phillip Kent Bimstein: does he count? I think all of his compositions are
created with samples..
David Cunningham: The only think I know by him is "Voiceworks" on Eva our
of Japan. It's tape manipulations of the directions given to 6 dancers for
a performance. I guess Tape manipulations don't count as samples but it
sounds very much the same to me.
Alvin Curran: He has a handful of sample compositions.
Crawling With Tarts: Their (his?) "Operas" release was all created with old
records
Milk Cult: The destruction of records to create music...I love it.
Richard Lerman and David Dunn who do micro recordings of things..Dunn's
piece on Arial #2 where he records pond insects is nice. Richard Lerman's
release on Artifact where he records with contact mics the sounds of trees,
grass, and other natural sounds is very nice.
Lastly in the Musique concrete direction is the whole 3" CD series on
Metamkine out of France, which includes releases from Ferrari, Marchetti,
Chion, Ruttmann, and many more.
Lastly on this list is a question. I have a release from a group that goes
buy "Peril". It's on a label our of Australia called "Dr Jim's". Otomo
Yoshihide is on it and it's great. Do these 4 have anything else out.
sample away
mike
mhowes@best.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:46:41 --100
From: flamerik@best.ms.philips.com
Subject: Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
Mike wrote:
> Lastly on this list is a question. I have a release from a group that goes
> buy "Peril". It's on a label our of Australia called "Dr Jim's". Otomo
> Yoshihide is on it and it's great. Do these 4 have anything else out.
Although I've never heard Peril (unfortunately so), I know their drummer, Tony
Buck, is also in a band called The Necks. However, The Necks' music is
totally different - it is described best as jazz soundscapes, I guess.
Ultra-long songs (in the range of 50-65 minutes), very laid back. I have two
albums by them, "Sex" and "Silent Night" (2CD). "Sex" is a 56:08 steady bass
pattern, underscored by shifting drums patterns and piano overlays. "Silent
Night" adds some musique concrete and organ to it two tracks, called "Black"
and "White".
Frankco.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:08:58 +0800
From: Jan-Wen Lu <janwenlu@cerebus.asiaonline.net.tw>
Subject: Sample-based artists
I'm very interested in sample-based artists. Started with Marclay, then I
found Ostertag, Otomo, Shea, etc. Recently, many artists were talked on this
list. I think there are more great artists so I list them as the following:
1.Martin Tetreault-a canadian artist who uses turntable as his main
instrument. His style is very similar to Marclay, but he has played for
about 15 years. He is also a member of a great Canadian group-Bruire.
2.Rik Rue-an Australian composer/artist who use tape, sampler to creat
unique music. Otomo was influenced by him. Has collaborated with Eugene
Chadbourne, Jon Rose, Machine For Making Sense(a great Australian
contemporary/improv group).
3.Frank Schulte-a usual collaborator with Jon Rose. Schulte uses synthesizer
, sampler, tapes, turntable, etc. that made Rose's musci more interesting.
He also collaborated with Anna Homler, David Moss and has his own group
Sotto in Su(a group with trumpet, computer, sampler, tape, vocal).
4.Palinckx-a dutch group that combines their improv playing and different
samples(pop songs, jazz, country, etc.). Sometimes they covers old songs
in a very funny way.
5.Kunt Remond-I've heard he is a member of Voice Crack. This swiss artist
samples pre-recordings of some artists and creates a very spectacular
work. The method is similar to Ostertag's "Say No More". But the result
is close to John Wall's "Alterstill".
Also a great live electronics/sample group-FURT, talented Canadian female
tape/sampler artist-Diane Labrosse(a member of Justine). Those who love
sample-based music must buy the latest issue of Resonance magazine. It is
a special issue with sample-based artists. Ostertag, Shea, Martin Tetreault,
Tim Hodgkinson, etc. Comes with a free CD with unrelesed tunes of Shea,
Stock, Hausen & Walkman, Otomo with Sainkho, Ostertag with Minton, etc.
- --
Jan-Wen Lu E-Mail address: janwenlu@asiaonline.net.tw
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:40:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Anthony Saunders <ajs4283@megahertz.njit.edu>
Subject: Painkiller / Grindcore
I just got Guts Of A Virgin used at Kim's in NYC, and I love it. Much
better than the also incredible Buried Secrets, or so says my roommate, I
love 'em both. Besides the Execution Ground 3xCD, are there any other
Painkiller cds? Painkiller like projects? (mix of jazz, grind, and
ambient, with out the somewhat goofy feel of naked city...)
To play the critic a little more, I think i the Masonna like vocals on
Guts of a Virign really pulls it a head of Buried Secrets for me.
I'm especially interested in sax/bass/drum trios that blast beat. : )
BTW If anyone out there is into grindcore, I have an excellent collection
of grind (real grind like Assuck, Napalm Death, Discordance Axis,
Agoraphobic Nosebleed, etc...), both records and live tapes, and would
love to tape trade grind for jazz.
Anthony
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:19:34 -0800
From: Jeff Spirer <jeffs@hyperreal.com>
Subject: Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
At 09:40 AM 3/14/97 -0500, Anthony Saunders wrote:
>
> I just got Guts Of A Virgin used at Kim's in NYC, and I love it. Much
>better than the also incredible Buried Secrets, or so says my roommate, I
>love 'em both. Besides the Execution Ground 3xCD, are there any other
>Painkiller cds? Painkiller like projects? (mix of jazz, grind, and
>ambient, with out the somewhat goofy feel of naked city...)
There's the Painkiller Live _Rituals_ CD.
Check out the God stuff, it comes reasonably close to what you are asking
for. And an interesting antecedent is Brotzman/Laswell: _Low Life_.
Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material
www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:54:50 +0100 (MEZ)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: Frisell/Baron on DRS II
this one is for all folks in europe:
tonite (friday) at 11 pm DRS II will play Frisell/Baron from Willisau `96...
so if you are in switzerland , germany, austria or whereever check it out
BJOERN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 11:11:44
From: andy.marks@mts.com
Subject: RE: Painkiller / Grindcore
On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:40:35 -0500 (EST) Anthony Saunders <ajs4283@megahertz.njit.edu> wrote:
>love 'em both. Besides the Execution Ground 3xCD, are there any other
>Painkiller cds? Painkiller like projects? (mix of jazz, grind, and
>ambient, with out the somewhat goofy feel of naked city...)
There's a live one, "Rituals: Live in Japan". Haino Keiji guests on a few
tracks. I think this one is pretty hard to come by. I bought mine a few years
ago and have never seen any since.
You might want to check out "Sacrifist" by Praxis. This one features
Buckethead, Laswell, maybe Mick Harris, Zorn, Bootsy Collins, Bernie Worrell,
Blind Idiot God members, Eye. Not really grindcore, but pretty heavy duty stuff.
However, there is a 8-9 minute Bootsy bass solo and a pretty extended keyboard
work out at the end of the album. These two tracks kind of stand out from the others
in that they are basically solos.
- -------------------------------------
Andrew Marks
Software Engineer
MTS-PowerTek, Inc.
E-mail: andy.marks@mts.com
Date: 3/14/97
Time: 11:11:44 AM
Buckethead was raised in the chicken
coop by chickens.
- -------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:16:42 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Michael Howes wrote:
> The Tape-beatles: Very much like Negativland...media samples..less humor
> more pointed
note that they've changed their name
to Public Works. they have a web
site too.
http://soli.inav.net/~psrf/pworks.html
> People Like Us: One of my favorites..a lighter Negativland with not such
> harsh cuts.
for silliness along the lines of People Like Us,
definately check out Stock Hausen & Walkman.
> Lastly on this list is a question. I have a release from a group that goes
> buy "Peril". It's on a label our of Australia called "Dr Jim's". Otomo
> Yoshihide is on it and it's great. Do these 4 have anything else out.
as far as i know, they don't.
Mason Jones of Charnel Music would
know more about them. i think perhaps
there is a review (with information) about
them in the first issue of Ongaku Otaku.
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:38:56 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Tunes
> I'm especially interested in sax/bass/drum trios that blast beat. : )
Check out Charles Gayle, or Peter Brotzmann might have some band out
there with this instrumentation. My favorite album with Peter Brotzmann
is Marylin Crispell/Peter Brotzmann/Hamid Drake-Hyperion. This is
whacked out awesomeness. Check it out.
I noticed someone mentioning Buckethead. I have an awesome album by
Jonas Hellborg/Buckethead/Michael Shrieve called 'Octave of the Holy
Innocents' which is incredible. Jonas Hellborg on acoustic bass guitar,
Buckethead on acoustic guitar and Michael Shrieve on drums. This album
absolutely shreds and would recommend it to anyone.
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:51:02 +0100 (MET)
From: Torsten Nielsen <zoopsi@inet.uni-c.dk>
Subject: Live in China
Does anybody know what's happening with the Zorn/Eye "Live In China" box?
I thought it was supposed to be released in January/February...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:05:34 -0800
From: Michael Howes <mhowes@best.com>
Subject: Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
>
>> People Like Us: One of my favorites..a lighter Negativland with not such
>> harsh cuts.
>
>for silliness along the lines of People Like Us,
>definately check out Stock Hausen & Walkman.
>
>
I have the "Deconstruct" comp which has a couple tracks from them (as well
as John Oswald, Christian Marclay, and others) but do Stock Hausen &
Walkman have anything else out?
mike
mhowes@best.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:42:36 -0500
From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
>On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Anthony Saunders wrote:
>>I'm especially interested in sax/bass/drum trios that blast beat. : )
Then, SUGAR in their vitamins? responded:
>check out the following Kevin Martin projects:
>16-17
Not to nitpick here, but 16-17 is _not_ a Kevin Martin project. 16-17 is a
swiss jazz/noise/beat trio formed in the mid-80's by Alex Buess (the other
members are Markus Kneubuhler & Knut Remond (of Voice Crack)). They have
three full-lengths, the most recent & most well-known one being "Gyatso"
(1994). This record was produced and released by Martin (on his now defunkt
Pathological label) & features him on samples. This was his main
involvement with the band.
Other than this there has been the occasional guest appearance by Buess in
Martin's projects including God & Ice.
>GOD
I second this recommendation. All of the God material is excellent, IMO.
If you like Zorn, he's featured (alto sax) on three tracks of God's second
album, "Possession".
>also, other suggestions would be:
>Alboth!
I have to second this recommendation as well. Another amazing swiss band!
A quartet of bass, drums, piano (played like percussion) and effects-laden
voice. Their older material is more organic. Recent material includes
samples & more electronics.
>Last Exit
>Blind Idiot God
You might also try:
Electric Noise Twist (another Alex Buess project, similar to 16-17)
Bible Launcher (recent debut on Tzdik's Lunatic Fringe)
Ground Zero (S/T & Null & Void)
Peter Brotzmann Octet - "Machine Gun"
Peter Brotzmann Tentet - "Marz Combo"
Hession/Wilkinson/Fell (The Horrors Of Darmstadt &/or Foom! Foom!)
Borbetomagus [this may be pushing it however, as there is no bass
(except on a couple albums) or drums, but the wall of improv jazz/noise
they create (2 sax players + guitar) is astounding]
- -Patrick
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:13:29 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: Sample Artists?! ((WAS: Re: Otomo) (was Burroughs))
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Michael Howes asks:
> I have the "Deconstruct" comp which has a couple tracks from them (as well
> as John Oswald, Christian Marclay, and others) but do Stock Hausen &
> Walkman have anything else out?
yes. they have at least five albums,
mostly all self-released. off
the top of my head:
1993 "Giving Up" CD
1994? "Gothic Land" LP + 7"
1995 "Hairballs" CD
1995 "Stop" CD
i know there's at least one more,
but i can't recall the title offhand.
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:26:15 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Patrick Carey wrote:
> Not to nitpick here, but 16-17 is _not_ a Kevin Martin project.
thanks for the clarification.
i only have "Gyatso" and the liner
notes are sparse.
> ... released by Martin (on his now defunkt Pathological label)
so pathological is defunkt.
what's the story behind this?
> Electric Noise Twist (another Alex Buess project, similar to 16-17)
can you tell more about this?
discography, etc?
> Bible Launcher (recent debut on Tzdik's Lunatic Fringe)
has this been recalled or something?
it's not listed on the Koch/Tzadik
web page. and it was almost impossible
to find!
> Ground Zero (S/T & Null & Void)
yes, i second this recommendation.
> Peter Brotzmann Octet - "Machine Gun"
> Peter Brotzmann Tentet - "Marz Combo"
"Marz Combo" is good. so is
"Rat Dried Dog" (Hamid Drake, Crispell and Broztmann)
and "Die Like A Dog" (an Ayler tribute).
and of course, let's not forget
"Sacred Scrape/Secret Response".
much of Brotzmann's works are
well worth examining.
> Borbetomagus [this may be pushing it however,
don't forget "Barefoot In The Head",
a collaboration between Sauter and Deitrich
(Borb) and Thurston Moore. this is a
really excellent album which has
recently been re-issued.
and if you like Borbetomagus, i
would recommend Dislocation. they
have two albums, "Peak to Peak"
(PSF) and "Carve Another Notch".
both are excellent.
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:57:25 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: simple correction
> "Rat Dried Dog" (Hamid Drake, Crispell and Broztmann)
just a few simple corrections. The album is called 'Dried Rat Dog' and
is a Peter Brotzmann (tenor sax, clarinets, tarogato and things) & Hamid
Drake (drums, percussion) duets albums. Marylin Crispell (piano) is not
on this one.
-Tom Pratt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 19:25:46 -0800
From: "James L. Kirchmer" <jamesk@jamesk.seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash
Nils Jacobson <ngjacobs@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote:
> I don't know why anyone would get all that excited about this Zony Mash
> disc. It's not particularly forward looking and succeeds fairly well but
> not spectacularly musically.
Why? Because it's not a wanker fest? or a noise fest? or?
Moreover, how is it not "forward looking"?
This is nebulous territory......
Go see the band live if you can.(April tour) I think the musical
"X factor" you're lookin' for might be present in this context.
The strength of the compositions is clearly evident in a live
context - where the band can "stretch" out the tunes......
Suffice to say that the musical integrity of the compositions
is such that they can be stretched out WIDE, and past the
breaking point that you might expect after hearing the
taut, "high-wire" compositional act (done over a Louisiana
swamp) presented on the album.
Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net> wrote:
> Wayne Horvitz's organ
> playing also just seems primitive and a little bit lame too because the
> one of the only B-3 players I've been listening to in the past 2 years
> is John Medeski (who I hear A LOT of)
Do you hear Medeski in the compositions, though???
(the compositions are a STRENGTH of the album)
Moreover, comparing Medeski to Wayne is like comparing "dildoes" to
test tubes. ;) Or apples and oranges. whateva....
Their styles are quite different, really, and any Medeski you
hear in Wayne actually came from the old school '60's stuff that
BOTH of them are drawing from. Listen to the soul in the music.
This is the most important aspect of good music. Pleasurable
music is defined by this, IMO. There's lots of shit that sounds
"primitive" compared to the pyrotechnics of John Medeski, but
nevertheless succeeds equally in the end in the "music" dept.
Two perfect examples: the playing of Pigpen(RIP) and Fela.
> I agree that 'Shack-Man' isn't as good as the rest of 'em but it jams
> harder than Zony Mash especially live. Those songs off the new album I
> think are decent on the CD but live they are awesome!
Same goes for Zony Mash. I've seen 'em do many LONG jams(live).
Beware of comparing their new STUDIO album to the slew of
LIVE MMW bootlegs you probably have.
In the end,
****the world of music is an EXHIBITION, NOT a COMPETITION,
and the gallery is better off with Wayne Horvitz at the keys of a B3.
> I think they're great especially Richard "Groove" Holmes. He busts it up
> soulwise but on the creatively groundbreaking side, they're lacking, but
> I don't think they were ever trying to do this. They were playing what
> they loved, felt and moved them and their audience.
You're WAY OFF on this. (trust me on this one)
- - and to say that "they"(?)never tried to "be creatively groundbreaking"
is an insult, really! I hope you're not including Larry Young in your
"they" category. Or Jimmy Smith, or GROOVE HOLMES FOR THAT MATTER!!!!
Whatchooooooooooooooooo talkin' 'bout WILLIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSS??????
Don't tell us that you've done yer homework!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace,
James Kirchmer
p.s. - check out Charles Earland. He still tours...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 19:55:58 -0800
From: "James L. Kirchmer" <jamesk@jamesk.seanet.com>
Subject: Re: Fred Chalenor
Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:32:46 -0800 "James L. Kirchmer" wrote:
> > just droppin' a note to say that Zony Mash's debut album,
> > titled "Cold Spell", is out and it's HOT! (on knitting factory records).
> > Wayne is on Hammond B3, Fred Chalenor is on bass, Tim Young on guitar,
> > and Andy Roth on drums.
> > Fred Chalenor(Pigpen/Hughscore/Freestyle Candela/etc.) is Seattle's
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Is it one of his Seattle projects? I never heard about this band before.
Freestyle Candela is a Seattle-based soukous/rumba/highlife/blues/jazz
influenced(among other influences) local band led by Leif Totusek
on guitar. The current lineup of choice is Fred on bass, Denny Stern
on percussion, Attey Nettey on congas, and Skerik(Critters Buggin') on
tenor sax(if he is available, as he is very busy these days with
Critters and soon with Tuatara(new project with Peter Buck(REM))
Jessica Lurie(from the Living Daylights and also the Billy Tipton
Memorial Saxophone Quartet) also appears on sax occasionally...
Anyways, Freestyle is an amazing "African funk" band, basically -
and Leif Totusek is one BAD guitar player. Fred is excited to play
with them, and a show they played on Valentine's Day(with Jessica)
was a total dance party. Fred has not recorded with Freestyle yet
but hopefully will this spring. Moreover, he has JUST started
jamming with the band. It is a new development, and he is excited
about developing his funky AfroCuban chops. He has fit in superbly
(and quickly!) so things look promising.....
Leif has played his brand of African-American jazz funk all over the
world, as a former member of Mose Se Fan Fan's SOMO SOMO(London),
and as a leader of bands in London, Boston, and now Seattle,
his hometown...
There's more to Seattle than grunge as you all probably have
realized by now! (Now, if only Bill Frisell would play more
around here.... ;)
Ciao - james kirchmer
p.s. - there is a new(BASIC!) website at -
http://www.soukous.com/freestyle.html that offers a bit more
information on the band. There is a CD available, but it does
not feature Fred Chalenor on bass. Keith Lowe is on bass.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:10:40 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: simple correction
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Tom Pratt wrote:
> just a few simple corrections. The album is called 'Dried Rat Dog' and
> is a Peter Brotzmann (tenor sax, clarinets, tarogato and things) & Hamid
> Drake (drums, percussion) duets albums. Marylin Crispell (piano) is not
> on this one.
you're right. i'm thinking of
"Hyperion" (Music & Arts).
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 01:40:35 -0800
From: mool@sirius.com (Allan)
Subject: Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
Anthony said he's looking for:
>Painkiller like projects? (mix of jazz, grind, and
>ambient, with out the somewhat goofy feel of naked city...)
> I'm especially interested in sax/bass/drum trios that blast beat. : )
unfortunately, neither Drop Dead nor the Cripple Bastards have put out any
records featuring saxophone, to my knowledge...
Here's another suggestion (and I concur with most of what other folks have
come up with, especially the 16/17, that may well be the closest to what
Anthony desires):
how about The Flying Luttenbachers --> Chicago "no-wave" jazzpunk
combo that at first featured the saxophone of the late Hal Russell. Ken
Vandermark has also appeared with them...on their latest release (on Skin
Graft), I believe that the saxophone is handled by their (goofy? he's named
Weasel Walter) drummer.
and then there's a bunch of somewhat inter-related Japanese bands in the
Naked City vein, goofy or not depending on your personal taste I suppose:
Ground Zero (already mentioned by someone), P.O.N., Altered States, etc.
There's even a Ruins cd (Early Works) that features the saxophone of Zorn
on several tracks.
...
it seems like there's a bunch of jazz/grind outfits, and some
jazz/ambient/noise ones (Borbetomagus and Dislocation have been mentioned -
and Dislocation does remind me a bit of some of Painkiller's _Execution
Ground_), but not much grind/ambient or all threee...
well, the last Burzum album could be considered grind/ambient,
but not jazz.
...and somebody mentioned Hession/Wilkinson/Fell. That reminds me to
mention Descension (featuring bassist Simon Fell, saxophonist Charles
Wharf, and Tony Irving and Stephan Jaworzyn of Ascension) and Ascension.
Ascension is a way intense British guitar/drums improv duo, Descension adds
the aforementioned sax and double bass, and both groups have total
rip-your-head-off discs out on Jaworzyn's Shock label.
and oh yeah, how about Rudolph Grey's Blue Humans? That _Mask of Light_
record, anyway, with Rashied Ali & one of the Borbetomagus sax players (Jim
Sauter), that kills, esp. the 35+ minute title track!
lastly, there is (or was?) a band here in San Francisco called Topple
(sax/electric bass/percussion/vocal manipulation) that do both all-out
improv and also some very tight, composed material...any fan of
Zorn/Painkiller I'm sure would dig them.
whew,
Allan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:35:51 +0100 (MEZ)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: Lauren Newton
could please someone tell ma if there is a LN discography or biography on
the net???????
BJOERN
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:40:17 -0800
From: herb@eskimo.com (Herb Levy)
Subject: Sample Artists
Any review of the folks using samples in their work should include:
Carl Stone, with CDs on New Albion, New Tone, Trigram (with Otomo
Yoshihida), E:mit, and
Nicolas Collins, with Ostertag, one of the first to use live real-time
sampling in an improvised context.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:04:59 -0500
From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
>so pathological is defunct. what's the story behind this?
There really isn't one. I mean, I am not 100% certain that Pathological
is dead, but the last release was 16-17's "Gyatso" back in early 1994.
Since then, Martin has been overly busy producing, recording & writing ...
with all his projects [Techno Animal, God (I read somewhere that he's
called it quits on this because of the # of people involved; it becomes
very complicated to organize, record & tour together), EAR, The Sidewinder,
Macro Dub Infection comps, Bug! plus the tons of other records he's worked
on
in the past few years] there just isn't time. But who's to say he won't
revive it someday ...
[Electric Noise Twist (another Alex Buess project, similar to 16-17)]
>can you tell more about this? discography, etc?
Well, there isn't much to tell. ENT consists of Buess [saxophones, drums,
contrabassclarinet, 8-string bass] Markus Kneubuhler [bass, tapes, violin-
controlled electronic devices, guitar, electronic percussion] and Christoph
Fringeli [voices, guitars, drums, keyboards] and they have only one full
length LP out which is self-titled (Vision 23). It was released in 1989 on
Buess' (possibly also defunct) Vision label out of Switzerland.
I believe there is a review of this LP in the EST Zine archives if you're
interested. They are also featured on the Vision compilation CD (see
below),
">Knock Out<", released in 1991 (Vision 35).
Vision released a lot of electronic/beat-box/jazz-noise in the
mid-late 80's/early 90's ... the compilation CD (1st & possibly
only Vision CD, all previous releases were LPs/12"s) is a good
sample of the sounds Vision was pushing.
[Bible Launcher (recent debut on Tzdik's Lunatic Fringe)]
>has this been recalled or something? it's not listed on the Koch/Tzadik
>web page. and it was almost impossible to find!
I'm not sure. I don't own it. I saw it used in a store recently (I was
surprised since I didn't think it was out yet) and I gave it a listen.
IMO, it wasn't that great, almost a grunge/metal/jazz sound (very rock
oriented) with vocals that I didn't care much for. I've been impressed with
other Tzadik releases, but this one seemed like something I would have been
interested in 3 or 4 years back. Only my opinion of course ... I included
it here because it does fit into the jazz-thrash area.
[Ground Zero]
>yes, i second this recommendation.
Something that may be of interest here, since we're talking about 16-17
et al ... Otomo samples (well, plays the record on his turntable) 16-17's
"Who Planned All This?" from their live LP, "When All Else Fails",
on the S/T Ground Zero album. Check out track 13, "Euthanasia Drive",
and listen for the pounding rapid drum lines/squealing in the background
at the beginning & end of the track.
[Peter Brotzmann]
>"Marz Combo" is good. so is
>"Rat Dried Dog" (Hamid Drake, Crispell and Broztmann) **
>and "Die Like A Dog" (an Ayler tribute).
>and of course, let's not forget
>"Sacred Scrape/Secret Response".
>much of Brotzmann's works are
>well worth examining.
Agreed on all of these being excellent. Note (**) ... This one is
titled "Dried Rat Dog" and does not feature Crispell.
[Borbetomagus]
>don't forget "Barefoot In The Head",
>a collaboration between Sauter and Deitrich
>(Borb) and Thurston Moore. this is a
>really excellent album which has
>recently been re-issued.
Yes, excellent. Since the Shock version is long gone, and the first FE issue
has disappeared, it's good to see a second re-issue.
>and if you like Borbetomagus, i would recommend Dislocation. they
>have two albums, "Peak to Peak" (PSF) and "Carve Another Notch".
>both are excellent.
Yes on these as well. Also, check out their recent
"Coyote's Call" LP on Fusetron. Nice stuff!
And while we're on the subject, don't forget Ascension, Descension, or
Stefan Jaworzyn's recent improv. album on Incus w/ Alan Wilkinson.
- -Patrick
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:06:00 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Painkiller / Grindcore
On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:04:59 -0500 Patrick Carey wrote:
>
> [Bible Launcher (recent debut on Tzdik's Lunatic Fringe)]
>
> >has this been recalled or something? it's not listed on the Koch/Tzadik
> >web page. and it was almost impossible to find!
>
> I'm not sure. I don't own it. I saw it used in a store recently (I was
> surprised since I didn't think it was out yet) and I gave it a listen.
> IMO, it wasn't that great, almost a grunge/metal/jazz sound (very rock
> oriented) with vocals that I didn't care much for. I've been impressed with
> other Tzadik releases, but this one seemed like something I would have been
> interested in 3 or 4 years back. Only my opinion of course ... I included
> it here because it does fit into the jazz-thrash area.
The story is confusing. The record was supposed to be released on August 96.
At the very last minute, to avoid problems with some of the samples (taken
from preachers), the release was postponed, with the intent to release a
watered down version (without the samples) later.
Now, it seems that the decision to not release the record happened when
the records were already in the hand of some stores (Tower, Borders). Net
result? Even though the record was withdrawn at the last minute, you could,
for a short period of time, find it at Tower and Borders. I bought my copy
at Tower on August 25, and, surprisingly, I found a second one at the same
store on... December 9!!!!
My guess is that the story is more complicated than what I described...
But that's the best I know right now.
Patrice.
------------------------------
End of zorn-list Digest V2 #70
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