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Subject:   zorn-list Digest V2 #49
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zorn-list Digest          Tuesday, 14 January 1997      Volume 02 : Number 049

In this issue:

    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: The Horns of Dilemma
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    OLD (was Re: James Plotkin)
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #48
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Tzadik Festival 97
    Masada at mogador
    Re: Mc Hellshit
    Alexander von Schlippenbach
    Re: Masada at mogador
    Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach
    Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:05:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

> > In the end, it's all what you like.
>
> No, it's not.  If Zorn's music were predictable and derivative, it would
> be bad, and if you liked it, you'd be showing yourself to have bad taste.
>
> Chris Hamilton
> [e-mail]
>
> Chris's Pet Peeve of the Week: kneejerk relativism
>

shiurba's new pet peeve: kneejerk arbitration of taste :-)
- --



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:25:36 -0800
Subject: Re: The Horns of Dilemma

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:45:36 -0700  Greg Mills wrote:
>
> All-
>
> Way back when, I saw the Violent Femmes live ('88?) and the Horns of
> Dilemma appeared as backup.  Now, on the album "Hallowed Ground" (which
> has since disappeared from my possession) Zorn is listed as the Game-call
> Meister.
>
> I was wondering if JZ toured with the VF as a member of the Horns of
> Dilemma or what?

I doubt that Zorn ever toured with the Violent Femmes. There is an article
where he shortly mentions the recording session where they gave him total
freedom to do what he wanted. Nothing else is mentioned, which seems to
indicate that their "collaboration" did not go beyond the recording
session of Black Girls.

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:27:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

> Well, these arguments have force because sometimes they're on target.
> People also cried "fake" over progressive rock, and, in the main, they
> were right.  Are the people decrying Kenny G today going to look
> ridiculous in a few decades?  Let's hope not.  I don't think you can so
> readily dismiss these accusations.  If the accusations are wrong, we ought
> to be able to show that they're wrong.

it's interesting at look at how people like Ornette Coleman and Anthony Braxton have
overcome these accusations. Ornette would basically smile and bite his tongue, Braxton
would grimace and stand up for his right to challenge the criteria used to judge his
music. Yet, in the end, it wasn't really what either said or didn't say about being called
a fake (or whatever) that redeemed them and secured their legacy, it was simply the
music itself, and each plugged away as long as it took, until finally (a substantial
portion of) the public and the critics came around to see that work was sincere and
legitimate.

> 2) Zorn's "Poor" Playing and Composing:  This obviously depends a great
> deal on the standard being used.  If your standard of composition is based
> on 19th Century European orchestral music, zorn has not established
> himself as an outstanding composer.  If your standard of playing is based
> on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player.  Many
> smart, educated people use these sorts of standards, and will thus
> consider Zorn to measue up poorly on one or both counts.

perhaps many smart, educated people are misapplying these standards then. It just
doesn't make sense to take a saxophonist who has created a body of work that includes
"The Classic Guide To Strategy" among other things and judge him solely against a
backdrop of bebop saxophonists. Likewise with his notated music, with respect to 19th
(!?) Century composition. Zorn doesn't fall in line after Beethoven and Wagner, there
are generations of developments since then shed a whole new light on Zorn's ideas
about composition and its interface with improvisation, among other things.

> I wouldn't call him bad
> at either of these, but I can imagine that someone who heard Zorn
> primarily in these contexts might overreact to the hype (or whatever) and
> describe his work as poor.

and that would reflect, in this case little more than their ignorance. Not to imply that
they need to like this music, or even to recognize any music after 1900 as having any
value-- but judgements/criticism made without historical perspective are rarely of
much value.

- --



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba



------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:49:24 -0500
Subject: OLD (was Re: James Plotkin)

LP Thorpe wrote:

>Any idea when the Relapse release is coming out? Maybe Plotkin got tired of
>the lack of support from Earache.

Well, Earache dropped Old (if I remember correctly) some 5 or 6 months ago,
apparently because they weren't doing enough for the label saleswise & in
other areas as well.  Also, Alan Dubin (vocalist) left the band sometime
around this period.  I don't think Jimmy cared very much either way in
terms of leaving the label, but I would say he did get tired of the lack of
support (a major complaint from bands on the label).  Of course, with Old
on hiatus, Plotkin has been free to continue his solo (A Strange,
Perplexing CD, and the soon to be released d'n'b 12" "Jungle Concret" as
Jupiter Crew on Harris' Possible label) and collaborative work (Collapse w/
Harris, The Joy Of Disease (which was actually finished in '95), an
upcoming guitar collaboration with Brent Gutzeit, and a CD entitled "Form"
on Sub Rosa, again with Harris).

I've been meaning to ask Relapse for an actual release date, but so far
it's scheduled for sometime this Spring.  In the meantime, if it's not out
already, there's supposed to be a 7" also on Relapse called "Old Does Neu"
where the band (Plotkin et al. plus whatever new vocalist he chooses, he
was considering a female one) covers (you guessed it) legendary
Krautrockers, Neu.

For anyone interested in more Old/Plotkin info, check out:

wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~strahorn/old


- -Patrick



------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:57:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Sat, 11 Jan 97 18:05 WET  dennis summers wrote:
>
> I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting
> conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience
> that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these
> guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes
> poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems
> pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this
> obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read
> seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that
> share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that
> opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out.

I will only talk about people who are supposed to know (as opposed to
people who have not the slightest clue).

I notice that Zorn has a propension to annoy a lot of people, specially
musicians who play in only one genre of music and are having a hard time
at doing it correctly (meaning: no audience, total lack of interest for
their performance, not able to get any record out, etc). For these people,
somebody like Zorn who can hop from one style to another with fairly good
results and non negligeable success, is the summum of what they can accept.
I have encountered people like that and tried to keep polite.

I guess that for their ego, thinking that Zorn is a fake is the best
they can come up with. Without that escape they would have to face some
embarrassing questions such as: "What would music be without me?", and the
terrible answer: "The same..."

In clear, most of these comments are coming from fairly mediocre artists
who indulge too much in petting their own back. The good thing is that
you can recognize them easily, and hence avoid them.

By this I am not trying to say that every person who dares to have some
questions concerning Zorn's relevance falls in this category. But I have
met enough people with such an attitude toward Zorn that it is
my first reaction when I hear this kind of statement (that Zorn is a
fake).

Some other reasons? Maybe the myth of the tortured artist (that value and
recognition do not go together). Maybe also earlier fans bitter that their
avant garde darling gets "too much" coverage.

Zorn fails to meet all the romantic cliches associated with an artist:

    - he is in control
    - he knows what he is doing
    - he knows what he wants
    - he knows how to get it
    - he is versatile
    - good in business
    - he is imaginative
    - he can use his weaknesses at his advantage

where some people would like to see him:

    - soft spoken
    - frail
    - quiet
    - moving in a one-minded, one-dimension style of music
    - lousy in business
    - playing in empty clubs

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Patrick J. Frisco)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:26:39 -0500
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #48

Re: Zorn a fake?:

Of course he is, like so many other creative musicians.  Seems that
a lot of artists like to devote entire careers, hours of practice,
composing, traveling with poor accomodations, and living in poverty,
just so that they may be called fakes by those who REALLY know.

Disgustedly yours,

Pat Frisco

------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:50:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, john shiurba wrote:

> shiurba's new pet peeve: kneejerk arbitration of taste :-)

My legs are a-twitchin'.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:48:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:

> >I'm not sure what this means.  Artistic merit is certainly not just up to
> >taste. It's appropriate to ask for reasons when I say I find value in a
> >piece of art, and I can be convinced by argument to change my mind.
>
> I didn't say it was "just up to taste." I said it was "often a subjective
> matter."

For the record, when I said I wasn't sure what you meant, I wasn't being
rhetorical.  The "just up to taste" bit was something I feared you might
mean.  Glad to see I was wrong.

 It is certainly appropriate to ask for reasons, and I maintain
> that saying "well, I just really dig it - i don't know why i like it" is a
> good enough answer for that particular person to find value in and enjoy a
> work of art.

Sure, but that's not artistic value.  I could also just dig a rock, scuba
diving, or the number 3.

 Having gone this far, you should also define what exactly is
> meant by "value" and to what end the "value" of something needs to be
> judged. Is it the personal, emotional value of a work to an individual (how
> much more subjective can you get), or is it the inherent value of the work
> of art to the edification of onlookers/listeners, or the value of the work
> to the historical growth of the art form, or simply the value of human
> artifact to prosperity?

Fair enough.  And I admit I'm not sure what people mean when they call
Zorn's work "poor", although I'd bet they don't mean just that it has low
personal value for them.

> Reading interviews with Zorn describing his recording sessions with the
> Kronos, I disagree.

Where has he discussed this?

> Prove objectively why being predictable and derivative is an exaple of bad
> taste, and I might agree with you.

Well, I'm still not sure how you're using the words "objectively" and
"subjectively", but I'll try (briefly) to convince you.  Predictable music
simply fails to hold a reasonable person's attention.  Derivative music is
always less interesting than whatever music it's derived from.  The
combination is pretty bad.  Although, see below.
     (I haven't spent much time on the above because I don't take your
question seriously.  It's certainly true that any of the characteristics
we associate with good and bad art can be called into question.  But if
you call them all into question, you're just giving up on art.  That's
preferable to giving up on morality or physics, but it still seems like a
bad move.  And it's also likely to turn you into a boor.  Of course, so
is dissecting every beautiful thing that comes your way.)

> Apropos that proof, liking music for its
> predictability and derivative nature is different than liking music for its
> sonic content and musical qualities.

Sure it is.  The former shows bad taste.

> Even outside of that, hell, Haydn and
> Mozart and predictable and derivative. So is Beethoven. So is Bach. So is
> Schubert. So is Wagner. So is Verdi. So is Rossini. The quality of being
> predictable and derivative doesn't necessitate poor musical and artistic
> value.

I think your standards of originality are much higher than mine.  In any
case, I admit there may be cases where music is good despite being
predictable and derivative.  But my use of "despite" in the preceding
sentence is important.  If you convinced me that something were
predictable and derivative, I'd have to admit it was bad unless I could
come up with some compensating attribute.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:18:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, john shiurba wrote:

> Yet, in the end, it wasn't really what either said or didn't say about
> being called a fake (or whatever) that redeemed them and secured their
> legacy, it was simply the music itself, and each plugged away as long
> as it took, until finally (a substantial portion of) the public and the
> critics came around to see that work was sincere and legitimate.

I think this is an oversimplification.  Obviously, it's ultimately about
the music.  If that's not there, the public will have no work to see as
legitimate.  But if that work's going to be done where people can hear it,
somebody's going to have to talk about it.  I doubt that anyone on this
list would ever have heard Coleman, Braxton or Zorn without the help of
whatever reasonable, articulate person (critic, musician, or fan) pointed
out their merits to us.

> > 2) Zorn's "Poor" Playing and Composing
 *SNIP*
> > I wouldn't call him bad
> > at either of these, but I can imagine that someone who heard Zorn
> > primarily in these contexts might overreact to the hype (or whatever) and
> > describe his work as poor.
>
> and that would reflect, in this case little more than their ignorance. Not to imply that
> they need to like this music, or even to recognize any music after 1900 as having any
> value-- but judgements/criticism made without historical perspective are rarely of
> much value.

     I agree with most of what you've said here (including and especially
in the snipped section), but I suspect this last response isn't directed
at the point I meant to convey.  The contexts I had in mind were Zorn's
through-composed pieces (for his composition) and Masada (for his
saxophone playing).  Someone who approached this work with a solid
background in modern classical/avant-garde jazz and no other knowledge of
Zorn's work would likely not be very impressed by Zorn's
composing/playing.  Describing that work as poor would still be an
overreaction, but no worse than the one I bite down and swallow every time
I hear Wynton Marsalis.  But the only historical perspective lacking would
be the knowledge of how this work fits into Zorn's own musical history.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:43:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

It's often difficult to deal with this kind of thing in a specialized
audience like this one, but simply because WE all appreciate what Zorn
does, there's no reason to expect that every one else will, does, or
should.  Nor does it mean that all of those who don't think Zorn is an
important innovator are uneducated, stupid, or mis-informed.  No single
artist can serve as a litmus test for intelligence.

There are lots of people who don't like Zorn, just as there are lots of
people who don't like nearly anything.  Patrice accurately describes one
category of musician who frequently find Zorn to be "fake", those players
who may never get it together to make a name for themselves, but there are
other aesthetic stances from which Zorn's achievements may not seem
particularly mighty.  These range from the already referenced musicians who
feel it is necessary to focus on mastering a single style of performance, &
see Zorn as just a dabbler, to contemporary composers who feel that
improvisation is unimportant, to listeners who don't see the point in a
collage of many styles, or loud/fast music, or whatever.

There are also people who think that many of what are thought of as Zorn's
key compositional ploys (game structures, collage of differing styles,
etc.) have been done before, and they're often able to cite many precursors
in defense of this point of view.

If it's really important to you that everyone agrees with your own
aesthetic views, all of these people disliking Zorn's music may present a
problem.  But frankly, I think that if you don't have at least one friend
whose opinions about music, art, books, food, or whatever differ from your
own, you need to get out more, 'cause it really shouldn't matter that much.

Bests



Herb Levy
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:08:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

Christopher Hamilton, demi-God and Icon sez:
>Did that first Naked City record on Elektra sell that well?

    rumor is that it sold over 75,000 copies.

    mike


------------------------------

From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:35:55 +0100
Subject: Tzadik Festival 97

Hi,

I have some more info about the Tzadik Festival in Paris. Here is
the list of the gigs.

Can you comment my mail with:
who play? what CD? + a judgement about these bands / project.

11 Mars:
Klezmer Madness
Eyvind Kang Project
The Ruins
( I am disapointed no mention of Derek Bayley ????)

12 Mars:
Death Ambient
Plotkin Trio
Elegy
Anthony Coleman


Thanks for your knowledge and your advice...


Olivier


------------------------------

From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:37:51 +0100
Subject: Masada at mogador

Masada fans,

I saw in the zornography of Patrice that a Masada at Mogador was planned...

Can you tell me more about it?

Where recorded? When?


Olivier


ps: because there is a place in Paris called Mogador but I don't see the point?


------------------------------

From: "s.lucas" <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 13:00:31 +0100
Subject: Re: Mc Hellshit

>>I have got a 3"cd with Mc Hellshit & Dj Carhouse alias Yamatsuka Eye and
>>Otomo Yoshihide, label: Blast first. Eye on screming and Yoshihide on
>>turntables, tape et. It=B4s a live performance at a place called =
Discobay or
>>Disobay??? Does anybody know more about it?
>
>This is a recording of Otomo Yoshihide (DJ Carhouse) & Yamatsuka/Yamantaka
>Eye (MC Hellshit) live in '95 at Club Disobey in London.  The disc clocks
>in at around 19 minutes, with 9 tracks showing up on the CD, but 12 listed
>on the sleeve.  This is amazing stuff ... Basically it consists of Otomo

Two things:
They did not play Disobey in London, but at The Royal Festival Hall.
This CD is of the Disobey Manchester gig, the same weekend.

The Royal Festival Hall gig was (judging from the 3inch CD, I wasn't =
at that one) much better and is available (in part) on a CD from =
Shoei at Japan Overseas, Osaka. I think she put 4 tracks on it with =
around 8 or 9 pieces of music: about 20 minutes. Eye did the cover =
and re-edited the track ordering. I haven't heard this version yet, =
but the original CD-R was great. If you write to her, please tell her =
I sent you.

I have her email address somewhere.
simon lucas

simon lucas
research associate in multimedia
kingston university

[e-mail]
[e-mail]

http://infosys.kingston.ac.uk/isschool/staff/s.lucas/lucas.html


------------------------------

From: Matt Moffett <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:29:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Alexander von Schlippenbach

Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith
No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was
doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means).  I
already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything.  Does
anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like?  Just
curious.  Thanks in advance.

matt


------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:43:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Masada at mogador

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:37:51 +0100  NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier wrote:
>
> Masada fans,
>
> I saw in the zornography of Patrice that a Masada at Mogador was planned...

That's the restaurant in NYC (a real nice place for breakfast), not Paris.

> Can you tell me more about it?
>
> Where recorded? When?

This record was planned a long time ago but with the DIW flood, Tzadik
decided to wait a little bit.

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:15:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:29:45 -0500 (EST)  Matt Moffett wrote:
>
> Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith
> No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was
> doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means).  I
> already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything.  Does
> anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like?  Just
> curious.  Thanks in advance.

I know Schlippenbach's music and I do not see at all what these people
mean! Schlippenbach is one of the main European improvisers. His band
(Globe Unity) was, to my knowledge, the first to perform improv. in a
big band context (not to mention the idea of gathering musicians all
across Europe, at a time the EEC was just a dream :-).

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steve Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:08:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Alexander von Schlippenbach

>Von Schilppenbach's name has popped up a few times now on the Bungle/Faith
>No More list, and the only thing anyone says is that they heard he was
>doing the same in the '60's that Zorn does now (whatever that means).  I
>already tried a couple of web searches, but can't find anything.  Does
>anyone have any info on this guy, who he is, what his is like?  Just
>curious.  Thanks in advance.

Matt -

I realize you're not the source of this claim so please don't think for a
moment that I'm sounding off on you, far from it!  It's just that I think
this claim is misleading to say the least... what's it supposed to mean?
It doesn't really describe what Schlippenbach does and it comes off
sounding like yet another attempt to belittle Zorn's massive
accomplishments.  It's the same line of thinking that produced that whole
stupid "Zorn Sucks" argument that I think Patrice quite eloquently stamped
out a bit earlier.

Schlippenbach is a remarkable pianist/composer who founded the Globe Unity
Orchestra, nominally leads one of the greatest improv trios in the world
with Evan Parker and Paul Lovens, and now also leads the Berlin
Contemporary Jazz Orchestra which has recorded for ECM and FMP.  You can
find out lots more about him on Peter Stubley's excellent European Free
Improvisation page, at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mschlipp.html

Steve

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Smith
Public Relations Manager
Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works
74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 [phone] ext. 22
[e-mail]
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #49
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