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Subject:   zorn-list Digest V2 #48
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zorn-list Digest          Monday, 13 January 1997      Volume 02 : Number 048

In this issue:

    Re: James Plotkin
    Zorn a fake?
    Anthony Coleman Trio
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Derek Bailey + The Ruins
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Frith / Sclavis / Drouet in Paris
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Derek & the Ruins play at the TAKLOS (Switzerland) festival also ...
    Re: Zorn a fake?
    Cora, Marble, Taste
    RE: Sonic Youth / Yamatanka Eye
    Re: your mail
    Re: Anthony Coleman Trio
    The Horns of Dilemma

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (LP Thorpe)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:59:03 -0500
Subject: Re: James Plotkin

Patrick Carey wrote:

> ... Excellent stuff, makes me think it's the direction Plotkin wants to
>take OLD in for their next release on Relapse ...

Any idea when the Relapse release is coming out? Maybe Plotkin got tired of
the lack of support from Earache.

For anyone interested, I'd check out "Formula" on Earache. It is pop-based
music, I'd call it sort of progressive though (and don't imagine Yes).
Check out the segues on "last look". Ignore the jump-cut on "thug".

LP Thorpe




------------------------------

From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 97 18:05 WET
Subject: Zorn a fake?

I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting
conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience
that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these
guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes
poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems
pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this
obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read
seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that
share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that
opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out.

yours in Zornosity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Holtby)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:07:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Anthony Coleman Trio

I'm a digest subscriber, and I may have missed some of the discussion, but
someone mentioned that the Coleman trio is on the same exalted level as
Misha Mengelberg's "Who's Bridge".  Can this be true?  Are his tunes as
tuneful and the playing as much fun?

        Someone on rec.music.bluenote revealed that Mengelberg,Jones amd
Baron had recorded a follow-up trio session.  I presume that this will be
coming out on Avant, and wonder if anyone is in the loop.

        Thanks,

        Doug Holtby
        [e-mail]



------------------------------

From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:34:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

dennis summers wrote:
>
> I just came back from a record store where I got into an interesting
> conversation with the owner and a customer. Now it has been my experience
> that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these
> guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes
> poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems
> pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this
> obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read
> seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that
> share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that
> opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out.
>
> yours in Zornosity --ds
> ***Quantum Dance Works***
> ****http://ic.net/~denniss****
The same cries of "fake" are familiar to those who have been around for
a while.  Back when Ornette Coleman released his first few Atlantic LPs,
he was also called a fake, couldn't play or compose.  He was put down by
most musicians, like Miles Davis, and hated by the critics. Today he is
a living legend.  Same sort of stuff was said about Monk, Charlie
Parker, and even Beethoven.  LvB was totally misunderstood in his
lifetime.  I don't mean to imply that JZ is on the same level.   What is
a fake, anyway?  JZ has fans, people buy his stuff.  To call him a fake
is absurd.  Small minds...
Alan E Kayser
[e-mail]

------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:56:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Derek Bailey + The Ruins

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Torsten Nielsen wrote:

> I thought that Masuda had left... Is there a new bass player?

apparently, yes. but don't know who it is.

hasta. --dk

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


------------------------------

From: silver whale <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:50:20 +0200 (GMT+0200)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, dennis summers wrote:

> Are there "educated" listeners out there, that
> share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that
> opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out.

Well, I certainly can't claim myself as 'educated' listener - the more you
find out about music of anything, the more you become aware how little
you actually know... or can know - but I have studied music 'full-time'
for 6 years now so I may qualify - whatever I like it or not :) - as
'educated' listener.

Most, if not all, 'pioneers' are considered by some as 'fake'. Somebody
already pointed out O.Coleman as a fine example of this. Also,
considering the Zorn's peculiar attitude towards media and his fans - what
I enjoy for its entertainment value :) - I'm sure he doesn't want to
anything to make him less 'fake'. More likely he likes to engourage (?
propably spelled wrong) the media for these kind of reactions. Well, I
don't know, and propably it doesn't matter anyway... :)

Funnily, I once read a T.Moore interview where he expressed his liking of
Naked City's jump-cut music, but complained it being a little 'academic'.
So that zorn should be more 'punky' (if 'punky' = untrained, unacademic,
unstudied)   Well, you can't please 'em all...


 teemu

OnNow: demo of Giant Robot Sound System (a band I'm mixing at the moment,
  and no, it has no relation whatsoever to Buckethead :)

- -------------
e-mail: [e-mail]           "There was coffee. Life would go on."
Ruumen homepage:                      William Gibson:'The Winter Market'
http://www.siba.fi/~tkorpipa/ruumen.html


------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:48:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

My thoughts -

This topic centers around subjective criteria of what's good and what is
fake. I certainly don't have to make the ontological argument for art on a
list about John Zorn. :) As someone asked, what is a fake anyway? Well,
what ISN'T a fake? Aesthetics is a touchy subject, and finding value in any
particular art form is often a subjective matter. I wonder if the same
people who said Zorn is a fake would say that Schoenberg or Ives were fakes
(if they even know who Schoenberg and Ives were, outside of reading the
liner notes in a Naked City album).

As far as academic, objective evidence to the fact that Zorn is credible as
a musician and composer (in our day and age, at least), suffice it to say
that I don't think Kronos Quartet goes around commissioning works from
fakes - they certainly don't have that much free time. Or that phenomenal
players like Dave Douglas, Bill Frisell, or Joey Baron even associate with
Zorn. Furthermore, after reading Stephen Drury's published article and
part-critical-analysis in <Perspectives of New Music> (v32, no1, "A View
from the Piano Bench or Playing John Zorn's Carny for Fun and Profit"), I
would dare say Zorn knows exactly what he's doing when he composes
non-improvised music, and that he has an good (if ironic) sense of
musicality when it comes to his writing.

To say John Zorn is a bad player isn't saying much either. Miles Davis had
a far from perfect tone in terms of trumpet technique, but that's what made
him Miles Davis. Sesto Bruscantini is one of the most heralded basso buffo
actors in the history of opera, and he had a comparitively sub-standard
technique as well. Saying someone is simply a "bad player" is not looking
at all the parameters of good musicianship.

In the end, it's all what you like.


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



------------------------------

From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:26:02 +0100
Subject: Frith / Sclavis / Drouet in Paris

Last Saturday :

I saw a creation by :

* Frith: guitar and several objects that can make sounds
* Sclavis: clarinet and sax
* Drouet: drums

This trio was great and very creative. They played one song (can we call it a song?)
for more than one hour and they played as a game between them.

Their technique was absolutely perfect and it was great to see these guys having fun
with their instruments. It reminds me the CD of Zorn and Frith (The art of memory)
with drums and "percussions" (sorry I am French !!) with a much better sax or clarinet.

(I think Sclavis has a musicality in his play that Zorn does not have... but sure, Zorn can play
higher and in ultra sound !!!!)


For those in Europe:
Joey Baron 's down will play in Paris in February
Frith will be back in June and July
Zorn with Tzadik (no more info, yet) in March
Zorn with Masada in April


Olivier


ps: if you are interested, I can write again something about the gig and CD of Tom Cora's roof


------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:19:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, dennis summers wrote:

> Now it has been my experience
> that people who are familiar with JZ tend to love him or hate him, but these
> guys were aguing that he's a fake -that he actually plays poorly, writes
> poorly and generally is overhyped (although the hype such as it is seems
> pretty quiet compared to most pop music). Anyway, those of us reading this
> obviously think pretty highly of the guy, and all the reviews I've ever read
> seem to share that opinion. Are there "educated" listeners out there, that
> share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that
> opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out.


A bunch of interesting stuff here.  I'll just comment on a couple of
things.

1) Hype: I do get the feeling that there's quite a lot of hype surrounding
Zorn, simply because he does have this peculiar "avant-superstar" status,
but I can't figure out where the hype's coming from.  He doesn't really
get much coverage in jazz magazines, and his coverage in magazines like
_The Wire_ and _Option_ isn't particularly greater than that afforded a
number of other adventurous musicians.  So how is it that Zorn has managed
to acquire the cache (not to mention the cash) to keep Avant and Tzadik
going?  Did that first Naked City record on Elektra sell that well?

2) Zorn's "Poor" Playing and Composing:  This obviously depends a great
deal on the standard being used.  If your standard of composition is based
on 19th Century European orchestral music, zorn has not established
himself as an outstanding composer.  If your standard of playing is based
on bebop, Zorn has not established himself as an outstanding player.  Many
smart, educated people use these sorts of standards, and will thus
consider Zorn to measue up poorly on one or both counts.
     Personally, I don't think Zorn's through-composed work is nearly as
interesting as his filecard or game compositions, and I also don't think
that his playing in more conventional jazz contexts measures up to, say,
his Masada cohorts (although, to his credit, the Masada work shows him to
be an excellent writer of heads for improvising).  I wouldn't call him bad
at either of these, but I can imagine that someone who heard Zorn
primarily in these contexts might overreact to the hype (or whatever) and
describe his work as poor.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:36:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:

> This topic centers around subjective criteria of what's good and what is
> fake. I certainly don't have to make the ontological argument for art on a
> list about John Zorn. :) As someone asked, what is a fake anyway? Well,
> what ISN'T a fake? Aesthetics is a touchy subject, and finding value in any
> particular art form is often a subjective matter.

I'm not sure what this means.  Artistic merit is certainly not just up to
taste. It's appropriate to ask for reasons when I say I find value in a
piece of art, and I can be convinced by argument to change my mind.

> As far as academic, objective evidence to the fact that Zorn is credible as
> a musician and composer (in our day and age, at least), suffice it to say
> that I don't think Kronos Quartet goes around commissioning works from
> fakes - they certainly don't have that much free time.

Hmmm.  Kronos have done some fine work, but they're also guilty sometimes
of trendiness and poor judgement (e.g. TV medleys, "Purple Haze").  I
wouldn't put it past them to commission work from Zorn simply because he's
perceived as hip.  Maybe that Zorn character is all hype.

> In the end, it's all what you like.

No, it's not.  If Zorn's music were predictable and derivative, it would
be bad, and if you liked it, you'd be showing yourself to have bad taste.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]

Chris's Pet Peeve of the Week: kneejerk relativism


------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:44:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, ALAN E. KAYSER wrote:

> The same cries of "fake" are familiar to those who have been around for
> a while.  Back when Ornette Coleman released his first few Atlantic LPs,
> he was also called a fake, couldn't play or compose.  He was put down by
> most musicians, like Miles Davis, and hated by the critics. Today he is
> a living legend.  Same sort of stuff was said about Monk, Charlie
> Parker, and even Beethoven.  LvB was totally misunderstood in his
> lifetime.  I don't mean to imply that JZ is on the same level.   What is
> a fake, anyway?  JZ has fans, people buy his stuff.  To call him a fake
> is absurd.  Small minds...

Well, these arguments have force because sometimes they're on target.
People also cried "fake" over progressive rock, and, in the main, they
were right.  Are the people decrying Kenny G today going to look
ridiculous in a few decades?  Let's hope not.  I don't think you can so
readily dismiss these accusations.  If the accusations are wrong, we ought
to be able to show that they're wrong.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 03:10:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, dennis summers wrote:

> Are there "educated" listeners out there, that
> share this attitude of "fakery?" Has anyone read anything taking that
> opinion? If so, just out of curiosity I'd like to check it out.

In the April 1994 issue of _The Wire_, Steve Albini is very dismissive of
Zorn in an interview.  In a recent issue of _Cadence_, Bob Rusch
interviews Joey Baron and questions Zorn's sincerity as an artist; Baron
of course leaps to Zorn's defense in his likable, mild-mannered way. (I
can't find my copy of this issue right now, but I think it's November
1996.)  Cook and Morton express worries about Zorn's opportunism in the
3rd edition of the _Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD_, but they like all the
records they talk about, so thay may not count.  In his articles on Zorn
reprinted in _Outcats_ and _Bebop and Nothingness_, Francis Davis is
fairly critical of the game compositions and of _Spy Vs. Spy_ while
praising some of Zorn's other work.
     The problem here seems to be that no one devotes articles or reviews
to trashing Zorn, so criticisms are only made as an aside.  He's just not
quite sufficiently prominent that people who hate his work feel obligated
to write about him at all.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David FENECH)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 10:21:20 +0100
Subject: Derek & the Ruins play at the TAKLOS (Switzerland) festival also ...

 > From: Torsten Nielsen <[e-mail]>
 > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:13:12 +0100 (MET)
 > Subject: Derek Bailey + The Ruins
 >
 > I just read that Derek Bailey will "probably" be playing two concerts
 > with The Ruins in England in a few months.
 > I thought that Masuda had left... Is there a new bass player?
 >
 > Jonas

This year Derek Bailey will also play with RUINS at the TAKLOS festival
of Basel , Switzerland. I can provide more info if you want.

david

------------------------------

From: Sean Winchester <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:14:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Zorn a fake?

- ------------70CF51F64E542
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

this string of messages from C.H.  makes me want to chew my teeth

it's a truck stop feeling
a buffet feeling
a that's why i dropped out of college feeling

weird and gross criticism and like all critics very trivial and unfelt
and totally screwed up in a confusing wagon of moron chops of  mefuck
and drivel

very disgusting

keil winchester

- ------------70CF51F64E542
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<HTML><BODY>

<DT>this string of messages from C.H.  makes me want to chew my teeth</DT>

<DT> </DT>

<DT>it's a truck stop feeling</DT>

<DT>a buffet feeling</DT>

<DT>a that's why i dropped out of college feeling</DT>

<DT> </DT>

<DT>weird and gross criticism and like all critics very trivial and unfelt
and totally screwed up in a confusing wagon of moron chops of  mefuck
and drivel</DT>

<DT> </DT>

<DT>very disgusting</DT>

<DT> </DT>

<DT>keil winchester</DT>

</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------------70CF51F64E542--


------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Anders Fransson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:15:20 +0200
Subject: Cora, Marble, Taste

Nguyen van Tan,

Wrote about Tom Cora`s Roof. Yes I am interested!

Is there anyone how could sell me a copy of that
Zorn Marble or Steel Box?

If you like Zorn, you like him. there are people how like kenny g, I don`t.


Sincerely
 Anders
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
Anders Fransson, Biblioteket H=F6gskolan i =D6rebro, 701 82  =D6REBRO
e-post: [e-mail]
Tel [phone]
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -


------------------------------

From: Matt Walsh <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 09:32:00 PST
Subject: RE: Sonic Youth / Yamatanka Eye

>>On a different note, has anybody heard the Sonic
>>Youth/Yamantanka Eye collaboration 12''? I think
>>it is called TV shit, but for some reason the liner notes refer to one
of
>>Stockhausen's pieces...Have they covered the piece
>>(or parts of it, anyway) or is it just a joke?

The album/E.P. (if you can call it that - I think it's only about 9
minutes long) is called "TV Shit" and is on Thurston Moore's Estatic
Peace label. The "album" is multiple versions of the same song, which is
a cover of D.C. punk band Youth Brigade's "No II". From what I remember
reading, They put Stockhausen on the CD spine as a joke so record stores
that weren't paying attention would put it in the Stockhausen section
(boy, what a suprise this would be to some unknowing Stockhausen
enthusiast!).
  I'm not too sure if it's worth spending a lot of money on it, but it
definitely is an interesting CD. If you find it used (maybe sold by one
of those Stockhausen people) then you may want to pick it up.

Matt Walsh
[e-mail]

------------------------------

From: Matt Moffett <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:57:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: your mail

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, N Vassiliou wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> I was wondering if there are any news of a new Mr. Bungle or Mike Patton release in the near future. It's been a long time
> since Disco Volante...


Someone already mentioned the Secret Chiefs 3, so I won't go into it
except to say it's probably the closest thing Spruance has done to Zorn
yet.  As far as a new Bungle album, Danny Heifetz said in a recent
interview that they had plans to go back into the studio after their
australian tour.  The tour ended about a month ago, so I don't really know
the status right now...there's talk about a complete noise album, or a
death metal album, or both, but who knows.  It will at least be another
year, because Patton is going to be very busy with Faith No More stuff
relatively soon (new album in the spring).


------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:37:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Anthony Coleman Trio

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:07:27 -0800 (PST)  Holtby wrote:
>
> I'm a digest subscriber, and I may have missed some of the discussion, but
> someone mentioned that the Coleman trio is on the same exalted level as
> Misha Mengelberg's "Who's Bridge".  Can this be true?  Are his tunes as
> tuneful and the playing as much fun?

No, it is different but both are trio records (with piano) and very original.
I put both next to each other because of many similarity in the form/format/
originality. I also feel that there are some common points between Mengelberg
and Coleman (they seem to use the same kind of razors, for example :-). Both
have a oblique way of playing musique and their covers are rarely predictable.
To conclude: the music is different but both are really refreshing "jazz"
piano trios.

>         Someone on rec.music.bluenote revealed that Mengelberg,Jones amd
> Baron had recorded a follow-up trio session.  I presume that this will be
> coming out on Avant, and wonder if anyone is in the loop.

I would definitely like to know more about it.

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: Greg Mills <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:45:36 -0700
Subject: The Horns of Dilemma

All-

Way back when, I saw the Violent Femmes live ('88?) and the Horns of
Dilemma appeared as backup.  Now, on the album "Hallowed Ground" (which
has since disappeared from my possession) Zorn is listed as the Game-call
Meister.

I was wondering if JZ toured with the VF as a member of the Horns of
Dilemma or what?

And were the Horns of Dilemma extant as a self sufficient
performance/recording...uh...unit, or where they  a  one off for "Hallowed
Ground"?

Anyone? I cannot continue work until I know this thing.

Greg Mills
Copywriter

ADVERTISING:

The bastard offspring of Art and Commerce kill their parents and go watch
roller derby.



------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #48
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