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Subject:   zorn-list Digest V2 #51
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zorn-list Digest          Friday, 17 January 1997      Volume 02 : Number 051

In this issue:

    Club Foot?
    Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #49
    Re: Club Foot?
    FAQ:  "tzadik"
    Re: Club Foot?
    Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please
    folks who say Zorn can't play
    Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please
    S Clark Mem 4Tet (Zorn can't play)
    Re: FAQ: "tzadik"
    Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please
    Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please
    Re: folks who say Zorn can't play
    Re: FAQ: "tzadik"
    Re: Club Foot?
    Re: folks who say Zorn can't play
    Re: Zorn/Canada ?
    Re: folks who say Zorn can't play
    Voodoo

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:23:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Club Foot?

hey now,

i hope this is not too off-topic for
this list.

i hear that Club Foot Orchestra is
planning to play at the Catro Theatre in
San Francisco this saturday (1-18). does
anyone have any details as to what they
plan to do and when exactly it is to
happen? i checked the SF Bay Guardian
online, but their calendar doesn't
mention the show. i understand that
there will be an additional string
section and vocalist in the roster for
the show.

hasta. --dk

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:11:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #49

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, John E. Young wrote:

> > > himself as an outstanding composer.  If your standard of playing is based
> > > on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player.  Many
>
> i've missed much of this thread, but this statement, in particular, seems
> worth some debate.  zorn doesn't spend his time playing "night in
> tunisia" over and over (or any other bop chestnuts), but i'd challenge
> anyone who's seen a masada show to name an alto player who tops him in
> live performance in a bebop style.

Well, as the original poster, I should probably clarify my point.  By
'bebop', I meant specifically chord-based improvisation.  In other words,
I wasn't counting freebop.  My impression is that Zorn has never played
the changes, as it were, on record.  (Disclaimer:  I don't have the
greatest ear for harmony, so I wouldn't be shocked if I were wrong.  If
someone can point to a place where Zorn does this, I'd really like to know
about it.)  If I'm right, he hasn't demonstrated his ability to meet
this standard.
     I also gathered from the following Zorn quote from an
interview with Francis Davis that Zorn couldn't play the changes:  "You
can spend your whole life, like Frisell has, learning to get inside the
chords.  I don't do it that way." (from Davis' _Bebop and Nothingness_, p.
189)  If I'm understanding this quote correctly, Zorn is in fact a very
poor player by this standard.  As John Shiurba has pointed out, however,
this is a pretty silly standard to apply to Zorn's playing, as it
completely misses the point.

> masada's tunes are based on jewish
> music, but when they do the uptempo stuff, it's as close to bop as
> any new music now being played.

I'm not entirely sure how you're using the term 'new music' here.  There
are certainly plenty of young musicians still playing 50's-style hard bop,
and some of them are even very good about it.  If by 'new music' you mean
stylistically new music, then I'd probably agree, but then the standard
discussed above pretty much rules out any substantial innovation.

>  zorn's chops, harmonic inventiveness,
> and melodic sense are on a par (in my experience of a few masada shows)
> with anyone else these days on his instrument.  i'd even venture
> to say he tops everyone else (but that's only in my experience).

I've only seen Masada once, but on that night, Zorn's playing was, in my
opinion, weak relative to the three guys he was sharing the stage with.
Admittedly, that's tough competition; Zorn was pretty good.  But I don't
think he was playing freebop on the level of, say, Joe Lovano, whom I'd
seen a week earlier.  Of course, Zorn may just have been having a slightly
off night.  In any case, I'm willing to bet that old masters like Ornette
Coleman and Jackie McLean could still cut Zorn on a pretty regular basis.
     Don't get me wrong.  I think Masada is a great band.  They interact
beautifully, and that's far more important than any individual's
performance as a soloist.  Furthermore, Zorn is a great saxophonist in
other contexts (e.g. free improv, Painkiller, or even the less
conventional bop-based News for Lulu trio).  But as a freebop player, I'd
say he's good, not great.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:36:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Club Foot?

SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:

> i hear that Club Foot Orchestra is
> planning to play at the Catro Theatre in
> San Francisco this saturday (1-18). does
> anyone have any details as to what they
> plan to do and when exactly it is to
> happen?

CFO is doing their newest film score, "The Hands Of Orlac" Fri-Mon at 8pm
at the Castro. There may be other showtimes (?). People interested in the
whole New York scene writing scores to silent films, should check out Club
Foot's stuff. As they say, they did it first.
- --



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:20:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FAQ:  "tzadik"

Is "tzadik" a Hebrew or Yiddish word?  It's included in the book Joys of
Yiddish but does anybody know if it was borrowed from Hebrew?

Lang Thompson
http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm

------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:35:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Club Foot?

>i hear that Club Foot Orchestra is
>planning to play at the Catro Theatre in
>San Francisco this saturday (1-18). does
>anyone have any details as to what they
>plan to do and when exactly it is to
>happen?

Strange.  If it weren't for the fact that I had all my wisdom teeth out
this afternoon, I would probably be hanging out with Beth Custer at a
mutual friend's birthday party right at this moment.

Anyway:

From the Castro's calendar:

Fri 17 - Mon 20:
8 pm daily:  CFO perform their new score for the "Hands of Orlac" (Robert
Weine, Austria, 1924)  $10.

Sun 19 - Mon 20
2pm daily:  CFO do Buster Keaton's "Sherlock Jr" and a couple of shorts.
$6 adults/$4 children.  (Delightful and very sureal film and a delightful
soundtrack for those who aren't already familiar with it).

Alexander



------------------------------

From: DANIEL BITTON <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please

Not to mention the equally urgent:
    -what's with the tzitzis?
    -what's with the Abracadabra Tshirt (the one or The Big Gundown,
     and that he always wears)
    -does he have a closet full of them like Charlie Brown?
    -is there more that one in different shades of orange, or does it
     just fade with washings?
    -I saw him with a new pair of army pants, is that because the old
     ones disintegrated after 15 years of constant wear?
    -is it true that he's growing his hair so that he can look cool
     enough to be the new saxophonist for the Smashing Pumpkins?
    -why doesn't he ever wear a Green Day T-shirt?
    -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he
     was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come
     back to Canada again?
    -Montreal is so damn hip. Why doesn't he ever play here?

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
>     Mike,
>
>     You forgot the most important:
>
>     - why do Zorn wear socks with different colors?
>     - how many army pants does he own?
>     - what is the size of his record collection (CD, LP, etc)?
>     - what is the size of his Asian porn movie collection?
>     - is he gay?
>     - is somebody working on his biography?
>     - when is he gonna rent a larger appartment?
>
>     Patrice :-).
>

------------------------------

From: Jeff Schwartz <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:33:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: folks who say Zorn can't play

I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark
Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight,
not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to
Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn
sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony
Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable
master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that
interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting
the harmonies of standard song forms.
Anyway, just wanted to throw the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet album into
this thread.

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:09:11 -0800
Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST)  DANIEL BITTON wrote:
>
> Not to mention the equally urgent:
>     -what's with the tzitzis?
>     -what's with the Abracadabra Tshirt (the one or The Big Gundown,
>      and that he always wears)
>     -does he have a closet full of them like Charlie Brown?
>     -is there more that one in different shades of orange, or does it
>      just fade with washings?
>     -I saw him with a new pair of army pants, is that because the old
>      ones disintegrated after 15 years of constant wear?
>     -is it true that he's growing his hair so that he can look cool
>      enough to be the new saxophonist for the Smashing Pumpkins?
>     -why doesn't he ever wear a Green Day T-shirt?
>     -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he
>      was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come
>      back to Canada again?
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with
France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about
his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?).

    Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for
        the FAQ).

------------------------------

From: "Allen Huotari" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 09:08:15 PST
Subject: S Clark Mem 4Tet (Zorn can't play)

     I find Jeff's posting below personally interesting in that several
     "hard bop" aficianados I know think that the only worthwhile things
     Zorn has ever recorded are the Lulus and Sonny Clark Memorial (and go
     on to express the opinion that Zorn SHOULD record more of this)

     while I don't dispute that some may despise Zorn's style or
     interpretations on the basis of these recordings, my own experience
     with "jazz purists" (whatever that might mean) is that they rather
     enjoy these discs


     so I guess my question to the group at large would be whether the
     opinions they've encountered with regard to Lulu or Sonny Clark are
     largely negative or positive

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: folks who say Zorn can't play
Author:  Jeff Schwartz <[e-mail]> at smtpgate
Date:    1/17/97 8:58 AM


I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark
Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight,
not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to
Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn
sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony
Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable
master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that
interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting
the harmonies of standard song forms.
Anyway, just wanted to throw the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet album into
this thread.




------------------------------

From: DANIEL BITTON <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:50:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: FAQ: "tzadik"

Yup, borrowed from Hebrew, like a whole lot of Yiddish words.
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 [e-mail] wrote:

> Is "tzadik" a Hebrew or Yiddish word?  It's included in the book Joys of
> Yiddish but does anybody know if it was borrowed from Hebrew?
>
> Lang Thompson
> http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm
>

------------------------------

From: DANIEL BITTON <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:53:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST)  DANIEL BITTON wrote:
> >     -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he
> >      was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come
> >      back to Canada again?
>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with
> France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about
> his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?).
>
>     Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for
>         the FAQ).
>
So tell us about it!

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:29:13 -0800
Subject: Re: draft of FAQ - COMMENTS Please

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:53:20 -0500 (EST)  DANIEL BITTON wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST)  DANIEL BITTON wrote:
> > >     -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he
> > >      was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come
> > >      back to Canada again?
> >      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with
> > France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about
> > his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?).
> >
> >     Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for
> >         the FAQ).
> >
> So tell us about it!

The lineup was basically the following:

    John Zorn
    Arto Lindsay (Zorn and him barely talking to each other at that time,
        but the contract mentioning Lindsay, he had to be there)
    Bill Frisell
    William Winant (in the back, not really realizing what was happening)
    ??? (forgot what other musicians were there)
    2 x female prostitutes from NYC (hired just before taking the plane
        for France!)

There were many TV monitors on stage playing Asian porn movies (on the scatology
side, to be more precise). The prostitutes were dressed as you might expect (very
scanty and outrageous). Toward the end, one of them, equipped with a whip,
started to whip Bill Frisell! At the end, one of them put a condom on a huge
tubular microphone and ... did what you can imagine.

The audience? Reacting to the videos, started to yell "Merde, merde, etc"
(merde means shit).

I did not see it but various reports coincide on this. Sounded like a lot of
fun :-). Anyway, I guess everybody got pissed and it did not work so well.
It was in 1991 (1992?) and Zorn decided not to go back to France. I also
guess that French festival became more careful about their "creations" (which
often exhibit an amazingly high ratio price over quality).

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: Howard Shih <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:49:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: folks who say Zorn can't play

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Jeff Schwartz wrote:

> I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark
> Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight,
> not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to
> Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn
> sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony
> Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable
> master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that
> interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting
> the harmonies of standard song forms.
> Anyway, just wanted to throw the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet album into
> this thread.

I just got this album recently and I quite enjoyed the few times I
listened to it.  Granted I'm far from an expert on be-bop, or jazz in
general. Does this make me a a mediocre listener?

Howard Shih
[e-mail]
Cybrarian/Assistant Programmer
Meta 4 Digital Design
Phone: [phone] Ext. 242
FAX:   [phone]


------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:42:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: FAQ: "tzadik"

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, DANIEL BITTON wrote:

> Yup, borrowed from Hebrew, like a whole lot of Yiddish words.

since Yiddish is a combination of
Hebrew and German, that's quite an
understatement!

hasta.
(me? pendantic? naw!)

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:09:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Club Foot?

> Strange.  If it weren't for the fact that I had all my wisdom teeth out
> this afternoon, I would probably be hanging out with Beth Custer at a
> mutual friend's birthday party right at this moment.

as I understand it , Beth Custer left Club Foot Orch last year. Is she back
in?
- --



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:45:10 -0800
Subject: Re: folks who say Zorn can't play

    Jeff,

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:33:43 -0500 (EST)  Jeff Schwartz wrote:
>
> I think a lot of the "Zorn can't play" stuff comes from the Sonny Clark
> Memorial 4tet LP. It's classic Blue Note tunes done pretty damn straight,
> not re-arranged like on the News for Lulu LPs (or what Zorn's done to
> Morricone, Ornette, Mancini, etc etc etc). On this particular album, Zorn
> sounds like a mediocre bop player, similar to the worst moments of Anthony
> Braxton's Standards & In the Tradition sets. These guys are unquestionable
> master saxophonists and composers, but, like Zorn said about himself in that
> interview someone quoted, they've chosen not to spend much time dissecting
> the harmonies of standard song forms.

You also surprise me. I personally like a lot VOODOO and think they all play
fairly well with a little something that does not make the record a pure
rehash of the orginal.

Now, from a purist bop perspective, does Zorn compete with the experts? I
am not qualified to answer that question, whose answer, must I say, does
not prevent me from sleeping well. But like I said before, when Zorn covers
somebody, it is never a straight cover. Although VOODOO seems to me fairly
close to the spirit of late '50s bop, there is a little something that is
just not in the original, hence my appreciation for it.

Ironically, jazz people on r.m.b. were very positive about the NEWS FOR LULU.
I remember replying by saying how ironic it was to praise (and at last appre-
ciate) Zorn for his less original record, although well played. I was
surprised by the people who took the defense of Zorn :-).

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: Alain  Potvin <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:58:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Zorn/Canada ?

At 09:09 17/01/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST)  DANIEL BITTON wrote:

>>     -is it true that at his last show in Quebec (Victoriaville) he
>>      was real pissed at something for some reason and swore never to come
>>      back to Canada again?
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>John seems to have this kind of fit on a regular basis. He did the same with
>France where he refused to play until recently. There is a crazy story about
>his creation of DE SADE at a big festival outside Paris (in 1991?).
>
>    Patrice (ashamed for having forgotten these important questions for
>        the FAQ).


        I saw Zorn (Masada) at Victoriaville in 95, it seem that he was
pissed because he want to play unplugged. The organisation did'nt want that.
So, they play plugged. The audience was too big to play unplugged (600
persons)... The show was great, on stage he was very happy. (Some of you
probably have the recording of Radio-Canada)

        Musicians have always good words on Victoriaville festival. It
was'nt is first visit at Victo (Naked City, Zorn/Frith 1988, Slan 199?,)  .
The problem with Canada is more large... I dont know why?

If sometime Quebec become a country i hope he will come here. Ha! Ha! :)

sorry for my poor english!


Alain Potvin
St-Felicien
Quebec, Canada



------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 19:32:44 -0600
Subject: Re: folks who say Zorn can't play

On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>    Jeff,
>
>
>You also surprise me. I personally like a lot VOODOO and think they all play
>fairly well with a little something that does not make the record a pure
>rehash of the orginal.
>
>Now, from a purist bop perspective, does Zorn compete with the experts? I
>am not qualified to answer that question, whose answer, must I say, does
>not prevent me from sleeping well. But like I said before, when Zorn covers
>somebody, it is never a straight cover. Although VOODOO seems to me fairly
>close to the spirit of late '50s bop, there is a little something that is
>just not in the original, hence my appreciation for it.
>
>Ironically, jazz people on r.m.b. were very positive about the NEWS FOR LULU.
>I remember replying by saying how ironic it was to praise (and at last appre-
>ciate) Zorn for his less original record, although well played. I was
>surprised by the people who took the defense of Zorn :-).
>
>    Patrice.
>
>
>Briefly, my take on this is that Zorn's fluid approach coupled with an unusual
hodgepodge of phrasing techniques breath new life into an idiom that's been
beaten to a dead horse. All the young lion mainstream folks with the slick
productions and marketing backing have exploited post bop ad infinitum. It gets
tiresome...therefore I've pretty much shut the door on buying young lion
product, well for the most part. Zorn's cajoling is one thing but every now and
then he demonstrates his mind boggling technique and overall attributes. I'd
sure as hell rather listen to Zorn playing mainstream than most of the MOR shit
that's getting all the publicty and recognition. Now this is my opinion...I mean
after awhile all the Hargrove, Avery and Redman cd's start sounding alike.
Personally, I dig these guys and appreciate their intentions but.... I like
Hargrove's "Family" cd which showed some maturity and compositional integrity
but when the young lion of the week starts popping up like weeds in
concrete...well, I'll stop here..

Zorn is an innovator. He has great vision and remarkable dedication. He's
focused and willing to take chances (needless to say). Personally, I don't like
everything he's done but find his path inviting and extremely interesting.  I
recently picked up Filmworks VI. Ok, it's great but that 19 minute cut is a flat
out bore and I selfishly wished he utilized cd space a tad better...

glenn

------------------------------

From: Jeff Schwartz <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:02:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Voodoo

Sorry to have shocked anybody by bringing up Voodoo. I think it's a cool
record. I was just trying to imagine how some bop head might hear it and
find it inept rather than original, the same way a lot of reviewers dogged
Braxton's In the Tradition.
Like, I haven't seen any reviews saying Zorn can't play, but I've hardly
seen any reviews in proportion to his prolific output. Last year Downbeat
reviewed what? I saw one Masada CD review. It was very positive, but geez!
One review. How are Cadence and Option? Option always has a ton of
reviews, but they seem to have become more and more of a so-called
alternative rock thang. Cadence used to have loads of reviews too and
probably still do, but no store in town carries it (I need to subscribe!).
Same deal with Bill Laswell-I never seem to see reviews of his dozens of
projects. I guess small labels don't have much promotion money, but
whenever I'm in L.A. I see lots of Axiom promos in used stores...

------------------------------

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